Guns don't kill people . . . . .

blacbird

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. . . . . people who allow their children access to loaded guns they can take to school kill people. Or damn near do:

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/mother-of-boy-who-brought-gun-to-school-sentenced

I'm not categorically opposed to private ownership of firearms. But I am completely appalled by the American Romance of the Gun culture we have developed. This very evening I was subjected to a currently popular country-western song in which the singer boasted that "where I come from . . . I got a gun in my truck."

That sounds like a satirical cliché, but I garontee it isn't. This attitude is by no means new. Nearly a half-century ago now, the first publicly-noticed major mass slaughter-by-firearm took place in Austin, Texas, when Charles Whitman killed his family, then drove with an arsenal to the University of Texas campus where he invaded the famous Texas Tower, overlooking the city, killing at least one other person on his way in, then barricated him self 27 stories or so up, and commenced to sniping dozens of victims in the open public area around it. More than a dozen were killed, many others wounded. His siege occupied several hours, and made live national news. Eventually a heroic effort by a cop and a private citizen put an end to it, by killing him.

After the horror, his father was interviewed, and told reporters with obvious pride that Whitman had been brought up in a culture of guns, and that he, himself, was "a gun nut."

I'm not opposed to guns, but I am damn sure opposed to "gun nuts."

caw
 
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Cyia

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This very evening I was subjected to a currently popular country-western song in which the singer boasted that "where I come from . . . I got a gun in my truck."

Ah... Mr. Paisley's ode to real men....

I'm kind of surprised they charged the boy's mom and not her boyfriend, as it was his gun. He'd be the one responsible for its storage, I'd think.
 

blacbird

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Ah... Mr. Paisley's ode to real men....

What's really ironic is that Brad Paisley is a short, kinda cute guy, in a cute kinda way. And no real country-western singer dude should be named Brad Paisley, should he? That's like, a fashion-designer kind a name, ya know? mean, come on, we need real he-man names like George Jones, Faron Young, Ferlin Husky, Hank Snow, Merle Haggard, George Strait, Trace Atkins, Garth Brooks . . .

caw
 

C.bronco

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There's the responsibility of the parent to ensure that a child is emotionally ready and responsible for, say, duck hunting, and the acumen to decide whether or not a child can handle it.

People fall short in their judgement and understanding of the difference between a seasoned adult brain and a growing brain.
 

Haggis

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. . . . . people who allow their children access to loaded guns they can take to school kill people. Or damn near do:

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/mother-of-boy-who-brought-gun-to-school-sentenced

I'm not categorically opposed to private ownership of firearms. But I am completely appalled by the American Romance of the Gun culture we have developed. This very evening I was subjected to a currently popular country-western song in which the singer boasted that "where I come from . . . I got a gun in my truck."

That sounds like a satirical cliché, but I garontee it isn't. This attitude is by no means new. Nearly a half-century ago now, the first publicly-noticed major mass slaughter-by-firearm took place in Austin, Texas, when Charles Whitman killed his family, then drove with an arsenal to the University of Texas campus where he invaded the famous Texas Tower, overlooking the city, killing at least one other person on his way in, then barricated him self 27 stories or so up, and commenced to sniping dozens of victims in the open public area around it. More than a dozen were killed, many others wounded. His siege occupied several hours, and made live national news. Eventually a heroic effort by a cop and a private citizen put an end to it, by killing him.

After the horror, his father was interviewed, and told reporters with obvious pride that Whitman had been brought up in a culture of guns, and that he, himself, was "a gun nut."

I'm not opposed to guns, but I am damn sure opposed to "gun nuts."

caw
For those not as ancient as blacbird or me, wikipedia has a pretty good outline of the details of this tragedy here. It's much as I remember them, except, of course there's more detail in the article.

I recall hearing something at the time about Whitman having had a brain tumor and there was conjecture as to whether or not it may have caused or contributed to his actions. Not surprisingly, there were different opinions. But it seems safe to say that there was something going on other than the fact he might have been a gun nut.

Interestingly, the article mentions that one of the involved officers credited the armed civilians returning Whitman's fire for saving many lives by forcing him to seek cover in an area where he could not target as many victims.
 

ShaunHorton

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I call bullshit on that whole "Guns don't kill people..." line. I mean, yes, a gun sitting on the counter by itself isn't usually going to go off and kill someone. But if you really want to argue that point, cigarettes don't kill people either, cancer does; yet, we went after the tobacco companies for things like targeting to minors, and paying off politicians for favorable legislation.
 

blacbird

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The biggest school killing took place in 1927.

Yes, I'm aware of it. But that was a bombing, orchestrated by a psychotic school employee.

In New Jersey during 1949, Howard unruh walked around his neighborhood killing 13 in 12 minutes.

Also correct, and I'm aware of this one, too. BUT, it was Whitman's rampage in 1966 that seems to have set off the long sequence of similar rampage shootings we have experienced since. Unruh's outburst happened very quickly, and before instant TV news. He was ultimately declared insane, and spent the rest of his life in psychiatric custody.

