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Lillibridge Press

BenPanced

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I don't know what kind of acknowledgment you were hoping for, but IMO it's normal for authors to be very happy with a press when in the honeymoon stage.

If an author continues to be happy with them after a year or so, after the royalty checks have come in, I put more stock in that.

Publishers behaving less than professionally, and authors defending their particular publishers nevertheless, are also fairly common in this particular forum. Not just in this thread but with other ones as well.

What kind of acknowledgement were you looking for? You made a post saying that you were satisfied with your experience so far.

Cool.

Your experience to date however, does not negate the concerns that I have about this company.

In addition, while you may have had a good editing experience, your book isn't on sale yet and what would go a long way to meeting my concerns is finding out what kind of distribution and marketing support you get and how that translates into sales.



That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Personally, I think that that the passive-aggressive attitude displayed on thread is uncalled for.



And?

If you don't like what people are saying here or how they say it, then don't read the posts here. For me personally, bleating about people's tone and generally behaving as though you're a disappointed parent doesn't wash. I speak as a find, I say what I mean and I give respect where I get it.



Okey dokey then.

MM

xxFireSpiritxx, we all hope you will continue to have a good experience with this press.


We just don't think it's likely. If you go through the B&BC threads, you will see many occasions where people have said "This publisher is excellent, and you guys are all being mean!" and then the very same people have come back six months or a year later and said, "You guys were right." (The Cacoethes and Blu Phi'er threads are particularly rich ones for examples of this.)

If Lillibridge Press makes a go of it, finds good distribution, adopts a more professional attitude, and does your book proud, we will all be delighted for you and for them. Seriously. Nobody wants you to fail, and nobody wants them to fail.

But the signs aren't good so far. That's the truth; nobody's saying it to be mean, they're reporting their observations.

xxFireSpritxx, I am ecoing what IceCream said. We DO NOT want you or Lillibridge Press to fail. Infact we would love for you and Lillibridge to be here selling books years from now. The people who commented are giving there views after YEARS of experience of seeing different presses. You put your heart and soul into your MS and we want to make sure that if you go with publisher/agent that your not unaware of anything about them. The point of this section is not to sugar coat things. In the writing world you NEED to develop a thick skin. There have been times a press/agent has been questioned by the writers and others on here, and make no mistake about it that is what this section is for, and have maintained a high level of profeshonalism. But Lillibridge has evaded answering tugh questions and has given snarky/passive-agressive answers and unwilling to change. I'm sorry but, usualy that means they have something to hide.

Many of the members posting in this thread are the very same people who warmly welcomed you to AW when you were still in your honeymoon stage with PublishAmerica. It took you some time to realize the error you had made and I'm afraid you have done exactly the same thing by signing with Lillibridge, because you are once again ignoring sage advice and opinions from the same people who warned you about PA.

I add my voice to those who have wished you luck and hope that you will continue to post your experiences (good and bad) with this publisher, so that your fellow AW writers can determine what exactly Lillibridge has to offer.

~brianm~

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No fair, xxFireSpritxx. People responded, you didn't like what you read, so you went back and essentially edited your post away.
 

brainstorm77

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Most of the post was quoted before it was deleted anyway.

I do wish you the best of luck with your book. I hope you have great success and many sales.
 

CScottMorris

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My agent is currently subbing my darkfantasy/steampunk novel to LP. I trust her to not only research a pub, but to negotiate a fair contract. If I didn't, I would not have signed with her.
I see some valid concerns here, and some not so valid.
What I see is most telling, is that the only person with any DIRECT experience with the publisher in question, has nothing but good things to say. Everybody else's opinion should be taken as only an opinion, until you have worked with the publisher directly.
I look forward to receiving an offer, and negotiating the contract to suit both of our needs.
 

veinglory

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I don't think subjective experience is really what is salient, but concrete sales. And no one know what those are like....
 

Jamiekswriter

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Cscott - congrats on the agent and the submission. I hope you did your research and have goals and that both your agent and LP can meet or even exceed them. I'm being sincere when I wish you all the luck in the world.

I have a concern though. As far as I know -- and Lillibridge may have changed since I last looked, they don't pay advances. So your agent isn't going to get paid until you get paid royalties and then they'll take 15%. (I'm assuming anyway.)

I'm not sure what motivated them to send it to LP when they could have negotiated a more lucrative deal with an advance paying publisher.

