Guns don't kill people . . . . .

ShaunHorton

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I'm honestly not opposed to guns. I just think there is a lot more we could be doing to ensure the public's safety, and that there is a vocal minority with a lot of political clout through organizations like the NRA, who are desperate to have their toys no matter what the cost is.
 

Plot Device

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I think guns get the blame because their pretty much sole function is to injure or to kill. Knives, swords, and other things have more than that function generally. Though one could argue that a swords main purpose is to also maime or kill, which makes the blaming guns pretty nonsensical.

Point is, that the assertion guns don't kill while technically logical comes across stinking of avoidance. Of course they don't kill on their own, but that doesn't make them safe either. A knife can't kill on it's own either, so the idea that guns are exempt because of hey humans...yea, that don't work for a lot of people. They see bullshit and they'll call it.

I agree with you, meanwhile, I had to share this 4-minute YT video.

4 minutes, safe for work, but ... watch just the first 80 seconds to get the main gist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcLcsvw8rw0

.
 

robjvargas

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I believe that was paraphrasing.

But many people react in that spirit when gun control is brought up, even if they don't use those specific words in that order.

;) :tongue

Many is a funny word. 300,000 people is many, right? It's one-tenth of one percent (less, actually) of the US population but it still sounds like a lot.

And, since no one has figures on just how many people actually do what's alleged, no need to back it up with cites, either.
 

backslashbaby

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Bullshit. We shouldn't be paying for the right to bear arms with the lives of innocents....How many children every year get shot and killed by someone else in a drive by? I would like those numbers, whatever the may be to drop a whole damn lot. There are other innocents of course, but people identify the most with children who have been gunned down. This makes it the perfect comparison tool, the right of a child to be given the chance to survive childhood vs the right of some jerk to carry a gun if he wants to. For me a child wins every time.

Drive-byes aren't really about the 2nd Amendment, though. They are done with illegal guns, usually. I think we could do a whole lot by focusing on the illegal gun trade, also people who own guns illegally, etc.

We should focus on other things, too, of course, but I'd I'd like to see a hell of a lot being done about what is already illegal and extremely, extremely dangerous. Criminals (including straw buyers) are more dangerous than your average soccer mom who goes to the range on the weekends, as far as I'm concerned. Who has the gun does matter, and we know of lots of places where illegal gun use occurs all the damned time. We don't have huge investigations or punishments of that like we should, imho. For example, straw buyers hardly get a slap on the wrist. It just makes no sense.
 

cmhbob

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I'm honestly not opposed to guns. I just think there is a lot more we could be doing to ensure the public's safety (snip)

Like what? Seriously. I hear "we can do more," a LOT but I don't hear well-thought-out, constitutional ideas.

As a society, we seem to be OK with 30k-plus auto fatalities annually, but we don't restrict the right to travel or the right to vehicle ownership as a result of those crashes.

Some will argue that cars aren't designed to kill, but they overlook the idea that sometimes, it's acceptable to kill a person or an animal. And if you can't accept that, I'm not sure what kind of a conversation we can have.
 

robjvargas

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Like what? Seriously. I hear "we can do more," a LOT but I don't hear well-thought-out, constitutional ideas.

As a society, we seem to be OK with 30k-plus auto fatalities annually, but we don't restrict the right to travel or the right to vehicle ownership as a result of those crashes.

Yeah, actually, we do. Can't own a car without insurance, and if you get a hold of one, your license can be taken. This depend on the states, actually, but still, it *does* happen.
 

Zoombie

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Like what? Seriously. I hear "we can do more," a LOT but I don't hear well-thought-out, constitutional ideas.

As a society, we seem to be OK with 30k-plus auto fatalities annually, but we don't restrict the right to travel or the right to vehicle ownership as a result of those crashes.

There's a reason why I often bang on about self driving cars.

EDIT: If we treated guns exactly the way we treated cars, I would be REALLY happy.
 
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raburrell

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Yeah, actually, we do. Can't own a car without insurance, and if you get a hold of one, your license can be taken. This depend on the states, actually, but still, it *does* happen.

We also don't let 9 year olds toodle around in Ferraris, we suspend licenses for unsafe/drunken driving, etc.
 

ShaunHorton

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Like what? Seriously. I hear "we can do more," a LOT but I don't hear well-thought-out, constitutional ideas.

