Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

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rwam

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Actually, rwam said that Zimmerman probably acted on prejudice based on race. Rwam is claiming that's not racism. It is, though.

I think you and I have different interpretations of the word 'racism', Celia. Technically, yours is probably more right than mine. If you have a prejudice based on someone's race, that's technically a form of racism. However, when I throw the word 'racism' around, I'm using it to mean "hate based upon race". So, when I say I think Zimmerman's view of Trayvon (a black kid wearing a hoodie looking suspicious) was probably prejudiced, I'm also saying I don't think it proves he also hated Trayvon just because he was black. Again, just my opinion, and nope, whether the killing was rooted in prejudice or racism doesn't wipe away the pain Trayvon's family feels right now, nor does it absolve the injustice.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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I noticed something horrible and familiar about the stories flying around about Trayvon Martin, the stories that try to justify his murder and excuse his killer and the local police of any responsibility (I'm not saying any of these are true, only that they have been presented):

1. He was wearing provocative and suspicious clothes.

2. What was he doing there anyway? And at that time? He must have been up to no good.

3. He had a bad character -- not anything official, but we dug up lots of suggestive little things.

4. He provoked the attack -- no proof of course, but we bet he did.

...

I got a sinking feeling as I recognized them all. These are the common attacks on rape victims, the questions asked when one is trying to force responsibility on the victim for a crime.

(I have to think about this, because my assumption before had been that people, especially women, hurl these questions at rape victims because they are afraid of becoming victims themselves, and treat these questions as a sort of incantation of it-can't-happen-to-ME. I think that applies here too. The George Zimmerman-Florida police case suggests that they are a broad sort of smear to isolate the victim from proper society so as to deny that anything grave has happened, and thus to deny that one is in any danger oneself.)
 

Devil Ledbetter

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It's interesting to me that a person could be suspicious and fearful because of the color of someone's skin, and KILL that person, and that others get het up if anyone so much as suspects the killer of racism.

It's almost as though suspecting someone of racism is a bigger social faux pas than pulling a gun on an unarmed black kid and blasting him to kingdom come. It's so horrible to be suspected of racism that we shouldn't even suspect racism in the face of suspiciously racist actions resulting in the death of an unarmed black child.

We should all just withhold judgment, because judgment is bad. The only people you'll deign to judge negatively are those who wonder if George Zimmerman was a racist.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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It's interesting to me that a person could be suspicious and fearful because of the color of someone's skin, and KILL that person, and that others get het up if anyone so much as suspects the killer of racism.

It's almost as though suspecting someone of racism is a bigger social faux pas than pulling a gun on an unarmed black kid and blasting him to kingdom come. It's so horrible to be suspected of racism that we shouldn't even suspect racism in the face of suspiciously racist actions resulting in the death of an unarmed black child.

We should all just withhold judgment, because judgment is bad. The only people you'll deign to judge negatively are those who wonder if George Zimmerman was a racist.

This.

Person A kills person B.
Person A says they killed person B.
Killing people is wrong except in very narrow circumstances.
The burden of proof in such situations shifts from society proving that a crime has been committed by person A to proving that this action falls into one of those narrow sets of circumstances.

A person who has killed does not have the right to complain that their honor has been imputed if someone challenges their motives. Society can and should look with a jaundiced eye on all such claims because of how serious the taking of a life is.
 

robeiae

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Explain again how someone can be so fundamentally prejudiced that they'll follow and shoot to death an unarmed black kid ... yet that's not racism? It's just uh, forgivable prejudice with a side of paranoia?

Go ahead and forgive him, Rwam. Make excuses for George Zimmerman until you're blue in the face. I still want to see this come before a grand jury.
I don't see rwam making excuses.

As I noted above, racism or no racism on the part of Zimmerman, he still did a horrible thing; his actions weren't justified in the least.

The need to make Zimmerman's racism a matter of absolute fact is--to me--troubling, insofar as what he did was over the line, period. Supposing racism on his part neither makes his actions more heinous nor does it make him more guilty.

He may be a card-carrying member of the KKK; he may be the biggest racist East of the Mississippi. But right now, we don't really know, one way or the other.
 

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It's interesting to me that a person could be suspicious and fearful because of the color of someone's skin, and KILL that person, and that others get het up if anyone so much as suspects the killer of racism.

It's almost as though suspecting someone of racism is a bigger social faux pas than pulling a gun on an unarmed black kid and blasting him to kingdom come.

