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YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

Roger J Carlson

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Ted,

For some reason, you seem unable to understand what Absolute Write is and what its moderators do.

Basically, AW is a meeting place for people to exchange information. Its moderators are here to make sure the discussion stays orderly. That's it. Its not a publisher or an agency or anything else. Absolute Write itself doesn't have an opinion about anything. Opinions expressed here (whether moderators or not) are strictly those of the individual members.

Jenna's (NOT Jenny!) comments are based on her knowledge of the publishing business as a successful author of non-fiction books. Victoria's opinions are based on her knowledge of the publishing business as a successful author of fiction. Me? I'm not published by anybody. Nevertheless, I have as much right to my opinion as anybody else.

Speaking for myself, why exactly should I give the benefit of the doubt to a new business? I don't care about businesses. I care about myself and other writers. If a new business uses business practices that someone with more experience than I thinks are not in the best interest of writers, I want to know about it. If these opinions are wrong, the success of the business venture will be its own justification. No amount of huffing and puffing on the venture's part will do any good.

You mentioned the word "partisan" several times. I have to wonder what this means. Partisan usually means that there are two or more parties in conflict. With whom are you in conflict? You can't be in conflict with Absolute Write because AW doesn't do what you do. However, since Absolute Write is a site for writers, and you claim it is partisan, I can only assume that you are in conflict with writers. This is not a very good claim for you to make.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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YouWriteOn seems to have helped a few of its members to find literary agents and to polish their work for publication. That's great, and I don't think anyone would say otherwise.

I think what most people here feel uneasy about is the vanity publishing angle. If the books that are vanity-published by YouWriteOn are good enough to get the kind of notice described in the post above, quite possibly they were good enough to score a real publishing deal. Sidetracking talented authors into paid publishing isn't doing them any favors.

- Victoria

repeated for the truth it says.

no one can complain about a good critique site but one that runs a POD/vanity press on the side sends up red flags in my world.
 

YouWriteOn

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Hi All

Thanks for the feedback, we've addressed all we have to say above so we won't go any further on that. We'd just address that YouWriteOn.com is essentially a critique site with additional services for those who decide to use them if they wish. This is mainly what we do. To clarify this a little for you.
  • An Arts Council funded site
  • Each month the Top Five Opening Chapters in our peer review charts receive a free critique from editors for leading agents and publishers including Orion, Curtis Brown and Bloomsbury, who collectively represent authors like Rowling, Rankin, etc
  • The Random House House Group, publisher of writers such as John Grisham, read and comment on the YouWriteOn Top Ten each month between April and September 2008
  • We have just started, after over 2 years, to offer a publishing service with Legend Press, shortlisted for the UK Young Publisher of the Year, and whose story Salt & Honey by Candi Miller featured as one of the Top Ten books to talk about on World Book Day. A very good read I understand. As on Absolute Write, members make up their own informed minds about whether POD is for them
The YouWriteOn site premise is straightforward and devised by professional authors: you upload opening chapers or short stories and review and rate another member's story. Each review you complete earns you one back, and after five reviews you enter the YouWriteOn Top Ten charts. Successes for our first inaugural 'Book of the Year Awards' include Caligula by Doug Jackson, which will be published in July 2008 in a six-figure deal with Random House; Johnny Mackintosh and the Spirit of London by Keith Mansfield which achieved a 3 book deal with Quercus, publisher of books such as The Tenderness of Wolves; and Bufflehead Sisters by Patricia J. DeLois, published by us through POD and named book of the year in her home state of Maine, currently finalising a 2 book deal with a leading publisher.

We've pretty much addressed our thoughts in our previous post, apart from to say you have some pretty amusing thoughts, Roger! We call it as we see it, but that's essentially our record thus far.

Ted
 
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Roger J Carlson

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We've pretty much addressed our thoughts in the previous post, apart from to say you have some pretty amusing thoughts, Roger! We call it as we see it, but that's essentially our record thus far.

Ted
I'm glad you're amused. I've often found expressions of amusement at other people's viewpoints a constructive tool for advancing honest dialog.
 

Momento Mori

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YouWriteOn:
We have just started, after over 2 years, to offer a publishing service with Legend Press, shortlisted for the UK Young Publisher of the Year

I'd like to ask what kind of distribution is offered by the publishing service that you're offering with Legend Press. I'd also like to ask precisely how many writers have managed to attain commercial publishing contracts as a result of using YWO since you began operating.


MM
 

victoriastrauss

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Thanks, Sheryl, for quoting my post.

At the risk of repeating myself--it's great that YouWriteOn has helped writers to find literary agents and to improve their manuscripts by working with editors and agents. From the comments that site users have made in this thread, the writing and critique community is positive and helpful for many. This is great! No one is trying to argue otherwise.

