Portraying a Classic Character

inkblots · Oct 20, 2014

Hello! My WIP is a retelling of Sherlock Holmes as teenager told from dual perspective of Sherlock and Mycroft. While I use a variety of characters the main characters I portray from Sherlock Holmes are Sherlock, Mycroft, Watson, Irene, and Moriarty. My question is to what level do I have to portray their personalities from Sir Arthur Canon Doyle's original works. If you were reading a retelling how accurate to the original do you want it to be? And what is your opinion about love interests? If the character has a romantic relation does it have to be from the original novel's canon or am I allowed to differ? Thank you for any suggestions! :snoopy:

Sonsofthepharaohs · Oct 20, 2014

What you're talking about is fanfiction, and there are other communities and forums dedicated to discussing stories about existing characters and fandoms.

You'll find that there is a massive amount of Sherlock fanfiction already online, and that might be a good place for you to start.

inkblots · Oct 20, 2014

I am going to have to polite fully disagree with you. This novel is similar to The Clockwork Scarab or Death Cloud in the sense that it is a novel about characters that are now in free usage. The Lizzie Bennet Diaries, while a retelling of Pride and Prejudice can be sold on DVD, because the novel has lost copyright protection. Did you perhaps think I was retelling the television show Sherlock? I believe that it is appropriate for me to rewrite the original works of Sir Arthur Canon Doyle.

veinglory · Oct 20, 2014

This is Sherlock so it pays to be accurate as a good portion of the fandom will scream if you don't. Which includes Sherlock not meeting Watson until canon says he did -- young Sherlock movie withstanding.

veinglory · Oct 20, 2014

Also some stories are under copyright and the estate says the characters are trademarked -- a claim they litigate sporadically

inkblots · Oct 20, 2014

veinglory said:
Also some stories are under copyright and the estate says the characters are trademarked -- a claim they litigate sporadically

Yes but the characters I am using for my retelling are Sir Arthur Canon Doyle's not BBC's so I should be good. Thank you for your concern though.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Oct 20, 2014

veinglory said:
Also some stories are under copyright and the estate says the characters are trademarked -- a claim they litigate sporadically

inkblots said:
Yes but the characters I am using for my retelling are Sir Arthur Canon Doyle's not BBC's so I should be good. Thank you for your concern though.

I think veinglory is correct - the estate of ACD still holds the rights to 10 stories published between 1923 and 1927, and claims that the characters are trademarked. I know there was recently a landmark ruling against the estate when they tried to prevent someone publishing a novel without paying them a licence fee, but the fact is that they WILL try to sue anyone who tries to make money off the characters without coughing up for the privilege. This makes it a less commercially viable enterprise from the get-go, whether the lawsuit is successful or not, because you still have to defend it.

If you're writing for your own enjoyment, then the fanfiction label applies. If you're writing with the hope of publication... good luck. But you'll need to write a truly stonking novel, because you wouldn't be the only one with that idea, and the obstacles to publication are even more than if you used your own original characters.

inkblots · Oct 20, 2014

Kallithrix said:
I think veinglory is correct - the estate of ACD still holds the rights to 10 stories published between 1923 and 1927, and claims that the characters are trademarked. I know there was recently a landmark ruling against the estate when they tried to prevent someone publishing a novel without paying them a licence fee, but the fact is that they WILL try to sue anyone who tries to make money off the characters without coughing up for the privilege. This makes it a less commercially viable enterprise from the get-go, whether the lawsuit is successful or not, because you still have to defend it.

If you're writing for your own enjoyment, then the fanfiction label applies. If you're writing with the hope of publication... good luck. But you'll need to write a truly stonking novel, because you wouldn't be the only one with that idea, and the obstacles to publication are even more than if you used your own original characters.

Wow, I did not realize that... I was under the impression that the copyright still works as 70 years after the death of the author, is that wrong?

thisprovinciallife · Oct 20, 2014

inkblots said:
Wow, I did not realize that... I was under the impression that the copyright still works as 70 years after the death of the author, is that wrong?

From what I know, when it comes to some big-name authors with estates taking care of their works/copyrights (like ACD, Tolkien, Lewis) the rules change a bit.

I think Kallithrix is right: most of the ACD stories are in the public domain, but around ten of his most recent stories aren't, and there seem to be some complicated legal issues still going on. It might be hard to navigate and you'd probably benefit from discussing the matter with an agent or lawyer.

My two cents, though--if you use the original character names, and keep personalities/story lines similar to canon, you will always run the risk of being labeled as fanfic, simply because there are so many Sherlock stories out there. But I'm not saying that you can't do it, or that it won't be awesome! I am all for retellings

You should check out Jackaby as an example of something different --it's about a teen detective, with a hint of paranormal going on (pitched as DOCTOR WHO meets SHERLOCK).

inkblots · Oct 20, 2014

thisprovinciallife said:
From what I know, when it comes to some big-name authors with estates taking care of their works/copyrights (like ACD, Tolkien, Lewis) the rules change a bit.