And on the other hand, you don't need an agent to submit to Lillibridge. So in essence, you're giving away 15% of your profits.

Would you be comfortable with telling me who your agent is? You can PM me if you don't want to put it in the forum for some reason. The reason I ask is I'm submitting to lots of agents and I don't want to submit to yours. If I decide that LP is a match for what I want, I'm going to submit to them on my own. (Although, I'm not sure they're what I'm looking for either, but I'm keeping my options open.)

I honestly hope things take off for you. LP does have some really smoking covers!
 

Marian Perera

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What I see is most telling, is that the only person with any DIRECT experience with the publisher in question, has nothing but good things to say.

Isn't the only person with any DIRECT experience still in the honeymoon stage with this publisher?

Everybody else's opinion should be taken as only an opinion, until you have worked with the publisher directly.
And many of those are informed opinions backed up by experience. You don't need to eat a cow pie to know it might not taste too good.
 
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CScottMorris

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Dont get me wrong, there is a TON of experience and wisdom on this site, and I listen to it.
Again, I feel there were many valid points made. But there was also a lot of net-ranting with nothing to back it up. LP addressed the issues as well as a human being could be expected to. They initially altered their contract when they received criticism, and then defended their position. I have no problem with that behavior. They are not required to please everyone, and if it turns out they have unfair practices, they will soon fail and disappear.
To address other concerns, my agent is S Hernandez, the ebook specialist with L Perkins. She mostly does erotica and romance, and some fantasy. And she is dedicated to helping writers navigate the oftentimes confusing changes to the publishing trade that ebooks are causing. I chose to query her, because i want to be part of the ebook revolution. She knows her trade, and is part of an experienced, and reputable agency, and she has quite a few sales under her belt. If she fells LP is the right fit for me and my book, then LP is the right fit for me and my book. And I can always turn down their offer if Im not happy with it, and if they wont negotiate the contract, which I believe they will.
Jamie, the number of publishers offering advances is shrinking. In fact, almost no ebook publishers offer advances. And with ebook, I get 30% royalty, instead of 6 to 8% for paperback. And you have to pay back an advance with those royalties. Also, many of the big publishers(I hesitate to say traditional), are now putting in clauses requiring the author to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out after a couple of years.
Pretty much the only time it really makes sense any more to go with one of the Big Six, is if you are a best seller. Though I am sure there are a lot of conflicting opinions and experiences here. These are just my observations, and Im not yet published.
Ill take my 30% of a $6 ebook over 8% of a $8 paperback(which I might not ever see if I dont earn out).
I dont expect my first novel to be a huge hit. I would love it if it was, but I have no illusions. I do expect to use my first book to sell more copies of my second book, which will be used to sell more copies of my third, etc. I have no problem starting out with a small ebook publisher to achieve those goals.
In fact, smaller pubs often let rights revert back to the author after a few years(3 years with LP, but 5 is common), while the Big Six keep rights pretty much forever(70 to 90 years after death). If my book sells, I can shop it around with bigger publishers, and if not, I can self pub and keep that trickle of royalties or sub another small pub who might market better.
 

Unimportant

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Also, many of the big publishers(I hesitate to say traditional), are now putting in clauses requiring the author to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out after a couple of years.
Can you tell me which publishers' contracts you've seen this in? (Or which authors have stated that it's in their contracts.) I have never heard of any publisher doing this.


In fact, smaller pubs often let rights revert back to the author after a few years(3 years with LP, but 5 is common), while the Big Six keep rights pretty much forever(70 to 90 years after death).
Can you tell me which publishers' contracts you've seen this in? I've only ever seen one contract that took rights for the life of copyright and did not have a rights reversion clause tied to sales figures, and that was not with one of the Big 6.
 

Jamiekswriter

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Cscott - thanks for taking the time for answering my questions.

I've heard great things about Saritza. She's not for me because I want to commercially publish. But I'm a big fan of the Perkins agency. Especially since Sandy Lu has one of my fulls! LOL

Since you want to e-publish, Saritza sounds like a perfect fit for you. I tend to think of things in only print versions. I'm certainly going to follow your story and I'm looking forward to reading your book. Please keep us informed about what happens.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you getting your info about the big publishers asking to be paid back for an advance that doesn't earn out? Because that's a very big deal to me. I know you have to "earn out" your advance before you get any royalties, but as far as I know, you *never* have to pay the advance money back. And again if you got names, I want 'em because I don't want to submit to them either ::grin::

You may never get another book contract under that name again if you don't earn out your advance, but that's what nom de plumes are for.

