The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

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Tilly

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Hi Janet,

PA and NYLA have a lot in common. Both prey on aspiring new writers. Neither are what they claim to be.

A literary agency sells books to publishers, and derives its income from this. NYLA derives its money from fees and doesn't sell books to publishers.

A commercial publisher buys the work of writers and sells books to the general public. PA claims to be a publisher. In fact it claims to be a 'traditional' publisher and not a POD. It's actually an expensive printer that sells books to authors. Its business model isn't designed to sell to the public, but that's what it wants its authors to think.

If you want a professional writing career, this board is a wonderful resource packed full of helpful information. Neither of the two companies you're involved in will help if your goal is to be a professional writer. Your PA book is not a professional writing credit. You're still a writer, and finishing a book is in itself an achievement to be proud of, but if you do submit to publishers and agents, it will make a poor impression if you mention your PA book.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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First, welcome, Janet.

Please take some time and look around. This is only one thread among many on the Bewares Board, and the Bewares Board is only one board among many at the Water Cooler. We have lots of information on writing here.

Next, the New York Literary Agency, fascinating as it is, is off-topic here.

You're probably looking for these threads:

The New York Literary Agency
The Literary Agency Group

...and their various off-shoots. Please follow the links you'll find in those threads. It's educational.

Now to your questions:

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway?

The answer is: Nothing. Not a darned thing. POD is a small but interesting part of the entire publishing picture. I use it myself, for appropriate projects. (For example, the thing that's currently in my sig line: http://www.lulu.com/content/219003 which is a chapbook I put together for a class I'll be teaching later this month. It's so the students can have some of my stories. Cost to me: Zero. Time expended: About fifteen minutes. It's just a fancy Xerox copy.)

POD is both a business model and a technology. As a technology it's used by many, many publishers for assorted purposes -- where you need a short run with minimal set-up costs.

As a business model, however, POD (and, before you ask, there's no difference at all between "print on demand" and "publish on demand") is incompatible with bookstore shelving. That's because POD only prints books after an order is received, while normal trade publication prints before orders are received.

I've put together a page of definitions that might help here: http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/publishing.htm

My problems with PublishAmerica are these:

They deny being a POD publisher, which they clearly are. They say:
FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them.
This is untrue. In addition, since their business model (selling books to their own authors for resale by those authors) is the vanity press business model, they have two lies in that sentence alone.

Second, PublishAmerica strongly implies that their books can/will be shelved in bookstores "from sea to shining sea," when they know that bookstore shelving for their books in general is uncommon, and not a single one of their titles has ever achieved national distribution.

PublishAmerica says:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
For a book to be stocked by a bookstore, someone high in the hierarchy must decide to order it. Typically, it's not the store manager who makes such decisions, unless he runs an independent store. Larger chains such as Waldenbooks, Barnes & Noble, and Borders have "buyers" who select which titles are to be stocked. Oftentimes, they want to see some noise happening before they move.

They know, or should know, however, that this is not how bookstore shelving works in the major chains, and they must be aware that not a single one of their authors has ever been able to accomplish it. With over 17,000 authors (as they claim), surely by now one of them would have managed to get national shelving if it could be done.
[/font]
It's possible to use PublishAmerica just as a printer, to fill your personal need for copies of your book, but in those cases, first, it's a very expensive printer, and second, you'll have given up your rights for seven years.

I don't have a problem with Print on Demand. Nor do I have a problem with vanity publication. What I do have a problem with is false and misleading advertising.

I will leave to others the question of whether PublishAmerica honestly pays the royalties that they owe, or if they honestly account for sales.
 

akaa1a

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Yep...it's royalty time. Lightbulbs are sparking everywhere!

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10766

Do I have your attention?
I was recently reffered to the New York Barnes & Noble branch and spoke to someone concerning The Chaos Cycle's nonreturnable status. They informed me that they only use Lightningsource, and that I need to contact PA's support team and have them give Lightningsource the necessary info. I was told by PA that the book is only returnable through Ingrams, but according to the person at Barnes & Noble, they won't deal with Ingrams. Oh yeah, Lightning ource only offers a five percent discount. Does this sound familiar? If so, does anyone know of what solution was suggested. Is this the same for all Barnes & Noble stores?

Thanks,

*********************

What the heck is that all about? That's crazy and confusing - I don't know what to tell you, except to possibly ask PA to explain this situation to you. They must have come across this before...

*************************

I was told by PA that the books are only returnable if ordered through Ingrams.

*********************

Exactly - and since when do bookstores order directly from a printer? But then, what do I know?
 

Tilly

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Yes, PA does require you to register your own copyright. Getting printed with PA costs you $29 (I think, if you take off the one dollar 'advance') even before the high pressure sales tactics to get the authors to buy their own books.