I think Kallithrix is right: most of the ACD stories are in the public domain, but around ten of his most recent stories aren't, and there seem to be some complicated legal issues still going on. It might be hard to navigate and you'd probably benefit from discussing the matter with an agent or lawyer.

My two cents, though--if you use the original character names, and keep personalities/story lines similar to canon, you will always run the risk of being labeled as fanfic, simply because there are so many Sherlock stories out there. But I'm not saying that you can't do it, or that it won't be awesome! I am all for retellings

You should check out Jackaby as an example of something different --it's about a teen detective, with a hint of paranormal going on (pitched as DOCTOR WHO meets SHERLOCK).

Thank you for your advice! My story is about a teen Sherlock, Watson, Irene, and Mycroft so it would follow their basic personality traits if they were a bit younger (Watson a bit quicker to take risks, Mycroft a bit more arrogant) It follows them as they try to take on the mystery of Jack the Ripper with some elements of the classic Sherlock stories. I would hope that wouldn't be fan fiction, but I guess I'll figure it out along the way. Thank you!

Dave.C.Robinson · Oct 20, 2014

thisprovinciallife said:
From what I know, when it comes to some big-name authors with estates taking care of their works/copyrights (like ACD, Tolkien, Lewis) the rules change a bit.

I think Kallithrix is right: most of the ACD stories are in the public domain, but around ten of his most recent stories aren't, and there seem to be some complicated legal issues still going on. It might be hard to navigate and you'd probably benefit from discussing the matter with an agent or lawyer.

My two cents, though--if you use the original character names, and keep personalities/story lines similar to canon, you will always run the risk of being labeled as fanfic, simply because there are so many Sherlock stories out there. But I'm not saying that you can't do it, or that it won't be awesome! I am all for retellings

You should check out Jackaby as an example of something different --it's about a teen detective, with a hint of paranormal going on (pitched as DOCTOR WHO meets SHERLOCK).

Well, with Tolkien and Lewis, we haven't reached Life+70 yet anyway, which is the standard for most countries including the UK. Lewis died in 1963, so his works would enter the PD for Life+70 countries in 2034, and Tolkien's in 2044 as he died 10 years later.

Helix · Oct 20, 2014

There have been a few Sherlock Holmes + Jack the Ripper stories. Might be worth having a look at them to get a feel for what's been done before.

Also, check the timing. Holmes and Watson were adults when Jack the Ripper was on his murder spree in Whitechapel.

Wilde_at_heart · Oct 20, 2014

inkblots said:
Wow, I did not realize that... I was under the impression that the copyright still works as 70 years after the death of the author, is that wrong?

It's not automatic - i.e. Walt Disney. Also, if characters are Trademarked, that is a separate issue from copyright.

If you are going to do massive changes to the character anyway, then why not just come up with your own names for them?

Jamesaritchie · Oct 20, 2014

Everyone is doing Sherlock Holmes stories right now. Trademark can't prevent this. Trademark does not stop anyone from writing a Sherlock Holmes story, it simply prevents them from using the name as a business venture in a way that might make the pubic think the two businesses are connected.

There are so many Sherlock Holmes stories out there of every stripe that I can't keep up with them. I mean it, I know at least a dozen writer doing Holmes stories right now, and I've lost count of all the ones published in the last five years alone, and without the blessing of his estate.

It doesn't make much sense to write a Sherlock Holmes story that changes who and what Sherlock Holmes is, though. It's pretty pointless, and fans will not like it.

victoriakmartin · Oct 20, 2014

inkblots said:
Thank you for your advice! My story is about a teen Sherlock, Watson, Irene, and Mycroft so it would follow their basic personality traits if they were a bit younger (Watson a bit quicker to take risks, Mycroft a bit more arrogant) It follows them as they try to take on the mystery of Jack the Ripper with some elements of the classic Sherlock stories. I would hope that wouldn't be fan fiction, but I guess I'll figure it out along the way. Thank you!

That is 100% what fan fiction is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Still, it has been done before - which also means that the estate has let people use the characters in the past, or at least not caused too much fuss about it. I know Carol Nelson Douglas has written a whole series of books starting Irene Adler. I'm quite sure one of them also involves her and Sherlock dealing with Jack the Ripper.

It's definitely not a bad idea but it isn't all that original, which means you'll have to do it really well in order to capture people's interest.

Bloo · Oct 20, 2014

I have a friend that is a massive Sherlock Holmes geek and he refuses to acknowledge the existiance of BBC's SHERLOCK television show simply because it updates it.

The Sherlock Homes fan community takes their Holmes seriously. Some love experimental Sherlock Holmes (i.e. SHERLOCK or ELEMENTARY) others froth at the mouth at it (my friend just barely accepts Caleb Carr's The Italian Secretary book--and does so only because it's Carr.)

inkblots · Oct 20, 2014

Bloo said:
I have a friend that is a massive Sherlock Holmes geek and he refuses to acknowledge the existiance of BBC's SHERLOCK television show simply because it updates it.