As a society, we seem to be OK with 30k-plus auto fatalities annually, but we don't restrict the right to travel or the right to vehicle ownership as a result of those crashes.

Some will argue that cars aren't designed to kill, but they overlook the idea that sometimes, it's acceptable to kill a person or an animal. And if you can't accept that, I'm not sure what kind of a conversation we can have.

Actually, we have LOTS of restrictions on cars. Age limits, speed limits, requirements for insurance and a license. Different license levels for different types of vehicles. Requirements for cars for them to be street legal. And if you screw up enough times you get your license suspended or revoked. Not to mention having to pass written and practice exams to get a license in the first place. Plus car manufacturers are continually working in new ways to make cars safer, both for the drivers and those around the vehicles, and that's on top of the minimum standards they are already required to have on every vehicle.

Well, would you agree with things like closing the loopholes many states have which only requires guns bought through gun shops to have background checks? How about smart-guns? I already know from past discussions that any kind of database where LEO could track weapons like they do cars or people is considered unconstitutional. How about requiring a safety or training course before you can get a permit for a firearm? Oh, except not all states even require any kind of permit to purchase and own a weapon.

Come to think of it, we should probably start at the federal level with restrictions and things, that way people aren't driving along one minute, and then conducting a felony as soon as they cross a state line. Except many people feel that ANY federal involvement in the subject of firearms is unconstitutional.

So what are we supposed to do? See how much of an issue that single word is in this matter?
 
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Monkey

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The keeping of guns in the home, even if for self-defense, makes everyone in the household less safe. Especially the kids.

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._show_firearms_endanger_kids_despite_nra.html

I often hear the argument that most uses of a gun for self-defense don't include actually shooting anyone; simply showing that there is a gun present calms things down.

Following links given in that article, studies have shown that self-reported uses of guns "for self-defense" that did not include anyone actually getting shot were usually, according to the testimony of those reporting, either A) a verbal dispute that escalated at least in part BECAUSE of the presence of the gun or B) a confrontation between multiple armed parties. Almost all of them were illegal, and they were greatly outnumbered by threatening exposure of a gun not intended as self-defense.

Also, recent studies have shown that " the mere presence of weapons increases aggression."

So, what we have is a situation where the presence of a gun has been shown to increase aggression and also to bring a lethal element into what would most likely have otherwise been non-lethal encounters. By every statistical measure, having a gun in the home is more likely to hurt or kill a member of the household than an intruder. Increased prevalence of guns = increased prevalence of gun deaths, even when factors such as poverty and population density are accounted for. Completed suicide rates, as opposed to attempted, go way up when guns are present - especially among adolescents.

Guns are not cars. They are meant to kill, and in some cases, they are specifically meant to kill other human beings. Some guns are meant to kill groups of humans.

And yet, while many could not get by day-to-day without our cars, we DO regulate the ever-living hell out of automobile use. You say we don't restrict car use? On what f-ing planet?

The risks of Joe Blow owning a weapon specifically designed to kill groups of humans, and which has no purpose OTHER than killing groups of humans or practicing to do so, has been shown over and over and over again to far outweigh the chances that Joe Blow will ever need such a weapon for self-defense. Not to mention that a use of a weapon such as, say, a fully automatic Uzi, in self-defense would be likely to create a lot of bystander deaths.

The same court decision that ruled the 2nd Amendment applied to individual gun owners ruled that restrictions on gun ownership did not violate the 2nd. And there are and always have been restrictions on what types of "arms" private citizens are allowed to bear. And yet, while you may not like the way it was said, the point made earlier is true: the NRA and many gun supporters rail against ANY new restrictions on guns, regardless of how small or rational they may be.

That's not a logical stance, and IMO, nor is it helpful or respectful to the lives lost each year in needless gun violence.