My understanding is that commercial publishers register the copyright, and pay the fee as part of the cost of publishing.
 

Aconite

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POZKIN has information on Phil Dolan's arbitration win against PA in December, as well as what little can be released about a second author who also won against PA a few days ago.
 
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Tirjasdyn

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Tilly said:
Yes, PA does require you to register your own copyright. Getting printed with PA costs you $29 (I think, if you take off the one dollar 'advance') even before the high pressure sales tactics to get the authors to buy their own books.

My understanding is that commercial publishers register the copyright, and pay the fee as part of the cost of publishing.

Yes that's how I understand it, but I didn't know PA made the author do that themselves.

I wish English courses included (or required) some publishing business material. It could save a lot of tears and $.
 

SC Harrison

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janetbellinger said:
I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway? I mean, what if you don't mind marketing your own work and buying and reselling your own books?

Take some time to observe the behavior of many (especially new) authors on the PAMB. They are under the impression that their manuscript was "selected" because of its quality, and that PA is "taking a chance" on them. Why do they believe this? Because of the misleading information on the PA website and the wording of the query acceptance e-mails. This plays upon the vanity of the author, which is where the name of this type of publishing comes from.

While you may have figured out the difference between PA and trade publishers, many others do not. It's these folks that need someone to look out for them, by striving to force PA to stop misleading people.
 

Sarashay

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Hello, Shiny New Thread!

For those of you new here, please check out my unofficial FAQ (it's also in my signature) which should answer at least some of your questions.
 

AmandaPA

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Another PA Author Bites The Dust

My first PA book was released in May and I spent $1000 more or less on promotions. I had one book signing where I sold 18 books. I recently signed a new contract with PA and shortly after I signed, I began to smell a rat. The first time around I was treated with respect by everyone I dealt with at PA and they handled my book very well. It was totally different this time. The first person was rude and treated me like an idiot. I began to do some research and discovered that the discount for my book was lowered to 5%. That was it for me. I was sent the link to this site and have been quietly lurking for awhile. I did post once before asking about the contract with PA.

BTW, my first royalty check was for $3.00 even though I know that I sold around 40 books.

I'm pleased to meet everyone and hope I'm welcome to express myself openly here even if I disagree with you at times.

Amanda :)
 

DaveKuzminski

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Welcome, Amanda. I have heard, but do not know who is involved yet, that there is a class action arbitration forming. Apparently, class actions are possible with arbitration and that may be the best way for you to get your books back from PA. Hang onto your documentation for the promotion expenses you undertook expecting PA to do its part. Those are important as you might get awarded some return based on that from PA. You might want to check the Mindsight Series web site for the class action information. I think it's at http://www.mindsightseries.com/ and there are more former PA writers there who will welcome you.
 

SeanDSchaffer

First, I'd like to welcome Janet, Ilovepensandpaper, and AmandaPA to the AW boards. I hope you all enjoy the site, and be sure to take a look around. This thread is only one part of a good-sized forum that all about writing; I'm sure you'll find some good information not only about publishers here, but also about the Craft.

Second, I am a PA author who, in 2003, submitted a Fantasy/Science Fiction novel to PublishAmerica. I signed their contract with the understanding that PA would be using not only POD technology, but also offset technology, to print my book. I understood them as being a traditional or what is commonly referred to as a commercial publisher, and I was of the understanding that my books would be on bookstore shelves around the country and possibly the world.

According to the Contract, PublishAmerica was to make the volume 'attractive and substantial-looking.' They did not fulfill that promise. I can understand a trade paperback that is 259 pages long, but not with the cover that graced the front of the book. When I saw the book cover for the first time, I laughed out of sheer embarrassment. I had to have it corrected before I would approve it, and even the approved cover was not what I had been hoping for.

The cover, as PA originally published it, was a drawing that I did. I specifically told them I did not want them to use the actual drawing as the cover, but rather to use it as an inspiration for an artist's rendition done in a professional manner. They went ahead and pasted the drawing I did onto the cover, against my explicit wishes not to have it done, put a scroll around it, and called it good.

I will give PA this: they did allow me to make a new cover and submit it to them. This new cover is available at PA's site, but nowhere else that I have looked. All the major online stores still have my old cover advertised.

Also, my paperback, 259-page book, sells retail for $21.95. This price would be good for a trade-paperback of maybe 500 pages, but not roughly half that. A comparable book from a legitimate house would generally sell for a little over fifteen dollars.

I received my first royalty check in March of 2005, and for a six-month period of time (including pre-order time, which started in August of 2004) I received a royalty check of $7.71 for six volumes sold in six months.

I would definitely recommend against going with PublishAmerica if you're searching for a good publisher. They are not worth the time or the trouble.