Anyway, if you do get an offer from LP if you could share their marketing plans or the sales figures, it would be really helpful.

Good luck and fingers crossed!
 

CScottMorris

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Sadly, I dont have a source to quote. I have been researching the publishing industry for over a year now, reading trade news and blogs whenever and where ever I find them. I simply cannot bookmark everything I find of interest.
The information I gave were generalizations, not absolutes, and do not apply to all publishers.
With rights, I poked around LP's sight and found out they let rights revert after three years. Maybe five, dont remember. Keeping print rights 70 years after death is pretty much standard practice for print publishers. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
As for payback clauses, I think this is a new trend. Many contracts detail pay-outs in three stages, 1/3 upon acceptance of completed manuscript, and the final third upon print. But I have heard that some contracts for unproven writers break that up into quarters, with 1/4 being withheld against returns. Those are getting to be more, and more common, and I have heard of some contracts that require the writer to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out in two or five years. I have no evidence of this, so please chime in if you have heard either way.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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Also, many of the big publishers(I hesitate to say traditional), are now putting in clauses requiring the author to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out after a couple of years.

This is not true. Full stop.

I don't know where you heard this, but if you heard it from your agent I would suggest that this does not augur well for her understanding of the US publishing industry as a whole.

I was drafting this response while you posted your other post, apparently, because I missed this from your later post:

As for payback clauses, I think this is a new trend.
No, it's an urban legend.

Many contracts detail pay-outs in three stages, 1/3 upon acceptance of completed manuscript, and the final third upon print. But I have heard that some contracts for unproven writers break that up into quarters, with 1/4 being withheld against returns.
You have heard wrong.

Those are getting to be more, and more common, and I have heard of some contracts that require the writer to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out in two or five years.
I'm sorry, this is all nonsense. Whoever told you this either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is actively lying to you, or is misrepresenting something (perhaps the publisher in question are marginal operations, not mainstream US commercial publishers?)

Also, to be quite honest, I think you've got some nerve accusing other people on this thread of pot-stirring without direct personal experience when you come here with this "I have heard! This is a new trend!" nonsense. Other people on this thread are speaking from years of experience in the publishing industry, and in some cases as activists for writers' rights, not from unfounded rumor.
 
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IceCreamEmpress

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Keeping print rights 70 years after death is pretty much standard practice for print publishers. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Most commercial print publication contracts in the US do, indeed, assign a particularly defined set of publication rights for the life of the copyright. Here's a good look at why that isn't generally a bad thing.

Now, if e-publishing feels more appealing to you because you prefer to assign publication rights for a shorter term, kudos to you for choosing that. But I think people reading the thread who may not be familiar with the publishing industry need to be clear about what life-of-copyright contracts actually mean.
 

CScottMorris

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OK, first, I started out pointing out how I think this site is full of excellent and useful information. I said there was SOME pot-stirring. It happens on all sites, even this one.
I also pointed out my inexperience, and asked for clarification.
My agent did not give me erroneous information, that was all things I gathered from my time browsing various sites. I welcome correction.
Frankly, I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. However, it takes more than an assertion that I am wrong to do so. I know, I dont have proof to back up my claims, and yet I expect you to. I stated what I have discovered online, and again, pointed out it might be incorrect. You have corrected me by asserting I am wrong. Statement of fact, not opinion. See the difference? I am unable to provide links or quotes to back up my statements. I would welcome any if you could provide them, mostly because the trends I have come across worry me. I would rather be wrong.
Yes, I lack experience with the publishing industry. I am trying to remedy that. And this site, with all of the valued experience contained within, helps with that cause.
The last thing I want to do is offend people.
I also hope people will educate themselves before making a decision based upon the ramblings of an inexperienced, unproven author.
 
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Stacia Kane

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I have never heard of a contract where the advance needs to be paid back if not earned out. None of my commercially published friends--and without sounding braggy, I have a LOT of them--have that in their contracts. My agent has never dealt with or seen such a thing, and would not allow me to sign a contract with such a clause. It is simply Not Done, full stop.


Some publishers do break advances into quarters, that is true, but normally the first two are paid close together in the beginning.

