This is my new motto.
Someone in another adverd thread said "adverbs are autotune for writers."
Loved that. Should have given points for it.
I don't mind them here and there. Everywhere? Bleh.
This is my new motto.
Mea culpa, Jaksen. I do tend to roll eyes and drop eyes. You can say, "He raised his eyes to Heaven," or "She looked down," but I really don't think there's anything wrong with rolling them or dropping them or fixing them on something, any more than with folding arms or curling up in a chair. Or, for that matter, sinking hearts or stomach clutches. You have to have some way to say these things.
"You know I love you," he said coldly.
is miles away from
"You know I love you," he said softly.
As writers, we should be allowed to write all the adverbs we want in first draft. However, in rewrites, we need to examine every adverb and adjective to see if they've earned their places in the storytelling, instead of being a crutch or a lazy step.
I don't see this, Ray. Most of the 'readers' I know don't consider adverbs to be a problem, and they certainly don't make assumptions about the writer being lazy or lame for using adverbs. They just enjoy the story.
What makes you think readers feel the way you say?
Seriously. You're using JK Rowling as an example of the pitfalls of using adverbs?Because I know enough readers who do. Those who, for example, enjoyed JK Rowling's HP series but also NOTICED the overuse of adverbs. In truth the adverbs are not the only problem. Usually when a writer uses too many adverbs, there are other things such as weak dialogue to begin with, too much tell instead of show, weak word choices, etc. It doesn't mean the story isn't good -- some authors are selling millions and millions of their copies, even though most people wouldn't call them "great writers."
Can become, using the show not tell rule of thumb...
"Course I loves you. I married you didn't I?"
Which Ollie Reed, as Bill Sykes, we're on the film version of Oliver Twist here, muttered to Nancy just before killing her.
So the trick is not to use to lazy adverbs. And I'm still trying to master that myself.
Seriously. You're using JK Rowling as an example of the pitfalls of using adverbs?
I didn't make any personal jabs, Ray.Yes. Even Rowling herself said her (earlier) books would be stronger without the adverbs. She used far fewer adverbs in her later books in the series and generally people admit her later books are stronger.
I used Rowling because her story and characters were strong and compensated for her overuse of adverbs, not BECAUSE of the adverbs. What, do you rather me use an obscure writer who's stuck in slush pile to make my point? Just head off to the slushkiller and you shall see plenty of examples.
Like I said, Rob, go ahead and use adverbs to your heart's desire. It's really none of my business. We can agree to disagree right now without that personal jabs.
Mea culpa, Jaksen. I do tend to roll eyes and drop eyes. You can say, "He raised his eyes to Heaven," or "She looked down," but I really don't think there's anything wrong with rolling them or dropping them or fixing them on something, any more than with folding arms or curling up in a chair. Or, for that matter, sinking hearts or stomach clutches. You have to have some way to say these things.
I didn't make any personal jabs, Ray.
I don't find using Rowling to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs at all convincing, given her wealth from writing.
I finished an ly pass on my wip last night. It was just about as scary as you can get! I rid myself of about 250 of them (word count is 45k). It led me to realize how often I type (and say) the words certainly and lovely.
I'm going to write some more before I do my that pass -- she shuttered.
I wouldn't use them to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs. It's not much of a pitfall if you achieve commercial success. It has nothing to do with the pinnacle of writing, no-one has suggested that about them or about Rowling.Dan Brown and the guy who wrote Bridges of Madison County are also rich.....do you consider them the pinnacle of writing?
Again, no-one has suggested that Rowling is bulletproof, so no-one is being silly as far as I can see. We're talking about the pitfalls of using adverbs.Writers with bad, or even terrible habits can still tell compelling stories, suggesting Rowling is somehow bulletproof because of sales figures, especially when she herself has admitted to her faults, seems a bit silly
Nothing is all bad, of course, but in my mind, there are far better ways to show what the adverb is saying.
For instance:
"You know I love you," he said coldly.
What about:
"You know I love you," he said, his voice hard.
I wouldn't use them to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs. It's not much of a pitfall if you achieve commercial success. It has nothing to do with the pinnacle of writing, no-one has suggested that about them or about Rowling.
Again, no-one has suggested that Rowling is bulletproof, so no-one is being silly as far as I can see. We're talking about the pitfalls of using adverbs.
I don't see this, Ray. Most of the 'readers' I know don't consider adverbs to be a problem, and they certainly don't make assumptions about the writer being lazy or lame for using adverbs. They just enjoy the story.
What makes you think readers feel the way you say?
I didn't say there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Brown's writing. You introduced Brown into the conversation, and I said I wouldn't use him to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs.hmmm, so since they sold, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with brown's writings? interesting argument. perhaps they sold on other merits....just a hypothesis of course
I didn't point out anyone and say carte blanche that you should do whatever you like. I said that I don't find using her (Rowling) to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs convincing.to point out folks who succeeded DESPITE their weaknesses as carte blanche to do whatever you like is the silly part. Rowling hit it big DESPITE the fact her initial works ran on adverbs. Not because of it. Her work would have been stronger without.
I didn't point to her and say that adverbs are not an issue. I said I don't find using her (Rowling) to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs convincing.So pointing to her and saying since she did it, adverbs must not be an issue is like pointing to a porsche and saying there is no reason any car can't go from zero to sixty in X seconds.....it diminished rowlings work but the rest of it was good enough to overcome that.
I haven't denied that they weakened her work, or accepted it either. I said that I don't find using her (Rowling) to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs convincing.Most folks are not going to be that lucky, and if you like using adverbs that's perfectly fine, but it is indeed silly to deny the fact they weakened her work, and weaken anyone else's as well, if used to excess. She still cleared the hurdle, emulating her adverb usage with the defense "she did it" greatly increases the odds you will not.
Thank you.i'll give you that many casual readers will not.
Those books by Rowling, Brown and vast numbers of other commercially successful novels went through the same agent/editor process.Many will, including most agents, editors, critics, etc......"gatekeeper" folks.
Why the massive hate for adverbs in dialogue tags? Can it ever be done "right?"
For example,
"You know I love you," he said coldly.
is miles away from
"You know I love you," he said softly.
So. Adverbs in dialogue tags. All bad? Or can they work in certain cases?
Wealth is not synonymous with good writing.