Sean D. Schaffer
Wyverinia Chronicles
1-4137-2354-3


--I'm on the second page! Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!--
 
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Ken Schneider

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PA is not a good choice if you want someone other than the family to read your book.

Think it will go into bookstores.

Think you will get rich.

Think you can quit your day job.

Think PA accepted your book on merit.

They accept anything that comes across the computer in Frederick, until the daily quota is filled. If you get rejected, that is why. Resubmit in the morning, and you'll be in.

And remember lurkers, if you bought your own books, you paid to publish. You were funneled right into the scam.

It's called reverse vanity, you paid on the back end. Remember how you told all of your townsfolk you were published, then couldn't get the book in stores? Then what did you do to save face, right, you bought books to sell from the trunk of your car.

That's what happened to me, 1,574.00 dollars worth of books, most I sold for 5.00 bucks.

Don't buy your own books from PA! You'll lose your hind-end. Pa will make money, and you'll get a check for 2, maybe 3 bucks every six months.

Why to go MoeP. I bet your family is proud of you, or do you lie to them as well.

Try selling books to the reading public, the writer has already read their own work.

You write a book, PA prints it and makes all the money.

Edited for this:

Tisk, tisk, your dear mother works for PA too, Moe? Shame, shame.
 
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Nexusman

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Here's one...

Pulled from the PAMB:

Is this first time some one from India has got his book published at PA?
I have co authored it with my friend Rebecca from CA.
I have completed with my I.T Engineering and doing my Master's now in Software Programming.

Its really great to be in such a league of distinguished authors at age of 23.


I wonder if PA will even bother shipping books that far when/if this guy breaks down and has to start buying them. Or, are they already considering adding PublishEastAsia to their rip-off conglomerate?

-Nick
 

JennaGlatzer

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Hi all. I think you're heading in a good direction for the new thread-- let's continue it:

In these first few pages of the new thread, I'd love to see people tell their own stories and summarize why we're doing this. This way, newbies don't have to look too far to get the jist of it.

(I'll edit this post to write in my own reasons later.)
 

NancyMehl

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Hello to all the new people!

I was one of PA's most successful authors. My royalty statements show that I sold over 1,000 books. I also bought and sold another 300 myself. It is interesting to note that Larry Clopper, in a newspaper interview, stated that I actually sold "thousands" of books. So...there could be more sales than were reported to me. Who knows? I do have proof of several sales after my contract was cancelled - and I have never been paid for those books.

Yes, my contract was cancelled by PA. Why? They invoked the infamous paragraph 24, claiming that there was no demand for my book. This was not long after I contacted them about a deal I wanted to put together with Kroger stores in my home state. I think the real reason they cancelled my contract was because I didn't fit their business model. They want authors to buy their own books. They not only make more money - but the authors have to pay upfront. PA doesn't like to wait for its money!

That's my story... I hope it helps someone.

Glad you're here. There are a lot of people who care about you and what you've been through.

Nancy
 

Ilovepensandpaper

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I just wanted to say hello to all who welcomed me here and to everyone here anyway. I am keeping my head up, and I have a story idea in my head based on the PA stuff. Boy, what drama can bring!
A Pharmacist at Walmart wanted to know how to get my book since she didn't have a computer. I didn't have the number on me though. My former co-workers want copies too, but wanted free copies. I had to tell my friend to tell them they had to purchase.
My sister likes the book, and I read some to my parents. I plan to read some at a Black History Month event. I guess there is some good. What is that saying about a cloud having a silver lining? I can't remember how it goes, but it rings true.
I got a call from legal aid but I was gone. Now I have to wait until Monday. Can't wait to see about that.
The mentioned concept about copywrite and collections of poetry versus each individual poem is interesting and something I will look into. I can't remember who brought it up, but thanks because I would not have thought of that. It is great to have more than one person working on a matter.
Well, I have to go for now. Until next time.
 

aruna

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James D. Macdonald said:
586 sold in 2005, 23 so far in 2006.

Alas that the Indepence Books program is apparently no more! AN would have been a shoo-in for that coveted status.

(For those who came in late, the Independence Books program was a special deal by PublishAmerica a few years ago. If a book sold 500 copies, it would be made returnable! A half-dozen (out of thousands of titles) qualified. Then ... they stopped doing that.)

Valentine's Day is coming up. Give that special someone a copy of Atlanta Nights!

Did it count, if the authors bought those books themselves?
 

astonwest

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aruna said:
Did it count, if the authors bought those books themselves?
The 500 didn't automatically make a book returnable under the IB program. It "qualified" for the program, and PA decided whether or not to allow it in. I imagine there were many out there who probably tried to buy their way in without success...very sad.
 

Aconite

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Ilovepensandpaper said:
The mentioned concept about copywrite and collections of poetry versus each individual poem is interesting and something I will look into.
If you're in the U.S, you can contact your local branch of Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts and ask about that. Make sure the lawyer has experience with publishing and intellectual property law specifically. Not just any lawyer will do.