And yes, all publishers withhold some reserve against returns. That does NOT come out of the advance, it comes out of the royalties earned after the book's release. It's a pain in the butt, but it's also good business for them, and it's not usually withheld forever (I can't speak with utter confidence about how long it's withheld, but I believe in most cases it's a year or two).

The publisher takes all of the risk. Period. If the book loses money, the author may have a hard time getting another deal without changing names, but they've been paid for the publishing rights, and the publisher doesn't get to take some of that money back. if a publisher was asking to do that, or contractually requiring it, it would be discussed all over the place. It's not happening.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Keeping print rights 70 years after death is pretty much standard practice for print publishers. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

That's a big old "Yes, but."

Any reasonable contract (i.e. one that I'd consider signing) has a reversion clause that specifies when the rights come back to me. It's generally of the nature that if they fail to sell a certain number in a certain time, the rights return to me.

That forces them to actively market the book. As long as they can keep selling it, I'm happy to keep cashing their checks. If they can't sell it, they lose it.
 

Momento Mori

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CScottMorris:
They are not required to please everyone, and if it turns out they have unfair practices, they will soon fail and disappear.

And that is precisely the problem. Such publishers screw over authors, usually take some of the author's cash with them and then go under, taking the first publication rights to the author's story/novel with them. In some cases, because they disappear without reverting publication rights, authors are left with literally nothing.

Better to know the risk of that in advance and either avoid/make an informed decision of all the risks, than to go in thinking it will all go wonderfully.

CScottMorris:
Jamie, the number of publishers offering advances is shrinking.

There are plenty of print publishers out there still offering advances. The amount of that advance might be shrinking (that's a sign of the economy), but they'll still pay cash up front.

CScottMorris:
And you have to pay back an advance with those royalties. Also, many of the big publishers(I hesitate to say traditional), are now putting in clauses requiring the author to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out after a couple of years.

I'm joining the chorus of people calling bullshit on this. If your only source for this is what you've heard on the internet, then I think you need to do some more research - starting with asking your agent what the situation is.

CScottMorris:
Pretty much the only time it really makes sense any more to go with one of the Big Six, is if you are a best seller.

Again, bullshit. The Big Six take on plenty of new authors - they need to. Established bestsellers can't be the sole source of their revenue, they have to look at opening new avenues and that means taking a risk on a new name with a book they think will appeal to the public.

CScottMorris:
In fact, smaller pubs often let rights revert back to the author after a few years(3 years with LP, but 5 is common), while the Big Six keep rights pretty much forever(70 to 90 years after death).

Like Jim said, the Big Six will have a rights reversion clause in their contracts dealing with the situation when the book goes out of print or they stop selling it.

For most publishers, it's in their interests to not have a set contract term for the publishing rights because you never know when a sleeper book is suddenly going to go big - look at Dan Brown for example, his Da Vinci Code helped propel sales of his first Landon book, Angels and Demons back into the bestseller charts several years after it was first published. A break out hit can revitalise a back catalogue for an author and a publisher can't cash in on that if they timed out their contract.

CScottMorris:
If my book sells, I can shop it around with bigger publishers, and if not, I can self pub and keep that trickle of royalties or sub another small pub who might market better.

I'd be surprised if your agent was happy for you to self-publish (but then I'm surprised she's submitting to this particular publisher when it doesn't pay an advance). You should really be speaking to her about options if she's unable to place the book and you should definitely be working on something else in the interim.

CScottMorris:
As for payback clauses, I think this is a new trend. Many contracts detail pay-outs in three stages, 1/3 upon acceptance of completed manuscript, and the final third upon print. But I have heard that some contracts for unproven writers break that up into quarters, with 1/4 being withheld against returns.

Splitting an advance into thirds isn't new. My agent tries to negotiate advances into two chunks only, but she says it's becoming more the case for it to be thirds. Never heard of it being split in four and definitely never heard of advances being withheld against returns. No agent worth their salt is ever going to let that fly.

CScottMorris:
I have heard of some contracts that require the writer to pay back any part of the advance that does not earn out in two or five years. I have no evidence of this, so please chime in if you have heard either way.

I'm chiming in to say you can add it to the 'pile of bull' as something you can safely ignore.

Again, given that you have an agent now, I'd expect you to be running stuff like this past her rather than repeating it as something that might be true.

