TV Show "Cops"Crewmember Killed In Police Shootout.

rugcat

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Being a cop is a tough job and often thankless. Officers are required to put their lives on the line in service to the community. And in this regard, they can't just unload on someone haphazardly. It's a tough line, no doubt. But when it's obviously crossed, that should be pointed out.
I couldn't agree more.

There are plenty of situations where the cops screw up royally. There are plenty of examples of cops who are corrupt, cops who are brutal, and cups who commit murder. It stands to reason; there is somewhere around 1 million law enforcement positions in the country.

But the default position that when ever something fatal goes down, the cops are at fault is uninformed and quite frankly stupid. As is the position that cops can do no wrong and that they're always right.
 

kuwisdelu

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Oh, and I'm uncomfortable people carrying handguns.

So that kinda puts cops at a disadvantage right there.

...so maybe we should just ban guns and it'd all be good?
 
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Vince524

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Total tangent: in the Longmire TV series on A&E, the native american cops are dirty across the board. Longmire is a sheriff. He's clean, mostly (as his deputy, who is played by the same person in my current avatar).

If he's such a clean cop, then how come his show got cancelled. Huh?
 

Lyv

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But apparently they're just supposed to shoot once (I'm assuming once each would be okay) and then wait to see if the guy stopped...
"Apparently" according to whom? Seriously, where are you getting that? Because some of us are questioning the number and/or placement of shots in this case? Why?
 

Lyv

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And again, this doesn't mean these officers should be held criminally responsible here, should be fired or the like. I can wait for the full investigation. Still, the results here speak to a reality: this wasn't a good days work for these guys. Far from it.

True. When I ask the questions I have about this shooting, I don't assume recklessness or incompetence, though those are possibilities. I also consider other possibilities, up to and including equipment issues. Thing is, there easily could have been more casualties here. One of the patrons or staff of the business next door, for example. I simply think it's a good idea for someone to take a lot at whether something should have been done differently.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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Then why did the police spokesman (referenced, i believe, earlier in this thread) state that at least 30 rounds were fired, ALL by the police?

And robbie is spot on about the meaninglessness of "13 bullet holes riddled the entryway". At least one extra bullet hole riddled the TV crew member. God only knows where the other ones went.

caw

Your right. I misread. Pardon.

I just realized it was blacbird's post, not Lyv's, that I was attempting to answer. As for "your" well, dear god, the humiliation. :tongue
 

cmhbob

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There are a lot of people (here and in general) who have what I think are unrealistic expectations of gunfights. Maybe it's based on the the lack of reality shown in books, TV shows and movies. Maybe it's based on a lack of research in the subject.

Bad guys don't always fall down after the first shot. It depends on what drugs they might have in their system, and where that shot hits them. A 9mm round into the belly of a 400 pound person is not going to have the same effect as a .22 round into the belly of a 130 pound person, with all other things being equal.

I can't at all do justice to the idea here, but I'd ask anyone who's judging the cops on their accuracy or volume of fire to do some real research into the subject. There's a massive adrenaline dump, which affects your fine motor control, your hearing, and your vision. The last two are also affected by the fight-or-flight condition. You develop tunnel vision and tunnel hearing. The latter makes it difficult to figure out where that gunshot came from. The former can make it seem like you're the only one there, and the 9mm barrel pointed at you is suddenly 6 feet across.

And this is one of the subjects that you might have to hold your nose when you're researching it. I get that there are lots of people here who are anti-gun. I'm not trying to change your mind on the subject. But some of the best articles on stopping power and the physiology of gunshot wounds and gunfights is going to be found on sites you might not normally find yourself.
 

kuwisdelu

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There are a lot of people (here and in general) who have what I think are unrealistic expectations of gunfights. Maybe it's based on the the lack of reality shown in books, TV shows and movies. Maybe it's based on a lack of research in the subject.

My expectation of gunfights is that both sides have real guns.

I suppose you're right though. That is increasingly unrealistic these days.
 

Vince524

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My expectation of gunfights is that both sides have real guns.

I suppose you're right though. That is increasingly unrealistic these days.

Well, maybe that will end when someone gets around to inventing phasers with a stun setting.
 

Lyv

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I can't at all do justice to the idea here, but I'd ask anyone who's judging the cops on their accuracy or volume of fire to do some real research into the subject.
I'd ask that you don't assume we haven't. I won't make assumptions either, so I will ask--did you look at any photographs of the scene?

I get that there are lots of people here who are anti-gun.
If I were, there would probably be fewer guns in my household.

I'm not trying to change your mind on the subject. But some of the best articles on stopping power and the physiology of gunshot wounds and gunfights is going to be found on sites you might not normally find yourself.
Pro-gun sites?
 

robeiae

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I can't at all do justice to the idea here, but I'd ask anyone who's judging the cops on their accuracy or volume of fire to do some real research into the subject.
Do your own research, first.

As I noted upthread, I've been present for in a couple of instances when police have fired there weapons. In neither case did they fire this many shots. Not even close.

Again, if the situation is one were the suspect or suspects are heavily armed and/or in a fortified position, expectations will be quite different. But that isn't the case here. The officers fired multiple times--to say the least--in a situation that was not secure, where innocent people could get shot. And one did. And died.
 

blacbird

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I can't at all do justice to the idea here, but I'd ask anyone who's judging the cops on their accuracy or volume of fire to do some real research into the subject. There's a massive adrenaline dump, which affects your fine motor control, your hearing, and your vision. The last two are also affected by the fight-or-flight condition. You develop tunnel vision and tunnel hearing. The latter makes it difficult to figure out where that gunshot came from. The former can make it seem like you're the only one there, and the 9mm barrel pointed at you is suddenly 6 feet across.