The Sherlock Homes fan community takes their Holmes seriously. Some love experimental Sherlock Holmes (i.e. SHERLOCK or ELEMENTARY) others froth at the mouth at it (my friend just barely accepts Caleb Carr's The Italian Secretary book--and does so only because it's Carr.)

Thanks! I know how serious fandom can be and I'm scared to update if they don't like that, but I've put so much into the story so I guess I'll take a risk!

RightHoJeeves · Oct 20, 2014

I would advise against changing anything too much from the standard personalities, etc. People read Sherlock Holmes because they like everything about it. If you're wanting to change anything significant, then you may as well just make up your own detectives.

Lillith1991 · Oct 21, 2014

Bloo said:
I have a friend that is a massive Sherlock Holmes geek and he refuses to acknowledge the existiance of BBC's SHERLOCK television show simply because it updates it.

The Sherlock Homes fan community takes their Holmes seriously. Some love experimental Sherlock Holmes (i.e. SHERLOCK or ELEMENTARY) others froth at the mouth at it (my friend just barely accepts Caleb Carr's The Italian Secretary book--and does so only because it's Carr.)

Speaking as someone who owns all the original Sherlock Holmes works, I don't see why other fans froth about BBC Sherlock. Watson and Holmes are really actually true to character in the show, and the show's creators have a great concept. Elementary I refuse to watch, because of what they did to Watson. I actually like the idea of Watson as an asian woman, but she doesn't from what I gathered, actually act like how a female Watson would. Good idea, poor writing on the part of the show's creators.

Hating either show simply because it's an update? I find my fellow fans who hate them because of that to be extremely unreasonable. There's been how many movies and television shows updating the stories since TV was invented, and before that the radio broadcasts of it? Just because something is the lastest incarnation of that tradition doesn't make it crap.

Bloo · Oct 21, 2014

Lillith1991 said:
Speaking as someone who owns all the original Sherlock Holmes works, I don't see why other fans froth about BBC Sherlock. Watson and Holmes are really actually true to character in the show, and the show's creators have a great concept. Elementary I refuse to watch, because of what they did to Watson. I actually like the idea of Watson as an asian woman, but she doesn't from what I gathered, actually act like how a female Watson would. Good idea, poor writing on the part of the show's creators.

Hating either show simply because it's an update? I find my fellow fans who hate them because of that to be extremely unreasonable. There's been how many movies and television shows updating the stories since TV was invented, and before that the radio broadcasts of it? Just because something is the lastest incarnation of that tradition doesn't make it crap.

I don't get it either. I've been reading Sherlock stories since I was...10, 11 years old but he refuses to watch or read anything that portrays Sherlock in anything but a Victorian setting. I sit here and go "Bill, they are very faithful to the source material" his response, "not if they set it in modern times"

Interestingly, his wife, who could give two figs about Holmes, IS interested based on her love of Steven Moffat's Dr Who stories.

jaksen · Oct 21, 2014

Doesn't Laurie King have an entire Sherlock Holmes series?

Perhaps she received permission, but she's on book #10, at least.

I've also seen other re-interpretations of Sherlock, in novel and short story format. (And not as fan fiction, which I don't read.)

Viridian · Oct 21, 2014

jaksen said:
Doesn't Laurie King have an entire Sherlock Holmes series?

Perhaps she received permission, but she's on book #10, at least.

I've also seen other re-interpretations of Sherlock, in novel and short story format. (And not as fan fiction, which I don't read.)

I'm not sure I follow you. How can something be a reinterpretation but not fanfiction? If I wrote a reinterpretation of Harry Potter as a boy who imagines he's a wizard to escape the drudgery of everyday life, that would be fanfiction.

The only reinterpretation I wouldn't call fanfiction is satire.

Cyia · Oct 21, 2014

Book in public domain = possibly viable retelling

Book NOT in public domain = fanfiction

With Sherlock, however, you've got the added protective layer of trademark. So while you might be able to use the detective, you can't use his hat, coat or pipe, which are trademarked.

williemeikle · Oct 21, 2014

I've got a fair bit of Holmes fiction in print ( a collection, a novella and several short stories in anthologies, with four more novellas still to come ) - there's most definitely a market for it. But I can tell you, you tamper with the basics at your peril, as fans will not be slow in coming forward to tell you where they think you got it wrong.

For example, I have Holmes and Watson investigating supernatural and science fictional cases, and I get all sorts of negative reaction from purists ( alongside positive reaction from those like me who are all for the idea. )

Viridian · Oct 21, 2014

Cyia said:
Book in public domain = possibly viable retelling

Book NOT in public domain = fanfiction

I, and a lot of people, would define fanfiction as "using another person's characters and/or setting." The process of retelling Sherlock is the same process as retelling Harry Potter; you're a fan in an existing fan base, you pay strict attention to the characterization, settings, themes, and style of the original work, you decide what to change (if anything), you take into consideration what has already been done by other fans, ect.

Meanwhile, the process of retelling Sherlock Holmes is completely different than creating a completely new original work. One is working with an already-existing fan base and mythos that do not belong to you. One is creating something entirely new.

Whether you can make money off it or not is just semantics.

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