Where the problems arise, for me, are in YouWriteOn's advocacy of print-on-demand vanity publishing as a viable route for authors to gain success and recognition. Patricia DeLois's success with Bufflehead Sisters is wonderful--but it's very unusual. Most books published in this way are simply invisible. They sell few copies, and get little recognition beyond the pocket markets surrounding the author. If a writer is ready for commercial publication, it doesn't help them to be shunted into this byway.

As for Legend Press, the announcement in Ted's post and on the YouWriteOn website certainly makes it sound as if there's some sort of partnership between YouWriteOn and this independent publisher--but I can't help wondering whether YouWriteOn isn't simply contracting with Legend to use its text setting and layout service, described on this page of Legend's website.

In criticizing the way that this thread has been moderated, Ted, you neglect to mention that no one's post has been censored or deleted, and that writers with opposing points of view have been--and still are--free to have their say. There are a number of posts in the thread from writers who support YouWriteOn (and I'm sure there will soon be more). Why, if I don't censor the views of others, should I censor my own--just because it would be nicer for you? This is a discussion board--the whole point is for people to express as many points of view as possible, so that other people can make up their own minds.

You may be right that my responses to your Amazon Boycott announcement have been antagonistic (I will let others judge the nature of your responses to me). I'll admit that the inaccuracies in your announcement, as well as your relentlessly self-promotional tone, rub me the wrong way. I'll gladly withdraw from that thread, and let others carry on the discussion there.

- Victoria
 

YouWriteOn

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Hello Victoria. Thank you for your comments. It's good to see an acknowledgement of the value that members haven't found through the YouWriteOn's literary professionals, which their own hard work deserves. Similarly, I respect your right to voice your opinions, and as I've said elsewhere I don't doubt that you and Roger et all provide a valuable service, and that members value Absolute Write. We've never said, for example, that POD offers a fast route to publishing success, it's something for individual values to consider realistically whether it is worthwhile for them, and it's useful for them to get feedback to help in the process. Most writers sell the average amounts you've indicated elsewhere, it is still their choice to use POD though. We do know there are many talented writers on YouWriteOn who have had very highly rated reviews from members but haven't, like Patricia initially, found representation. We also know of members who have used POD to get nominated for awards, and to get their books in local bookstores here. Equally there are the very many writers who will sell only moderate amounts. It's an option, to be considered like all options. And like with other site accomplishments we may achieve something, or not, we'll see, check back in a year or so. We are at heart though, a critique site.

I disagree with you also on the Amazon issue, I think there is more at stake than you suggest, particularly as the voices against Amazon include so many writers organisations, including The American Society of Journalists and Authors and The US Authors Guild. Your last post in the thread you mention, however, did raise an additional interesting avenue to explore. And as you say it is up to others to make their minds up, just like it is on the value of critique sites, and the value of POD.

If you consider us self-promoting, you have to consider the kind of response your going to get from a site when there is a general tone of negativity applied to it from its very inception, before it has had an opportunity to develop. A site is going to definitely point at what it has achieved on behalf of itself and its writers. The examples of our writers successes we quote above are to also indicate to you that, as mentioned, that it is important to give ventures a fair chance. We will always promote our writers, and if we see a general tone which is not about debate but, in our humble opinion, about knocking-down, then we will similarly voice a critical opinion. Which brings me onto Roger, oh yes, don't think we'd forgotten you, how could we!

I'm glad you're amused. I've often found expressions of amusement at other people's viewpoints a constructive tool for advancing honest dialog.

I'm presuming you've now flicked back in your dictionary from looking up 'partisan' to looking up the meaning of irony. Come on, Roger, you can’t expect not to be found amusing when you go into a riff about the meaning of partisan to conclude about us, 'I can only assume that you are in conflict with writers'. I was beginning to think you were auditioning for a Seinfeld spin-off, or ad-libbing a scene from Curb your Enthusiasm. The point is made here generally that if you make adverse comments, you can sometimes expect them back. And you can expect people to list their achievements if you’ve suggested from the start there will be none. We are of course, also joshing with you.
 
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Roger J Carlson

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You make yourself look more professional with every post.*

*irony: The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
 

NickP

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You make yourself look more professional with every post.*

*irony: The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

I think what Mr Carlson must mean is, "sorry we were all so suspicious. What a great site you've got there Ted!"

Otherwise he just makes himself look ruder with every post.
 

Stacia Kane

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A site is going to definitely point at what it has achieved on behalf of itself and its writers. The examples of our writers successes we quote above are to also indicate to you that, as mentioned, that it is important to give ventures a fair chance.

But, is there any real proof that your members who became successful only did so because of the site? Isn't it likely they would have succeeded anyway? I think that's the issue here, at least for me.
 

YouWriteOn

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I think what Mr Carlson must mean is, "sorry we were all so suspicious. What a great site you've got there Ted!"