Whitman's episode was played out, live, on national TV. Only after Whitman did we get Essex, Huberty, Hennard, Barton, Sherrill, Harris/Klebold, Cho, Lanza, Hoimes, Loughner and numerous less voluminously deadly incicdents. During which time the access to horrendously powerful firearms proliferated greatly.

Other than that, I'm not quite sure what your point is here? Do you really propose that these incidents are kind of normal occurrences? Or that firearms aren't involved in them?

Or that the love of firearms doesn't contribute, with certain people to them? Adam Lanza's mother was a big gun enthusiast, and he used weapons readily available in the house to kill her and 26 other people in an elementary school, and himself, and left not a single useful clue why he did it.

So what exactly is the point of your post?

caw
 

waylander

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I'm kind of surprised they charged the boy's mom and not her boyfriend, as it was his gun. He'd be the one responsible for its storage, I'd think.

If you read the article quoted you'll see that they did but the case fell through
 

Lillith1991

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I dunno, you can bash someone's head pretty good with a rifle stock.

I think that Zoombie is trying to point out how ridiculous the assertions guns don't kill people is. Of course a person has to operate the gun to do the killing unless they're going to bash someones head in with one, just as someone has to wield a knife to stab someone to death. But you don't hear knife/sword lovers saying swords don't kill people like you always hear from radical gun lovers, A.K.A gun nuts. Inanimate objects can't kill on their own, normally it's people using said objects doing the killing.

A mountain can't literally kill someone after all or metal spikes for that matter, but a person can be killed climbing a mountain. And a person can either deliberately or accidentally be impaled on metal spikes.
 

robjvargas

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But you don't hear knife/sword lovers saying swords don't kill people like you always hear from radical gun lovers, A.K.A gun nuts. Inanimate objects can't kill on their own, normally it's people using said objects doing the killing.
Chicken vs egg.

When someone falls off a mountain, the mountain isn't blamed for the death. When someone is stabbed to death, the knife/sword isn't blamed for that.

Guns...

But, as I intimated first off, I'm not sure which came first, the saying or the blame.
 

Amadan

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I think that Zoombie is trying to point out how ridiculous the assertions guns don't kill people is. Of course a person has to operate the gun to do the killing unless they're going to bash someones head in with one, just as someone has to wield a knife to stab someone to death. But you don't hear knife/sword lovers saying swords don't kill people like you always hear from radical gun lovers, A.K.A gun nuts. Inanimate objects can't kill on their own, normally it's people using said objects doing the killing.

A mountain can't literally kill someone after all or metal spikes for that matter, but a person can be killed climbing a mountain. And a person can either deliberately or accidentally be impaled on metal spikes.

... Yes, thank you for explaining all that to me. I do not understand Earth humor.
 

Lillith1991

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Chicken vs egg.

When someone falls off a mountain, the mountain isn't blamed for the death. When someone is stabbed to death, the knife/sword isn't blamed for that.

Guns...

But, as I intimated first off, I'm not sure which came first, the saying or the blame.

I think guns get the blame because their pretty much sole function is to injure or to kill. Knives, swords, and other things have more than that function generally. Though one could argue that a swords main purpose is to also maime or kill, which makes the blaming guns pretty nonsensical.

Point is, that the assertion guns don't kill while technically logical comes across stinking of avoidance. Of course they don't kill on their own, but that doesn't make them safe either. A knife can't kill on it's own either, so the idea that guns are exempt because of hey humans...yea, that don't work for a lot of people. They see bullshit and they'll call it.
 

cmhbob

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That case looks a little strange from the article. Where was the assault? And how did any assault charge affect charges against Bauer for providing a gun to a felon?
 

Zoombie

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Chicken vs egg.

When someone falls off a mountain, the mountain isn't blamed for the death. When someone is stabbed to death, the knife/sword isn't blamed for that.

Guns...

But, as I intimated first off, I'm not sure which came first, the saying or the blame.

Actually, if there were massive amounts of people getting hacked to bits by swords, I'd be in favor of reducing the number of swords in public circulation...
 

Amadan

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Actually, if there were massive amounts of people getting hacked to bits by swords, I'd be in favor of reducing the number of swords in public circulation...


What if there were massive numbers of people being beaten to death with frozen legs of lamb?
 

Zoombie

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Then we'd have a serious sociological problem! See, guns are really really easy to kill people with. Swords, moderately easy (harder than guns, since you need to get in their face.)

But if enough people are beating each-other to death with frozen legs of lamb to be on the scale of our gun violence...then we've moved from normal criminality and mental health issues to some nightmarish alternate reality where half the population have turned into raving psychotics.
 

Amadan

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Then we'd have a serious sociological problem! See, guns are really really easy to kill people with. Swords, moderately easy (harder than guns, since you need to get in their face.)

But if enough people are beating each-other to death with frozen legs of lamb to be on the scale of our gun violence...then we've moved from normal criminality and mental health issues to some nightmarish alternate reality where half the population have turned into raving psychotics.

Okay, so it's the criminality/violence of the society that determines how restrictive you want their rights to be. So how would you address states with very liberal gun control laws that have low gun violence rates?