How detail oriented are you in the first draft?

Madame de Plume

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This is a question for all you seasoned historical writers. (Or at least, more seasoned than I am).

I am currently in the midst of my first serious attempt at a historical novel and I took part of my first draft to a critique group where a "published" author (who doesn't write in the historic genre) ripped me to shreds for not having more historical details in the chapters I gave them. I tried to explain that this was the first draft and that I was simply trying to get the core of the story out before going back in subsequent drafts and adding in more details to flesh out the scenes and setting.

At this point, I'm just trying not to get bogged down in research on types of carriages or articles of clothing in 19th century France.

My question for you is, do you tend to do the same, or do you incorporate those details in from the get go. And if you do, do you find it makes easier or more difficult. I realize we all go about this differently, but I'm just curious.

Thanks. :)
 
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mayqueen

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Details are just that -- details. They are extremely important to get right, but shouldn't be all that someone notices. I started out by being super-detailed, but I found that bogged down my narrative and made my writing feel forced if I tried to include every little bit of research into a first draft. It was more "I think this is how historical novelists write" type of detail than organic, natural detail. And I tended to do it as I went, rather than before or after.

Now, I personally like to have all my details researched first so that I can create a world that feels believable, from the type of cloth in a garment to how a house would smell, without overloading the reader with "Look, I did my research!" level of detail. I find I can't get inside a character's head without knowing all of those details. Is it made or break if I don't know how, say, Norse settlers in tenth century Ireland wore their hair? Probably not, but if I can understand how or why people would prefer a woman's hair to be covered or a man to be clean-shaven (or not), I can understand more about the bigger picture social system. But that's just how I write and think.

So I think your approach is fine and that the person who critiqued probably expects something different from a finished, polished historical novel. There's no right way to do this.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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I'm just starting mine, but I'm not writing much until I get a good saturation on research. The thing is, if you don't research the small stuff, it can throw off the story. So, for instance, research about Red Cross groups in WWI solved a problem about where to put a boarding house an important character will be living in.

But that isn't to say that your first draft needs every detail you'll eventually put in the finished book.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

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I'm with you. My first drafts are mostly dialogue, with a smattering of stage direction and a bit of description if it happens to pop into my mind. Mainly, because my first draft is to establish pacing, continuity, and to uncover plot holes.

I don't really apply the style or historic details until a draft or two later. Then I show it to my betas, some of whom are frustrated since I'm teasing them with plot questions, but I want to get their first impressions of the story after I've applied the polish.
 
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gothicangel

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Enough to evoke the period (especially if I were to show it to anyone.) Currently trying to get my head around the city-plan of Jerusalem in 132 CE.

I don't think the research ends. I'm researching/writing my new WIP, and was researching the layout of a Roman military hospital, and realized I have the names of medical roles in the previous book wrong. :flag:
 

etherme

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I never share a 1st draft with anyone; it's still in too fragile of a state. A 1st draft IS usually a shambling, run on mess--at least for me. Getting a critique after a 2nd or 3rd draft might work better in some cases. Just my 2 cents.
 

Maxx

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This is a question for all you seasoned historical writers. (Or at least, more seasoned than I am).

I am currently in the midst of my first serious attempt at a historical novel and I took part of my first draft to a critique group where a "published" author (who doesn't write in the historic genre) ripped me to shreds for not having more historical details in the chapters I gave them. I tried to explain that this was the first draft and that I was simply trying to get the core of the story out before going back in subsequent drafts and adding in more details to flesh out the scenes and setting.

At this point, I'm just trying not to get bogged down in research on types of carriages or articles of clothing in 19th century France.

My question for you is, do you tend to do the same, or do you incorporate those details in from the get go. And if you do, do you find it makes easier or more difficult. I realize we all go about this differently, but I'm just curious.

Thanks. :)

I think my first draft has about all the detail there will ever be. Some of it might have to go. I have to have the details before I write because I essentially see what is happening and then have to write it down. If there are no details then I don't see anything and I can't write anything much.
On the other hand, since I'm writing about Europe around 1800, I have plenty of accounts, letters, novels, notebooks and journals written at the time and I use roughly the level of detail that such accounts use -- which isn't all that much in explicit terms except when people are being mocked for their clothes or their vehicles or their perfumes.
 

snafu1056

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I need to be able to immerse myself in the world of the story, so yeah I generally work the details out beforehand. I hate the feeling of writing in a blank void. I need to fill in as many of the blanks as possible. And sometimes even a minor detail can change things and set you down a story path you might never have considered.
 

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I personally like to have all my details researched first so that I can create a world that feels believable [...] I find I can't get inside a character's head without knowing all of those details.

This. First and foremost, I have to know the world my character inhabits before my character can come alive. Not to say all that has to go into the story in the first draft, but I have to know a decent amount of it myself.

The thing is, if you don't research the small stuff, it can throw off the story.

Exactly. A small detail could be the pebble that starts the ripples in the pond. You never know how wide an impact that seemingly insignificant detail will have on the plot. When you come back to research it and find out it needs changing, you may find yourself needing to make bigger changes than just the type of lace trimming the heroine's ball gown.