Good luck!
 

Aconite

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If it's still practical to do it, leaving a note that a post has been moved to Overflow (or elsewhere) would help avoid both confusion and accusations of censorship. PA royalties will be coming out in a few weeks, and we'll be getting a new influx of guests who don't understand the local customs.

Lurkers and new members: If you wrote or read a post here that you don't see now, it was moved to the NEPAT Overflow for being off topic.
 

Ol' Fashioned Girl

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Jenna's wish is my command. This is the chapter I wrote for 'True Stories about Publish America'. It's not as long as some stories I've read about them, and it's not as painful as some I've read. But it's definitely true.

------
I'd been through the 'submit/reject' mill fifteen or so years back - after winning every contest I'd ever entered with my two completed novels - and since I didn't really have that fire in the belly one needs to become a 'published' author, I tucked both manuscripts away, until an internet friend told me he'd be absent for a while to finish the 'contractual requirements' to get his book finished and on the street. The conversation went from one thing to another, ending with his graciously offering to introduce me to his 'editor'. Since I believed him to be a good writer from what I'd seen of his work, I contacted his 'editor' and was invited to submit my book to PA.

I didn't rush into the relationship. A couple of weeks passed while I did some research into PA, and found a few negatives - nothing like what you see on the 'net today - then all the cheerleader hooha on the PA Message Board about the complaints coming from 'about 8 disgruntled authors'. I let the invitation drift off my radar screen and actually forgot about it until I received a letter, via snailmail, from PA wanting to know where my submission was, hoping I hadn't decided to withdraw it from consideration.

Even though I was uneasy about the things I'd seen on the 'net, I decided that if worse came to worst, I could always clear my desk of everything unimportant and make PA's misery my new hobby. I had a different reason for wanting to be published, anyway: a friend and I had an agreement. If I'd keep trying to get published, she'd keep trying to get her invention patented and distributed. Unfortunately, she died of lung cancer in the middle of our 'agreement'. If nothing else, I'd end up with one copy of my book for my husband and one to bury with my friend.

Like everyone else who's got a book with PA, I got the letter telling me that my novel was going to be published, 'given the chance it deserves'. I signed the contract - after having a lawyer look it over! - and fulfilled my obligations under it. I went above and beyond on those obligations - like so many other PA authors have done - because the expectation locally was for a signing. For reviews. For interviews. I fulfilled those obligations, too - or will by the time Christmas gets here. Unfortunately, the lawyer who looked the contract over isn't experienced in publishing contracts - it looked okay to him so I took him at his word. I didn't understand the weasel wording it contained about royalties. And it never told me there wasn't a returns policy. It never said my book would cost 30% more than others in my genre. It didn't mention that getting it those 'brick and mortar' stores was going to be nigh on to impossible.

Bottom line, the Never-Ending PublishAmerica thread and the others associated with it (P&E, PA Sucks, etc.) are providing an incredible service to writers all over the world. We'll never know how many people we save... and those who sign anyway, well... there's nothing anyone can do to stop them if they do so after reading any of what's available today.

Just as a final warning: As of October 22, 2005, there are currently 11540 PA books available on Amazon.com. I know for a fact that 15 copies of my book were sold from there within the last two weeks - I bought them myself to fulfill one of my obligations for a signing. With those whopping 15 sales, my book is currently #15 (coincidence, or what?) on the 'PA Bestseller' list on that site.

Does that tell anyone how abysmally the other 11525 below me are selling?

I'll get my money back - the full cost of each - on those fifteen copies because they're already sold. A high percentage of the authors who buy their own books never recover even the 50% they pay when they gratefully accept PA's offer to sell them what they should be providing for free!

Caveat Emptor! And I mean that in its truest sense of the term, because that's just what you'll be: the buyer.

Not the 'published author'.

The buyer.

The disappointed.

The embarrassed.

The one who, in the end, really did pay to play.

-----

As an addendum: I got my 1099-Misc from PA yesterday. My 'account number' consisted of my social security number, a dash, and a four digit number in the 2000s. I have a theory that four digit number represents all the 'active' authors that are left of the 15-16-17000 (or whatever moving-target number of) 'happy authors' they claim today.

Bottom bottom line: my book didn't get the chance it deserves. It's NOT in book stores from sea-to-shining-sea. It IS returnable now, with a lousy 5% discount - which means that a book store will LOSE MONEY (just like I've done) being involved with PA, or it will have to jack the price up to make their profit - on a book that's already priced at least $5 over other books in its genre. And while I AM still one of their 'thousands' of 'authors', trapped for another seven years with this baby, I'm certainly NOT a happy one.

Please don't join me.
 
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