Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

quicklime · Mar 13, 2012

Kaiser-Kun said:
1. What I've posted is my opinion, and how I feel whatsoever has no bearing at all on the case, so do yourself a favor and knock off the condescending bullshit. yet you are posting it as why they should be incarcerating him?

2. From the very beginning, they have more than enough evidence to hold him. Read the very post you quoted, or any other in this discussion. i read them all; you're getting edgy but that doesn't say why they should be holding him pre-trial.

3. He is not innocent. He may have killed in self-defense which is innocence, as there is no law against killing in self-defense....correct?, which he has not proven to a jury, but the fact remains that he killed.

"killing" is not a crime. there are several levels of homicide and murder, including negligent homicide, but every state in the union allows killing in self-defense, to the best of my knowledge.

Do I believe it was self-defense? no. But you don't just subvert or fast-track the legal system whenever you happen to feel like doing it in full is a "waste of time" and you don't get to cherry-pick which cases get due process.

So, the only question that matters right now is if they can legally hold him before trial based on the evidence they have, and if he poses a risk of flight or to the community. I suspect they have their doubts, or they'd be holding him--even if the police handling seems very off, they still have the DA as well, and from what I gather, state police involvement.

it seems you want to make an emotional argument for if he should be free, but the police don't have that luxury and they are quite possibly worried about their case and/or a lawsuit

Williebee · Mar 13, 2012

MOD NOTE:

Ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls, Writers of all ages --

As an active participant and a Mod, it is time to throw my Kevin Bacon hands in the air and shout hysterically
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Seriously, let's leave the "you" statements and personal asides at the door, yeah?

Thanks.

missesdash · Mar 13, 2012

ETA: sorry I'm so horrible with links! I'm on an iPhone. I'll add some citations to this rambling post a little later.

Another issue is that killing as a means of self defense is only justified in Florida if it was done to prevent a "forcible felony," like assault with a deadly weapon.

So the only way this could be proven as self defense is if George met Trayvon with equal force. And since he was unarmed and outweighed by 60 lbs that is HIGHLY unlikely.

Also, this law has caused a lot of confusion in the Florida legal system. Back in 2005, I think it was, a few men tried to run one down with his car. He shot into the windshield once a few times and then went around to the side and fired through the window. He killed both guys. Both his attorney and the police were confused as to whether or not this was covered by their "Stand Your Ground Law." The man actually believed he was within his rights to murder two guys.

The issue, for me, is the difference between a real threat to your life and a percieved threat. Take the example above: shooting into the windshield and killing one guy, gave him enough of an advantage to run off. Even shooting a guy in the leg would do. But shooting to kill after the threat has been lessened, that's murder.

And George may have been on the ground getting the shit beat out of him, but I doubt he was about to be killed. A lot of people in Florida assume they can shoot to kill whenever they feel threatened.

This won't hold up in court. But the issue is getting it there in the first place.

backslashbaby · Mar 13, 2012

I understand why he's not in jail, and I agree with it. For one thing, the state needs to be able to charge someone with enough evidence, so an ongoing investigation often means the person is free.

What I don't get is why the chief of police himself is making statements that support Zimmerman in his story. Maybe it does make sense and we'll know why later. OTOH, I don't like the idea of a police chief making one-sided statements and then not releasing any information to the public. Something is off about that, imho.

They told the family that Zimmerman was 'squeaky clean' and we know that's not true because of his previous arrest record.

The chief of police needs to keep his opinions to himself at this point, I think, or either explain better what on earth is going on.

And the only reason I might give off a mob vibe is because the story doesn't make sense yet. It upsets me that nobody has yet tried to explain to this poor family what kind of threat their son was supposed to have posed. Instead, the police are publicly siding with Zimmerman.

backslashbaby · Mar 13, 2012

The shot was on the 911 call, according to the press. I take it he was transferred to 911 as most reports say he called the non-emergency number.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/justice/florida-teen-shot/index.html

...
Police say a gunshot can be heard on the 911 calls recorded that night.
Sanford police said Monday the calls will not be made public until the investigation is complete, but the Martin family is pushing for the tapes to be released sooner.
"It will tell us why (Zimmerman) just disregarded, just ignored the police instructions when they tell him to stay put, they'll be there in a few minutes. On those 911 tapes is going to tell you why he said he's not going to follow their instructions. And most importantly, it's going to tell us his mentality when he confronted this 17-year-old kid," Crump said.
...

But get this quote from the city manager (Norton Bonaparte):

"We see this as a tragedy. We are doing a full and thorough investigation, and certainly the guilty parties ... will be punished."

I really do think the communication by the gov't in this case is bringing the bulk of the fuel to the fire.

Williebee · Mar 13, 2012

"parties" A slip? Or maybe Chief Lee needs to be worried.