Maybe, but isn't it just as possible pointing a finger and shouting "Racist" has become a go to way of distancing ourselves, of saying "Not one of us.", "Not in my home.", "Not me."

Or, you know, this:
The George Zimmerman-Florida police case suggests that they are a broad sort of smear to isolate the victim from proper society so as to deny that anything grave has happened, and thus to deny that one is in any danger oneself.)

We can assume it all we want, but as it stands now we don't know that, if Martin had been other than black/a stranger/wearing a hoodie, Zimmerman would not have found some other reason to become aggressive and confront him.
 

vsrenard

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I'm inclined to give Zimmerman the benefit of doubt as to whether he is a racist. That he made several mistakes (at best) is a given; I am further inclined to think he went looking for a confrontation and got one, only it didn't go the way he planned.

The potential facts that we can use to determine if he is a racist is the alleged racial slur on the 911 call and his pattern of prior calls (need to know more about them). I think nighttimer used the right word here--this was a case of *profiling* (with perhaps racism thrown in). Zimmerman saw someone he thought looked suspicious for reasons that he thought were acceptable as a whole: a stranger walking around, looking at houses, carrying something in his waist band. The hoodie and that Martin was black may have played into it. Equally, Zimmerman might have pursued the same actions if the stranger had been wearing a ball cap, or if the stranger had been white with facial piercings and tattoos. We don't yet know.

I hope that the investigation will delve into these things but given how poorly the case has been handled so far, I am not optimistic.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I'm inclined to give Zimmerman the benefit of doubt as to whether he is a racist. That he made several mistakes (at best) is a given; I am further inclined to think he went looking for a confrontation and got one, only it didn't go the way he planned.

The potential facts that we can use to determine if he is a racist is the alleged racial slur on the 911 call and his pattern of prior calls (need to know more about them). I think nighttimer used the right word here--this was a case of *profiling* (with perhaps racism thrown in). Zimmerman saw someone he thought looked suspicious for reasons that he thought were acceptable as a whole: a stranger walking around, looking at houses, carrying something in his waist band. The hoodie and that Martin was black may have played into it. Equally, Zimmerman might have pursued the same actions if the stranger had been wearing a ball cap, or if the stranger had been white with facial piercings and tattoos. We don't yet know.

I hope that the investigation will delve into these things but given how poorly the case has been handled so far, I am not optimistic.

Why should an admitted killer be given the benefit of the doubt?

As I said before, the burden of proof shifts in this case to him proving that the death was self-defense.
 

vsrenard

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Why should an admitted killer be given the benefit of the doubt?

As I said before, the burden of proof shifts in this case to him proving that the death was self-defense.

He should be given the benefit of the doubt because that is how our system operates. I don't have all of the information necessary to know if his crime was a crime, and if it was motivated by racism. I have beliefs, but that's not enough to convict on.
 

vsrenard

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Idiot. I have no idea if "coon" as a racial slur is still in use (I have never heard it in use but I live in a bubble) but that either good or coon was used endearingly pretty much shows this guy's bias.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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He should be given the benefit of the doubt because that is how our system operates. I don't have all of the information necessary to know if his crime was a crime, and if it was motivated by racism. I have beliefs, but that's not enough to convict on.

Not in the case of self-defense. Self defense is an affirmative defense, meaning that the person who claims it has the burden of proof. The wikipedia articles on this are okay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_self-defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense

Presumption of innocence changes when the person admits the act and then must justify it.
 

rwam

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A friend of Zimmerman's suggests that "coon" is an okay thing to call people. And so is "goon." So whatever Zimmerman said, it's fine.

Really.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2...-asses-used-proudly-in-parts-of-this-country/

And there ya go. If he really did call Trayvon a 'coon', then (again, this is ME, not necessarily Merriam-Websters) that sounds pretty racist. And if so, they can potentially charge him with hate crimes on top of everything else.

So, I'm assuming the 911 tape has been released? I'd be interested to hear the 911 tapes from this assclown's other 46 calls.
 

vsrenard

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Not in the case of self-defense. Self defense is an affirmative defense, meaning that the person who claims it has the burden of proof. The wikipedia articles on this are okay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_self-defense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense

Presumption of innocence changes when the person admits the act and then must justify it.

I said he should be given the benefit of the doubt as to whether he is racist. He is not a self-admitted racist and the evidence so far is not conclusive.
 