Otherwise he just makes himself look ruder with every post.

I'm sure we'll get something further out of him once he's finished reading his dictionary!
 
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YouWriteOn

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But, is there any real proof that your members who became successful only did so because of the site? Isn't it likely they would have succeeded anyway? I think that's the issue here, at least for me.

Hi DecemberQuinn, it's a fair question. Writer's success is ultimately down to their own hard work, but the site's successful writers have also provided feedback that fellow peer reviews and critiques from the site's literary professionals have really helped them in this process. For example, Doug Jackson, who achieved a six figure deal with Random House provided the following feedback. He's a very nice writer, and he put all his writing hours in on the train back from Edinburgh after work each day.


" The feedback, positive and negative, from members helped me immensely. The positive gave me confidence in my ability as a writer and encouraged me to keep going. The negative showed me how to use constructive criticism to improve what I'd written and strengthened my resolve to make it work.

The professional critique I received from Sara O'Keeffe at Orion (one of YouWriteOn's professional reviewers) gave me the breakthrough I needed, and Sara herself was extremely helpful and encouraging. It was her interest in my writing that convinced Mark Stanton, my agent to sign me up and things happened incredibly quickly after that.

I hope my success in finding a publisher will encourage everyone at Youwriteon to keep working towards their dream. There are much better writers than me on the site and I'm certain I won't be the last success you have to report. "


Generally we've found cumulative member reviews help all writers to see what's good in their writing and what needs development, and the professional critiques help further. Doug's novel is an example of how critique sites in general can work well, the editor at Orion suggested a complete shift in narrative direction from her experience of his genre of historical fiction. This was no doubt difficult to do for Doug, as he'd completed his novel, but he took all the advice on board to make a success of his story. It's a great book, it's called Caligula for those that wish to take a look.
 
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YouWriteOn

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For balance, I'd also add the following consideration about reviews that one of our professional authors made, like everything, review sites have their pros and cons, it can be a learning curve getting used to the critique process to develop work.

Criticism has the potential to be both inspiring and fatal .. I'd suggest some rules of thumb. Spend a few days mulling on any criticism before drawing conclusions. If a criticism strikes a chord with you, act on it. If it doesn't, but if several critics have touched on the same thing, consider very carefully whether to act on it. If a criticism really doesn't strike a chord, and particularly if no one else has picked up on it, probably ignore it. Lastly, you may find critics evenly divided on an issue, as many pro as con. These are the trickiest to navigate: go with what your instincts tell you.
 
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YouWriteOn

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Hmmm. We do have a general rule of respect your fellow writer as long as they respect you, especially if you give them more than one opportunity to do so, we could see this respect wasn't really coming from Roger. It is a shame, however, that he appears to have come up short-changed in the insult record you are keeping. How many insults is it before you're out? (Not too many I hope!) Anyway, it's been interesting as always, and we hold no bad feeling personally, it's gone 11 here so we'll wish you all a good night.
 
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Momento Mori

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YouWriteOn, I think the rush of posts meant that you missed my questions earlier up the page. I've set them out again below.

I'd like to ask what kind of distribution is offered by the publishing service that you're offering with Legend Press. I'd also like to ask precisely how many writers have managed to attain commercial publishing contracts as a result of using YWO since you began operating.

For the record, I know a couple of people who've used YWO and found it helpful, I equally know some people who were disappointed by their experience and preferred finding RL writing critique groups.

MM
 

mscelina

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*sigh*

YWO, antagonizing the good people who moderate at AW and spend their time and effort trying to help writers who are just getting started in the business is not a good way to push your agenda through here. Just sayin'...
 

victoriastrauss

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Hmmm. We do have a general rule of respect your fellow writer as long as they respect you, especially if you give them more than one opportunity to do so, we could see this respect wasn't really coming from Roger. It is a shame, however, that he appears to have come up short-changed in the insult record you are keeping.

I'll agree not to keep records if you'll agree to quit making it personal.

- Victoria
 

herdon

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This thread is showing all the makings of needing to be locked for a few days imo
 

Momento Mori

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Havlen, I hope not because I'd really like to get an answer to my questions.

MM
 

herdon

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When things start getting personal, things start approaching that line. Hopefully, we can all go back to being civil to each other, but if the personal remarks persist the thread should probably get locked for a couple of days.
 

Momento Mori

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Havlen:
When things start getting personal, things start approaching that line. Hopefully, we can all go back to being civil to each other, but if the personal remarks persist the thread should probably get locked for a couple of days.

I understand that and it's a shame that things got a bit heated. However, now that everyone's had a chance to sleep on it, I hope that people will have calmed down and we can move on.

Hopefully YWO won't have any issue with answering my questions as they're pretty standard and he seems happy to engage with people.

MM