If there are no other witnesses to this incident, and nothing but "what if" and the single past incident (Can anyone cite any others? Heck has anyone cited more than the family lawyer's statement about that one?) It is entirely possible that Mr. Zimmerman walks away from the criminal charges... and straight into the civil ones. I'd bet we'll see civil suits against the city, the gated community's association, Mr. Zimmerman, Sanford PD, maybe Chief Lee... I hope some good comes out of this tragedy, but I'm not holding my breath.

missesdash · Mar 13, 2012

Aaaaand more info on what happened according to the address police gave at the town meeting following the shooting

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...s-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T1-sIRES1B8

The teenager went out to get some Skittles and a can of ice tea. On his way back into the gated suburban Orlando community, Martin, wearing a hood, was spotted by Zimmerman, 26. According to law enforcement sources who heard Zimmerman's call to a non-emergency police number, he told a dispatcher "these a..holes always get away."

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall. A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going. Lee said Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime.

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top. Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.

Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

Kaiser-Kun · Mar 13, 2012

Did Martin knew some martial art or something? How did a scrawny teenager got an adult 13 years his elder and 100 pounds heavier to the ground? How did the fistfight started? If Zimmerman was willing to use his gun, why did he approached Martin enough for it to come to the fists, rather than keep his distance and hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived?

In my biased, unprofessional projection, it seems as if Zimmerman provoked Martin into attacking him when the latter asked him what he wanted, then panicked when the kid fought back and shot him.

Ah geez, I've played too much of L.A. Noire.

missesdash · Mar 13, 2012

Kaiser-Kun said:
Did Martin knew some martial art or something? How did a scrawny teenager got an adult 13 years his elder and 100 pounds heavier to the ground? How did the fistfight started? If Zimmerman was willing to use his gun, why did he approached Martin enough for it to come to the fists, rather than keep his distance and hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived?

In my biased, unprofessional projection, it seems as if Zimmerman provoked Martin into attacking him when the latter asked him what he wanted, then panicked when the kid fought back and shot him.

Ah geez, I've played too much of L.A. Noire.

That's what I'm thinking. He took his pretend-cop act too far and got his ass kicked, then whipped out his gun the second he felt threatened.

Ella31 · Mar 13, 2012

Kaiser-Kun, some might say, a 17 year old can be quite large. He may look different than his photos. However, I do agree with you, Zimmerman is a criminology major therefore he may know how to play this race card, stages this fight shoots/kills then neatly calls it a self-defense strategy. However, wouldn't defending oneself be only if someone came at you with let's say, something equally fatal as a gun? In other words, if Trayvon had a knife it wouldn't be fair if Zimmerman had the gun. So, Trayvon would have to have had fists equivalent to... Maybe that's not even the point here but it just seems unfair and yes, planned that way...

Mclesh · Mar 13, 2012

I keep coming back to the fact that this whole thing was totally preventable. Zimmerman was looking for trouble, and he found it. He had no business getting personally involved. If the young man was up to no good, the police should have handled it. Period.

I try to put myself in Trayvon's parents' shoes; they're never getting their son back. What a senseless tragedy.

Yorkist · Mar 13, 2012

What exactly about wearing a hooded sweatshirt (in the rain, no less) is suspicious? What is suspicious about walking slowly?

And for that matter, while the fact that this kid was unarmed makes this obviously not self-defense, but rather some form of murder or, at best, manslaughter, it wouldn't matter if he had an Uzi illegally strapped to his back. Was he pointing it at anyone? No? Not self-defense, not justifiable homicide.

Again, this is based on what we know. Other facts could change the scenario.

quicklime said:
anyone with legal experience? Say this was with a car rather than a gun (because I feel like some extra bias is going into this based on him carrying a pistol): if I am negligent in running someone down while drunk, and I am not deemed a flight risk, i cannot be held indefinately before trial, correct? Now what if I am actually going to trial for premeditated vehicular homicide? Again, I believe you can't be held without reason to believe you will flee, but I am not a judge.

That's what bail is for, right?

Kaiser-Kun · Mar 13, 2012

Ella31 said:
Kaiser-Kun, some might say, a 17 year old can be quite large. He may look different than his photos. However, I do agree with you, Zimmerman is a criminology major therefore he may know how to play this race card, stages this fight shoots/kills then neatly calls it a self-defense strategy. However, wouldn't defending oneself be only if someone came at you with let's say, something equally fatal as a gun? In other words, if Trayvon had a knife it wouldn't be fair if Zimmerman had the gun. So, Trayvon would have to have had fists equivalent to... Maybe that's not even the point here but it just seems unfair and yes, planned that way...

Very true, I've been wrestled to the ground by some kids much younger (and some even bigger) than me. A teenager might be reckless enough to respond to a stranger's provoking, which might trigger the fistfight.

Either way, none of the scenarios presented work very well in Zimmerman's favor. His defense will need a lot of atenuants.

Yorkist said:
What exactly about wearing a hooded sweatshirt (in the rain, no less) is suspicious? What is suspicious about walking slowly?

