Digital beer for anyone who manages to clear this up for me

D.C. McCormick · Jan 28, 2015

Help me out with the bolded sentence. I can't wrap my mind around it: what is the subject and what is the object? Parishes did what? Who darkens whom? Did the priests darken? Or does darken have a totally different meaning here?

[FONT=&quot]...He’d never set foot in the place before. It was a fetid den, his uncle said, where Archbishop Dietrich’s priests and abbots schemed – as much despised by guildsmen as the Elders’ tavern at the Tiergarten. The higher-ranking canons of the different orders stopped there when they passed through Mainz, en route from Rome or Aschaffenburg, the Hessian city where Dietrich had his court. Most of them also held high posts in the archbishop’s vast administration or the pope’s, along with parishes they scarcely ever darkened. The Schreibhaus had become a trading hall, except that they no longer bartered manuscripts, wine and wheat, but pulpits, favors, sinecures and prebends...[/FONT]

Usher · Jan 28, 2015

Means the high-ranking canons hardly every visited their parishes. As in they never darkened the door of.

mirandashell · Jan 28, 2015

I think it's saying that the deacons hold high posts in parishes that they never go to or care about other than as a base for their positions. Kind of like British politicians who pretend to live in a town a so they can be voted into Parliament and then are never seen in the town again.

It's an incredibly messy sentence though.

amergina · Jan 28, 2015

D.C. McCormick said:
Help me out with the bolded sentence. I can't wrap my mind around it: what is the subject and what is the object? Parishes did what? Who darkens whom? Did the priests darken? Or does darken have a totally different meaning here?

[FONT=&quot]...He’d never set foot in the place before. It was a fetid den, his uncle said, where Archbishop Dietrich’s priests and abbots schemed – as much despised by guildsmen as the Elders’ tavern at the Tiergarten. The higher-ranking canons of the different orders stopped there when they passed through Mainz, en route from Rome or Aschaffenburg, the Hessian city where Dietrich had his court. Most of them also held high posts in the archbishop’s vast administration or the pope’s, along with parishes they scarcely ever darkened. The Schreibhaus had become a trading hall, except that they no longer bartered manuscripts, wine and wheat, but pulpits, favors, sinecures and prebends...[/FONT]

"Most of them" refers to the higher-ranking canons (of the previous sentence). So, those higher-ranking canons also held high posts in the archbishop's administration, or they held posts in the pope's administration, along with also holding and administering parishes they hardly ever went to (scarcely ever darkened).

Neegh · Jan 28, 2015

It’s referring ring to something said earlier: maybe in the previous paragraph.

Maryn · Jan 28, 2015

Amergina for the win. She's nailed it.

Maryn, high fiving

Chase · Jan 28, 2015

Most of them also held high posts in the archbishop’s vast administration or the pope’s, along with parishes they scarcely ever darkened.

amergina said:
"Most of them" refers to the higher-ranking canons (of the previous sentence). So, those higher-ranking canons also held high posts in the archbishop's administration, or they held posts in the pope's administration, along with also holding and administering parishes they hardly ever went to (scarcely ever darkened).

Yep, "Most" (of them) is the simple subject of the sentence, and "posts" is the core object. Parish churches have doors seldom darkened by the shadows (as the old saying goes) of members of the archbishop's or pope's administrations.

D.C. McCormick · Jan 28, 2015

Thank you all, I really appreciate the help!

Maryn · Jan 28, 2015

Amergina needs her beer! And Chase probably gets one, too.

Maryn, stealing sips when they're not looking

mirandashell · Jan 28, 2015

Excuse me! I think it should be beers for all us seeing as we all said basically the same thing.

Chase · Jan 28, 2015

Maryn said:
Amergina needs her beer! And Chase probably gets one, too.

Nah, both beers go to Amergina. I was only saying she's right.