Lyv

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So, I'm assuming the 911 tape has been released? I'd be interested to hear the 911 tapes from this assclown's other 46 calls.

Yes, the family got the police to release the 911 tape. Can't help with the others, but here's one link to the call in this case.

I think Zimmerman saying "These a#$%^ always get away" is pretty damning.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I said he should be given the benefit of the doubt as to whether he is racist. He is not a self-admitted racist and the evidence so far is not conclusive.

Again. Why give him the benefit of the doubt?
He's an admitted killer.

There's evidence of racism. It's his job at this point to prove he acted from self-defense.
 

vsrenard

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Again. Why give him the benefit of the doubt?
He's an admitted killer.

There's evidence of racism. It's his job at this point to prove he acted from self-defense.

Ok he's an admitted killer. Whether or not the kill was justified is still not known. Even if it's not and he is a murderer, it does not follow he is also a racist. He may well be. I'll wait and see what the investigation turns up. Why? Because our laws and justice should be based on ration, logic and evidence, not on emotional reactions. The evidence of racism is still a matter of question.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Ok he's an admitted killer. Whether or not the kill was justified is still not known. Even if it's not and he is a murderer, it does not follow he is also a racist. He may well be. I'll wait and see what the investigation turns up. Why? Because our laws and justice should be based on ration, logic and evidence, not on emotional reactions. The evidence of racism is still a matter of question.

I'm not saying that he's definitely racist. I'm saying that in this situation he is the one who has to present the evidence in a way that shows him to be not guilty. That's the requirement of an affirmative defense.

And the question posed earlier about why people are being squeamish about the accusation of racism toward an admitted killer remains.
 

Xelebes

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I'm not saying that he's definitely racist. I'm saying that in this situation he is the one who has to present the evidence in a way that shows him to be not guilty. That's the requirement of an affirmative defense.

And the question posed earlier about why people are being squeamish about the accusation of racism toward an admitted killer remains.

We're afraid of the race riots.
 

Williebee

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I think Zimmerman saying "These a#$%^ always get away" is pretty damning.

Damning, perhaps, but evidence of racism? Not so much.

Note: My comment applies only to this one call. I haven't listened to the other 911 calls. "Coon"? Really? Decades ago the high school I attended had a race riot because the school newspaper's April Fool's Day edition announced the annual KKKK (Ku Klux Klan Koon) hunt. frickin' idiots.
 

Vince524

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I'm not saying that he's definitely racist. I'm saying that in this situation he is the one who has to present the evidence in a way that shows him to be not guilty. That's the requirement of an affirmative defense.

And the question posed earlier about why people are being squeamish about the accusation of racism toward an admitted killer remains.

The legal presumption of innocent until proven guilty remains.

The reality is he will have to explain why he thought he was justified in his actions. And in the end, it will be his actions that will, or at least should determine his fate.

Racism may or may not have played a role. Proving it doesn't prove his guilty anymore than disproving it should earn him an aquital.

However, he is legally considered innocent until proven guilty. When he gets into court, the prosucution will present their case, including whatever sequence of events they recontruct. It will be up to the defense to either disprove the facts, or explain them away.

The real problem here is that this case isn't headed to court yet. The longer it remains in the court of public opinion, the worse it will be all around.

Can you imagine the outrage if the defense claims that he can't get a fair trial because of all the publicity?
 

vsrenard

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I'm not saying that he's definitely racist. I'm saying that in this situation he is the one who has to present the evidence in a way that shows him to be not guilty. That's the requirement of an affirmative defense.

And the question posed earlier about why people are being squeamish about the accusation of racism toward an admitted killer remains.

It's not a question of being squeamish about calling a killer racist. It's an *unwillingness to accuse a person of anything other than what he has admitted to or can be proven. Just because he admitted to killing Martin does not mean he is a racist. And from what I can tell from the information released, there is enough reasonable doubt on the 'charge' of racism to warrant an investigation.

EDIT
Zimmerman should have his chance in court to prove his case. Until then he is legally entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
 
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Williebee

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One thing that is an absolute certainty is an unarmed teenager is dead and the man who killed him was never arrested for killing him.

Once that fact is established then we have a basis to start searching for the answers.

Arresting George Zimmerman would be a good start to get us on the way.

What he said.

Can anyone come up with a legitimate excuse for Sanford PD not taking Zimmerman to the station and doing all of the due diligence, even if only to try to support his claims of innocence? I can't.
 
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