ETA: Oh, and as for "An armed society is a polite society?" The same study I linked earlier that showed the mere presence of a weapon INCREASES hostility pretty much put that one to rest.
The weapons effect occurs outside of the lab too. In one field experiment,[2] a confederate driving a pickup truck purposely remained stalled at a traffic light for 12 seconds to see whether the motorists trapped behind him would honk their horns (the measure of aggression). The truck contained either a .303-calibre military rifle in a gun rack mounted to the rear window, or no rifle. The results showed that motorists were more likely to honk their horns if the confederate was driving a truck with a gun visible in the rear window than if the confederate was driving the same truck but with no gun.
[...]
Research also shows that drivers with guns in their cars more likely to drive aggressively.[3] A nationally representative sample of over 2,000 American drivers found that those who had a gun in the car were significantly more likely to make obscene gestures at other motorists (23% vs. 16%), aggressively follow another vehicle too closely (14% vs. 8%), or both (6.3% vs. 2.8%), even after controlling for many other factors related to aggressive driving (e.g., gender, age, urbanization, census region, driving frequency).
 
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badwolf.usmc

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Other than that, I'm not quite sure what your point is here? Do you really propose that these incidents are kind of normal occurrences? Or that firearms aren't involved in them?

Or that the love of firearms doesn't contribute, with certain people to them?

So what exactly is the point of your post?

caw

Perception is reality, and that these events are not new. They have never been common, contrary to recent popular media attention, and have existed before modern firearms and firearm regulation.

If you increase regulations, they will continue to happen.
If you ban all firearms, they will continue to happen.
If you remove all regulations, they will continue to happen.
IMHO, the only way to keep them from happening is to identify and negate the triggers which lead to this happening. However, that requires we do distasteful things as a society, so instead of arguing about the mindset behind these crimes we argue about the tools.

Yes, I own firearms, several of them in fact. I would consider myself proficient in their use, but I don't feel the need to carry one around with me. I'm not a member of the NRA, nor am I in favor of banning firearms, but like most of the Constitution I believe it should reflect the times we live in. I've sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution several times so it means more to me than the average bear.
 

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Yeah, actually, we do. Can't own a car without insurance, and if you get a hold of one, your license can be taken. This depend on the states, actually, but still, it *does* happen.


More than that, even. There are all kinds of regulations on car technology and equipment, all of which has come about in response to safety and environmental issues. And on driving habits. Seat belts, lights, turn signals, air bags, catalytic converters, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, and by the way, there's statistical evidence that those regulations are working. Traffic fatalities are considerably down from their annual highs of some years ago, despite the fact that there are more vehicles on the road each year.

caw
 

clintl

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If you increase regulations, they will continue to happen.
If you ban all firearms, they will continue to happen.

That's true. No country has completely wiped out gun violence. But regulations and bannings can reduce their frequency (often dramatically - see Australia for a recent example).
 

Monkey

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http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/

In the days following a violent rampage in southern California in which a lone attacker killed seven individuals, including himself, and seriously injured over a dozen others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. [...] At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past five years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”

I think a satirical response is sometimes the best response.
 

cmhbob

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I don't have to have insurance on a car that is not operated on a public road. Nor do I have to have a license to operate it on private land, nor does it need to be registered. Actually, I don't even have to have a license to buy a car.

If I am prohibited from owning a car (has happened in relation to DUI arrests), no other member of my family is affected by that. If I am prohibited from owning a gun, no one who lives with me can reasonably own a gun.

My vehicle ownership rights are typically only affected by multiple DUI arrests. My vehicle operation rights can usually be easily regained if they are ever restricted. It can take multiple offenses for my vehicle operation rights are ever restricted. If my vehicle operation rights are ever restricted, I can typically have special privileges for work or school transportation.

And none of those things are meant to prevent crashes or illegal use of an automobile. They exist to make it easier to identify the legal owner.

Here's this, too: http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/blog/item/we-need-to-regulate-cars-the-way-we-regulate-guns

And dang it, I told myself I wasn't going to get into another gun thread in PCE.
 

kuwisdelu

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Many is a funny word. 300,000 people is many, right? It's one-tenth of one percent (less, actually) of the US population but it still sounds like a lot.

And, since no one has figures on just how many people actually do what's alleged, no need to back it up with cites, either.

Enough people that they can't be ignored.

That's too many.
 

Monkey

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Cmhbob: If we accepted all the restrictions that are on cars on guns, I think those freedoms would be well and truly balanced.

Agreed?
 
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badwolf.usmc

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That's true. No country has completely wiped out gun violence. But regulations and bannings can reduce their frequency (often dramatically - see Australia for a recent example).