Hey! Someone emptied half of the mug slid down the bar to me. :e2cry:

guttersquid · Jan 28, 2015

Sorry, Chase. I enjoy licking off the bar. Besides, it was mostly foam.

benbradley · Jan 28, 2015

So they held parishes, or they held high posts in parishes? I think the writer MEANT to say something like the second one, but it's still confusing. Of course a canon (priest) would hold a "high post" in a parish, as opposed to a low post in a parish. This sentence just ain't written right.

amergina said:
"Most of them" refers to the higher-ranking canons (of the previous sentence). So, those higher-ranking canons also held high posts in the archbishop's administration, or they held posts in the pope's administration, along with also holding and administering parishes they hardly ever went to (scarcely ever darkened).

I don't see it saying what I bolded, as the verb is "held." It appears to be implied, and may be what the writer MEANT, but don't read the sentence as actually saying that.

The OP is right for asking for someone to parse the sentence, and I haven't seen it done.

I hope no one is drinking beer they didn't earn...

amergina · Jan 28, 2015

benbradley said:
So they held parishes, or they held high posts in parishes? I think the writer MEANT to say something like the second one, but it's still confusing. Of course a canon (priest) would hold a "high post" in a parish, as opposed to a low post in a parish. This sentence just ain't written right.

I don't see it saying what I bolded, as the verb is "held." It appears to be implied, and may be what the writer MEANT, but don't read the sentence as actually saying that.

The OP is right for asking for someone to parse the sentence, and I haven't seen it done.

I hope no one is drinking beer they didn't earn...

Part of my reading falls back on my knowledge of the Catholic Church and the terminology used, since the OP only gave us part of what I am guessing is a fairly complex section.

So yes, you are correct. That's not in the text presented. I have information in my head that helps parse the text presented since the info needed isn't available in the five sentences quoted.

You are welcome to my beer, if you'd like.

guttersquid · Jan 28, 2015

D.C. McCormick said:
Most of them also held high posts in the archbishop’s vast administration or the pope’s, along with parishes they scarcely ever darkened.

It's easier to parse if you take out some extraneous words.

Most held posts in the archbishop’s administration or the pope’s, along with parishes they scarcely darkened.

Most (the canons) = subject
Held = predicate
Posts = object
Everything else = details of the object

The sentence is clear except for the pronoun they, which could mean most (the canons) or the archbishop and the pope.

benbradley · Jan 28, 2015

Let's cut it down some more, and maybe others can more clearly see the problem I have with it:

Most held posts, along with parishes.

They HELD parishes?

Or did parishes also hold posts?

amergina · Jan 28, 2015

They held parishes.

Mostly because Canon priests can hold parishes while parishes cannot hold posts.

(We're not talking hold as in "in your hands" we're talking hold as in "hold a territory." Parishes are territories. It's like a Duke holding a duchy.)

It's not the best written of sentences and there's missing info that makes it harder to parse.

slhuang · Jan 29, 2015

Some Catholicism knowledge here as well, and "held parishes" sounds fine to me too. I'll give a back-of-the-envelope diagramming a go:

[FONT=&quot]Most
---of them

held
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]also[/FONT][/FONT]

posts[FONT=&quot]...........[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]along with[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...........[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]parishes[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]high[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...........[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...........[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...........[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT](that) [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]they darkened
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]---in administration[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...........[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...........---[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]--scarcely ever [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]---[FONT=&quot]---the [/FONT]archbishop’s vast[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]....[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]or[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]......[FONT=&quot]the [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]pope’s[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

benbradley · Jan 29, 2015

So the reader is supposed to be well-read on the Catholic Church?

veinglory · Jan 29, 2015

I know next to nothing about Catholicism but in context "held" seems clear in meaning to me. People "hold" all kinds of duties and offices.

D.C. McCormick · Jan 29, 2015

There is no context around it that may help in any way, or even complicate things further. Simplestuffsimplesimple, and then that.

Beers for all!!!

Now, if anyone would like a stronger beverage, or orange juice, whatever - give this a shot - same author, same book.

[FONT=&quot]Hans laughed. “Don’t throw away a thing, now do I?” he said, and moved toward some shelves along the back. He reappeared with several dusty objects that on close inspection proved to be dies cast from some hard metal. These were used to stamp out mirrors for the pilgrims: shiny convex badges that, held up from far away, could capture holy rays that emanated from cherished relics like the finger-bones of saints or shards of martyrs’ crosses. Or so the credulous believed.