Inside his car, Zimmerman probably thought the Martin's hood was to hide his face, and that the "logical" thing to do under the rain was to run (it's smarter to walk since you can trip and you actually end up less drenched).

muravyets · Mar 13, 2012

This shooting was absolutely preventable, and in my opinion, the sole cause of it was Zimmerman's bad choices. It doesn't really matter whether he felt threatened by this teenager, nor did it matter if he panicked or whatever, because as a Neighborhood Watch captain, Zimmerman had absolutely no business leaving his vehicle, or even leaving his house for that matter, to pursue any suspicious person in the first place, let alone doing so with a gun.

The job of the Neighborhood Watch is to watch, not arrest or pursue or chase off or harass. If they see something suspicious, they are supposed to call the police and let the police deal with it. They are not supposed to tail the suspicious person or interact with the suspicious person. These rules are for the protection of Neighborhood Watch volunteers as well as the general public and the rule of law. Such rules are what stop Neighborhood Watches from becoming Neighborhood Vigilante Gangs, something that is apparently lost on Mr. Criminology-Major Zimmerman.

If Trayvon had been a bad guy, it could be Zimmerman himself lying dead on the pavement. Instead, the bad guy in this story was Zimmerman himself, and the victim of his incredible stupidity is an innocent.

FoamyRules · Mar 13, 2012

What I'm struggling to understand is why did he have his gun with him while on duty? I mean, I really thought neighborhood watch captains weren't supposed to be armed like that.

MeretSeger · Mar 13, 2012

I was walking slowly in the rain tonight. Sure glad I didn't run into the neighborhood watch.

A possibility is that the police are acting like they support him in the hopes of drawing out more evidence or statements.

Rufus Coppertop · Mar 14, 2012

missesdash said:
That's what I'm thinking. He took his pretend-cop act too far and got his ass kicked, then whipped out his gun the second he felt threatened.

I wouldn't be surprised.

William Haskins · Mar 14, 2012

At some point today, the Trayvon Martin shooting investigation will make its way from Sanford Police detectives to the State Attorney's Office, where a decision will be made about whether the 28-year-old white community watch member who shot the Miami teen last month will be charged with a crime.

Whatever the outcome, some are likely to be unhappy.
Trayvon's family members have pleaded with police to arrest George Zimmerman to no avail.

On Monday, while an angry crowd of critics stood by, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee admitted that his detectives do not have enough evidence to arrest him.

George Zimmerman told police he acted in self defense when he fatally shot Trayvon Martin Feb. 26 in a gated community.
"Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him," the chief said.

Sanford police detectives were expected to finish their work on the case Monday, the chief said, and would forward the matter to the state attorney's office Tuesday, which would make a charging decision.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-20120312,0,2131784.story

missesdash · Mar 14, 2012

When something like this happens in a battle ground state so close to an election, it's bound to become political fodder.

William Haskins · Mar 14, 2012

it would be an overreach for either side to attempt that, in my opinion.

Kaiser-Kun · Mar 14, 2012

Online petition from Martin's family

backslashbaby · Mar 14, 2012

MeretSeger said:
I was walking slowly in the rain tonight. Sure glad I didn't run into the neighborhood watch.

A possibility is that the police are acting like they support him in the hopes of drawing out more evidence or statements.

Oh, I hope so!

It was also a good point upthread about the cops maybe seeing him as another cop, basically.

Whatever it is, if y'all read Kitty's links, the cops went so far as to trust him on the fact that he had no criminal record. And they corrected witnesses on who cried out 'Help!'. Corrected them!

Even if race isn't involved (I totally think it is), what are the cops doing completely trusting a man on sight? Because he's living in a gated community, maybe? Is it a class thing?

When I was arrested, they let me know that they thought I was nice but didn't trust me a bit, because they knew nothing about me. Of course, they saw my old car so they knew I probably wasn't a Rockefeller.

Uh-uh. Standards should be the same, regardless of the cops' first impression of the folks involved.

Shadow Dragon · Mar 14, 2012

FoamyRules said:
What I'm struggling to understand is why did he have his gun with him while on duty? I mean, I really thought neighborhood watch captains weren't supposed to be armed like that.

Private citizens are allowed to carry concealed guns in Florida. So in that part, he wasn't breaking any laws.

Don · Mar 14, 2012

Shadow Dragon said:
Private citizens are allowed to carry concealed guns in Florida. So in that part, he wasn't breaking any laws.

Well, they have to have a concealed carry permit, and one of the things they're supposed to learn in the required class is to never initiate a confrontation. To the contrary, because you're armed, you have an extra assumed responsibility to attempt to deescalate a situation so it's not necessary to draw your weapon.

Obviously this guy slept through his class. He did absolutely everything wrong. My instructor was a police officer, and he did a great job of explaining all this in the most graphic of terms.

He needs to be locked up if for no other reason than to keep his form of aggressive stupidity off the streets.

Shadow Dragon · Mar 14, 2012

Not sure if this has been brought up yet or not, but:

An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.

Witnesses told ABC News they heard Zimmerman pronounce aloud to the breathless residents watching the violence unfold "it was self-defense," and place the gun on the ground.

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...s-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2FKa3kyIbU

So the police corrected witness who told them it was the teen that hollered for help, not the man. This case is going to draw a federal investigation and some of these cops will get fired after this.

Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

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