I just did a quick google search on Australia and depending on the source the dramatic decline is debatable. I am not taking a position, only reporting what a 30 second google search presented.

However, the culture is different in Australia and enacting similar laws within the United States would not produce similar results. That is like saying an United States Constitution in Iraq should produce another version of the United States.
 

Xelebes

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Enough people that they can't be ignored.

That's too many.

I think when I last checked the numbers, 30 000 is around 15% of all violent deaths in a year. A violent death is a death that does not come about by disease or bodily failure, and so includes car accidents, natural disasters, drownings, suicides and homicides. In Canada, gun deaths only accounted for 2-3% of all violent deaths and saw 8% less violent deaths per capita.
 

robjvargas

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Also, recent studies have shown that " the mere presence of weapons increases aggression."

...

ETA: Oh, and as for "An armed society is a polite society?" The same study I linked earlier that showed the mere presence of a weapon INCREASES hostility pretty much put that one to rest.
The results showed that motorists were more likely to honk their horns if the confederate was driving a truck with a gun visible in the rear window than if the confederate was driving the same truck but with no gun.

Umm... no. It's entirely possible that those drivers, seeing a "confederate" (and what an interesting label that is for a scientific study), expected "him" to be courteous once attention was called to his lack of etiquette. I don't think honking one's horn is a violent act (not necessarily). So I see a failure of scientific pursuit there.
 

C.bronco

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. . . . . people who allow their children access to loaded guns they can take to school kill people. Or damn near do:

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/mother-of-boy-who-brought-gun-to-school-sentenced

I'm not categorically opposed to private ownership of firearms. But I am completely appalled by the American Romance of the Gun culture we have developed. This very evening I was subjected to a currently popular country-western song in which the singer boasted that "where I come from . . . I got a gun in my truck."

That sounds like a satirical cliché, but I garontee it isn't. This attitude is by no means new. Nearly a half-century ago now, the first publicly-noticed major mass slaughter-by-firearm took place in Austin, Texas, when Charles Whitman killed his family, then drove with an arsenal to the University of Texas campus where he invaded the famous Texas Tower, overlooking the city, killing at least one other person on his way in, then barricated him self 27 stories or so up, and commenced to sniping dozens of victims in the open public area around it. More than a dozen were killed, many others wounded. His siege occupied several hours, and made live national news. Eventually a heroic effort by a cop and a private citizen put an end to it, by killing him.

After the horror, his father was interviewed, and told reporters with obvious pride that Whitman had been brought up in a culture of guns, and that he, himself, was "a gun nut."

I'm not opposed to guns, but I am damn sure opposed to "gun nuts."

caw

If I remember correctly, he had a huge brain tumor, unbeknownst to him, that would have killed him anyway.
Brain damage is not taken as seriously as it should be, and there are many homes that should not have firearms.
Identifying them is part of the problem.
 

raburrell

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Umm... no. It's entirely possible that those drivers, seeing a "confederate" (and what an interesting label that is for a scientific study), expected "him" to be courteous once attention was called to his lack of etiquette. I don't think honking one's horn is a violent act (not necessarily). So I see a failure of scientific pursuit there.

They don't mean confederate as in stars and bars - it's an accepted term in that kind of study - Deception (methodological technique)
 

C.bronco

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I won a grant for college for an essay about nuclear weapons. The main argument was that the discovery of nuclear science provided a tool, and like all tools... screwdriver, saw, axe, could be used for good or bad. I believe that is sound.

On the other hand, the culture of accessiblity of firearms in the US does create more opportunity for misuse.


It is a very fine line between having an armed government and unarmed people and monitoring those who have the propensity for violence.
 
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Monkey

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Umm... no. It's entirely possible that those drivers, seeing a "confederate" (and what an interesting label that is for a scientific study), expected "him" to be courteous once attention was called to his lack of etiquette. I don't think honking one's horn is a violent act (not necessarily). So I see a failure of scientific pursuit there.

As Raburrel pointed out, confederate is an accepted term. But also, this was simulating being stalled - an issue that does not imply a lack of etiquette and can't be remedied with horn honking. Honking at someone who is stalled out was not being considered "violent," but "aggressive," much like tailgating, cutting someone off in traffic, or flipping the bird at another driver. And if this was in any way about courtesy rather than expressing irritation, why would people honk so much more when a gun was present?