[/FONT]Held up from far away? Why is the mirror far away... and held up? Cherished? What exactly do the finger bones and crosses represent in this godforsaken sentence?

amergina · Jan 29, 2015

benbradley said:
So the reader is supposed to be well-read on the Catholic Church?

No idea.

I was just trying to help the original poster parse the sentence.

I'll bow out now, since I'm apparently grammaring and syntaxing wrong.

mirandashell · Jan 29, 2015

D.C. McCormick said:
Held up from far away? Why is the mirror far away... and held up? Cherished? What exactly do the finger bones and crosses represent in this godforsaken sentence?

The finger bones and crosses don't represent anything as such in the sentence. They are finger bones and bits of the wood the crosses were made out of. Alledgedly.

They were things to go and worship as representations of God and Christ.

They were a major source of revenue back in the Middle Ages in places on the pilgrimage route.

evilrooster · Jan 29, 2015

benbradley said:
So the reader is supposed to be well-read on the Catholic Church?

Given the second quote, almost certainly. I hope you're not blaming any of the community helping to parse these passages for that fact.

D.C. McCormick said:
Hans laughed. “Don’t throw away a thing, now do I?” he said, and moved toward some shelves along the back. He reappeared with several dusty objects that on close inspection proved to be dies cast from some hard metal. These were used to stamp out mirrors for the pilgrims: shiny convex badges that, held up from far away, could capture holy rays that emanated from cherished relics like the finger-bones of saints or shards of martyrs’ crosses. Or so the credulous believed.

Held up from far away? Why is the mirror far away... and held up? Cherished? What exactly do the finger bones and crosses represent in this godforsaken sentence?

The finger bones and crosses are cherished relics; "relic" is the term for the possessions and body parts of saints, which were/are thought to have especial holiness. Such relics are generally on display in churches, and before tourism-without-an-excuse was a Thing, pilgrimages to go see relics was a common excuse for travel. Often, the really good relics are on display somewhere around the altar, isolated from pilgrims (thus, far away).

Pilgrimage badges, which had about the same significance as those national-flag patches one sees on the backpacks of modern tourists ("I was here!"), came in all kinds of shapes and sizes. I guess some of them in the book were mirror-shaped, with (in theory) the intent of capturing whatever rays of sanctity distant relics might emit.

King Neptune · Jan 29, 2015

D.C. McCormick said:
Now, if anyone would like a stronger beverage, or orange juice, whatever - give this a shot - same author, same book.

[FONT=&quot]Hans laughed. “Don’t throw away a thing, now do I?” he said, and moved toward some shelves along the back. He reappeared with several dusty objects that on close inspection proved to be dies cast from some hard metal. These were used to stamp out mirrors for the pilgrims: shiny convex badges that, held up from far away, could capture holy rays that emanated from cherished relics like the finger-bones of saints or shards of martyrs’ crosses. Or so the credulous believed.

[/FONT]Held up from far away? Why is the mirror far away... and held up? Cherished? What exactly do the finger bones and crosses represent in this godforsaken sentence?

This is very simple. The credulous would never be allowed into the immediate proximity of sacred relics, such as "finger bones of saints or shards of martyrs' crosses", so they would hold up the pilgrimage badge to absorb in that the sanctity of the sacred relic. "Far away" wouldn't have meant miles away but twenty or thirty feet, or so, because relics were frequently kept behind screens so that they wouldn't be smashed by over eager pilgrims.

Digital beer for anyone who manages to clear this up for me

A fool in a swimming pool

Pittsburgh Strong

At Sea

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

A fool in a swimming pool

At Sea

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

I agree with Roxxsmom.

It's a doggy dog world

Pittsburgh Strong

I agree with Roxxsmom.

It's a doggy dog world

Pittsburgh Strong

Inappropriately math-oriented.

It's a doggy dog world

volitare nequeo

A fool in a swimming pool

Pittsburgh Strong

Wicked chicken