MM
 

eqb

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My two latest contracts are from two different publishes, Viking and Tor. One publisher pays half on signing, half on delivery-and-acceptance. The other pays in thirds. Neither contract requires me to back the advance. Both of them are for life of copyright, but with the reversion clause Jim describes.
 

eqb

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You may never get another book contract under that name again if you don't earn out your advance, but that's what nom de plumes are for.

It's not necessarily a dire thing if you don't earn out your advance. The real problem is if your book doesn't make a profit. The two are not synonymous.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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My confusion here, and I do hope that someone can enlighten me, is what is an agent doing submitting an author's work to a small press with less than a year's experience and who won't be paying any advances?

From what I see the publisher accepts submissions without an agent. So what is there to gain by the agent sending the author's work there?

Is it possible there's another press with the same name, perhaps?

:Shrug:
 

CScottMorris

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Well, I stand corrected.
My intent was not to appear to defend LP, but to present some of the information I had come across and answer a question or two.
Since I appear to have been way off, I am glad at least that there were experienced people to correct me. I would hate to think anyone made a decision based upon such inaccurate information.
Has no-one else come across the same rumors I have? Pay-back clauses and such?
Sheryl, Agents do more than just negotiate contracts, they also help promote books. Of course, now I am doubting everything I have learned in the last year, so, dont quote me on that.
Also, publishers that accept un-agented submissions might very well give preference to a submission from an agent over the slush pile.
As for the rest of my apparently erroneous information, I have not had time to speak to my agent about theoretical contracts, we've not been working together long and have only now begun to submit to publishers. Most of our conversations have been about the book, how to strengthen the hook, or fix this plot hole, etc.
Once(if) an offer comes in, then we will have that discussion.
 

eqb

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Has no-one else come across the same rumors I have? Pay-back clauses and such?

I come across those rumors all the time. I have yet to see any proof.

Sheryl, Agents do more than just negotiate contracts, they also help promote books.

My agent does a lot of things, but she doesn't promote my books. That's the publisher's job.
 

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Has no-one else come across the same rumors I have? Pay-back clauses and such?
Constantly. They were seeded by the vanity presses to scare new writers into paying for "self-publishing" services, and are now pushed by amateur e/POD houses to convince you they're the best you can do.

In short, decide what you want for your book, then seek out those who have achieved that, and listen to them.
 

Momento Mori

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CScottMorris:
Has no-one else come across the same rumors I have? Pay-back clauses and such?

I've only ever heard statements like that from:

(a) vanity or self-publishing companies seeking to justify not paying an advance; or

(b) authors who've used vanity or self-publishing companies and are seeking to justify their not having been paid an advance.

CScottMorris:
Sheryl, Agents do more than just negotiate contracts, they also help promote books.

My agent doesn't do that. She'll help liaise with the publisher on promotion activities (including promotion activities that an author might be doing themselves) or she might put me in touch with some good book PR people who can help (but who will want a fee) or she might look for opportunities to participate in anthology works with bigger name authors to increase name recognition, but she won't do promotion work herself. It's not her job and it's not where her skillset is.

CScottMorris:
I have not had time to speak to my agent about theoretical contracts, we've not been working together long and have only now begun to submit to publishers

This is a bit OT, but did she consult with you before sending it out to publishers - was there a list of editors she really wanted to target or did you discuss the kind of home/advance you were looking for?

I ask because although I'm still in rewrites for my agent, we've had several conversations about who she's already spoken to about my book and I've got 10 publishers lined up to receive the finished version, plus overseas editors and we've got a good idea who would be the best fit and what sort of thing I'd be looking for if I got more than one offer.

MM
 

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Chiming in on the payback issue: it's a myth. Authors do not have to pay back their advances.

Some reputable agents work with epublishers like Samhain, which pay no advances but have an established reputation for volume sales. I seriously question, however, the knowledge and judgment of an agent who would submit to an epublisher that doesn't have such a reputation, especially when that publisher has poor contract (there's nothing in Lillibridge's comments here to indicate that it has addressed the most problematic clauses).

I have to say I also question the wisdom of giving full agenting responsibilities to someone whose only publishing experience is in textbook publishing (the textbook market is nothing like the trade book market), and whose only prior agenting experience was submitting to epublishers for a few friends who asked her for help. (See Ms. Hernandez's blog.)

- Victoria