Which reads like a justification for "trained" police officers to be allowed instant panic. No matter how it's spun, this incident comes across to me as a hell of a lot of shots fired, pretty randomly, given the circumstances. Robbie and I are on exactly the same page here, which doesn't happen all that often. Now, as I said previously, it would be very useful to have more detail about who fired how many rounds and where everyone was positioned. That might clarify a lot of things. The people who should know all of this have been phenomenally uncooperative so far in providing information. Which, of course, generates the obvious question, Why?

Pertinent to your vague generalization about gun knowledge, I served in Vietnam with the U.S. Army.

caw
 

rugcat

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Which reads like a justification for "trained" police officers to be allowed instant panic
It's not so much training as experience.

A rookie police officer is far more likely to panic and make a bad decision than an officer who's been working the streets for ten years.

When you get a man with a gun call for the first time, your adrenaline goes through the roof even before you arrive. If you've been to numerous similar calls, your pulse rate barely moves.

That's true in many high stress professions -- in general veteran soldiers are far superior to recruits. A veteran paramedic goes about his or her job calmly and efficiently, as opposed to someone who's never seen someone bleeding out. Training is vital and helps bridge that gap, but nothing can substitute for experience.

And as far as shootings go, there is certainly a psychological factor involved when multiple officers respond. You may decide to hold off firing, but when the cop next to you starts cranking off rounds, there's a halo effect that encourages you to do the same. Maybe he saw something you didn't. If he's firing away, are you going to stand there watching?

But it's more instinctive than anything else -- gunfire from anywhere provokes more gunfire.

These are not excuses or justifications -- just a window into common psychological responses to stress situations.
 

robeiae

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Thanks, I did. When I went to the police academy, and when I decided to get my concealed carry permits.
Then let's see it, since you're claiming expertise here. Let's see the evidence that 30+ shots fired by the police in an open, public situation is typical, is nothing out of the ordinary.

Here, I'll help out: http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/Deadly-Force-Statistical-Analysis.pdf

From page 15:

The 27 police officers directly involved in person-type OIS incidents during 2011 fired a total of 126 rounds, which equates to an average of 4.7 rounds per officer and 7.0 rounds per incident. Each of these two performance measures rose by approximately 25 percent from 2010 to 2011. Also notable, the actual number of shots fired in 2011 during individual incidents ranged from a high of 44 to a low of one, which occurred six times.

The average number of shots fired per officer during 2011 drops from 4.7 to a more representative 3.6 when the single most anomalous incident, one in which four officers fired a total of 44 rounds during a running gun battle, is excluded from the computation. A similar reduction can also be obtained for 2010 by applying the same technique to omit the most atypical OIS incident from that year’s shooting statistics, one in which three officers fired a combined 37 rounds...

Well look at that. A "raging gun battle" saw four officers fire a total of 44 rounds, or 11 rounds per officer. And that's labeled an anomaly. In this case, three officers fired at least 30 rounds, or 10+ rounds per officer. And IT WASN'T EVEN A RAGING GUN BATTLE.

Care to rethink your position?
 

cmhbob

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My position is not that it was justified or even necessarily normal, only that it was explainable without the idea of officer incompetence. My position is that police officers are drawn from the same pool that gives us fast food clerks who can't count your change back to you: the human race. They are fallible. They are human.
 

kuwisdelu

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My position is that police officers are drawn from the same pool that gives us fast food clerks who can't count your change back to you: the human race. They are fallible. They are human.

Most jobs have more requirements that simply "human".

I was under the impression "police officer" was one such job.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea that police officers shouldn't be held to a higher standard than fast food clerks who can't count change.
 

poetinahat

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That's not at all what cmhbob said. And that's very clear.

What he said is that no one is perfect - not that everyone has equal skills, or that all occupations have equally exacting standards.
 

kuwisdelu

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What he said is that no one is perfect - not that everyone has equal skills, or that all occupations have equally exacting standards.

...which is a meaningless platitude.

Sure, an innocent bystander died, but everyone makes mistakes. Oops?

If that's the argument, what's the point of accountability at all?
 
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robeiae

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My position is not that it was justified or even necessarily normal, only that it was explainable without the idea of officer incompetence. My position is that police officers are drawn from the same pool that gives us fast food clerks who can't count your change back to you: the human race. They are fallible. They are human.

It's also your position that the people questioning the volume of rounds fired here need to "do some real research into the subject." The implication is clear: such people don't know what they are talking about. Right?

To that end, I've given you some real research from the DOJ. Again:

The average number of shots fired per officer during 2011 drops from 4.7 to a more representative 3.6 when the single most anomalous incident, one in which four officers fired a total of 44 rounds during a running gun battle, is excluded from the computation. A similar reduction can also be obtained for 2010 by applying the same technique to omit the most atypical OIS incident from that year’s shooting statistics, one in which three officers fired a combined 37 rounds...

So address the facts, the "real research." If the volume here is atypical, is representative of anomalous incidents, why shouldn't it be seen as indicative of a problem, given that two people died from police gunfire and no one was actually shooting back.