I don't think the research ends.

Amen. It starts with the first seed of the idea, and never stops until you've called the final draft done.

I never share a 1st draft with anyone; it's still in too fragile of a state.

This is also worth considering. If it's not your best polished effort, you can't really be surprised when it gets 'ripped' by someone expecting just that. You need to manage expectations - both your betas', and your own. If you're looking for validation and encouragement (which everyone needs in first draft stage), a crit partner may be a better idea.
 

Madame de Plume

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Thank you all so much for your responses. I've always been naturally curious and I love talking to other writers about their process. We all work so differently and I love that! :D

I started out by being super-detailed, but I found that bogged down my narrative and made my writing feel forced if I tried to include every little bit of research into a first draft. It was more "I think this is how historical novelists write" type of detail than organic, natural detail. And I tended to do it as I went, rather than before or after.

I feel very similar. Instead of it being organic it was feeling a bit forced, which is why I decided to omit a lot of the historical detail from my first draft. And tending to it as I went along was really slowing me down.

I'm with you. My first drafts are mostly dialogue, with a smattering of stage direction and a bit of description if it happens to pop into my mind. Mainly, because my first draft is to establish pacing, continuity, and to uncover plot holes.

I don't really apply the style or historic details until a draft or two later. Then I show it to my betas, some of whom are frustrated since I'm teasing them with plot questions, but I want to get their first impressions of the story after I've applied the polish.

Nikweikel I am doing something along those lines right now. I really just want to get the main plot down for pacing in my first draft.

I'm just starting mine, but I'm not writing much until I get a good saturation on research. The thing is, if you don't research the small stuff, it can throw off the story. So, for instance, research about Red Cross groups in WWI solved a problem about where to put a boarding house an important character will be living in.

But that isn't to say that your first draft needs every detail you'll eventually put in the finished book.

Yes, I have already done a good bit of research. My main plot actually deals with historic events so I had to already have some knowledge going into the first draft. Good luck on your WWI novel!

I never share a 1st draft with anyone; it's still in too fragile of a state. A 1st draft IS usually a shambling, run on mess--at least for me. Getting a critique after a 2nd or 3rd draft might work better in some cases. Just my 2 cents.

This is true, and normally I don't share my work so early on, but I had a general plot question that I wanted opinions on and the critique went from general to uber specific which got me wondering about this question in the first place. ;)

I need to be able to immerse myself in the world of the story, so yeah I generally work the details out beforehand. I hate the feeling of writing in a blank void. I need to fill in as many of the blanks as possible. And sometimes even a minor detail can change things and set you down a story path you might never have considered.

That is very true about minor details changing things and has already happened to me several times!

This is also worth considering. If it's not your best polished effort, you can't really be surprised when it gets 'ripped' by someone expecting just that. You need to manage expectations - both your betas', and your own. If you're looking for validation and encouragement (which everyone needs in first draft stage), a crit partner may be a better idea.

I don't mind harsh critiques and I don't show my work to people that I know will only blow smoke up my ass so to speak. I have a really wonderful crit partner who is incredibly honest (sometimes brutally so) and has made me kill more than one of my darlings. I wasn't even put off by the author "ripping" my work to shreds. It more got me thinking about the process of writing a historical novel than anything else and that's what led me to ask the question in the first place. ;)

I think my first draft has about all the detail there will ever be. Some of it might have to go. I have to have the details before I write because I essentially see what is happening and then have to write it down. If there are no details then I don't see anything and I can't write anything much.
On the other hand, since I'm writing about Europe around 1800, I have plenty of accounts, letters, novels, notebooks and journals written at the time and I use roughly the level of detail that such accounts use -- which isn't all that much in explicit terms except when people are being mocked for their clothes or their vehicles or their perfumes.

So you are incredibly detail oriented from the get go! My novel is also set in 1800's Europe. More specifically, early 19th century France. :)

Enough to evoke the period (especially if I were to show it to anyone.) Currently trying to get my head around the city-plan of Jerusalem in 132 CE.

I don't think the research ends. I'm researching/writing my new WIP, and was researching the layout of a Roman military hospital, and realized I have the names of medical roles in the previous book wrong. :flag:

gothicangel that is one of my greatest fears! To miss something glaringly incorrect! I love Roman era fiction. Good luck with the novel!
 

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My first drafts tend to look pretty much like later drafts as far as the level of description.

I think, like in all other genres, you have to calibrate the level of detail to the audience. With historical fiction, you need a tad more detail because the audience expects some period detail and some of them might not be familiar with you era.

There's a huge temptation to drop in a certain fact or description because it's super cool (to you). I try very hard to synthesize my research and then forget it. I want to see the world I'm in and inhabit it--which requires a certain level of pre-writing research--or it'll come out as forced. If I'm not sure about a particular detail, I can fill it in later. But the general milieu, the basics of buildings and furnishings and clothing? I have to know those so that they are there at my fingertips when I need them but don't get me so excited that I go on and on about them.
 

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For me I want to see the scene and the general qualities of the dress would be part of that. Maybe not the exact name but the shape and weight of the fabric is going to effect how people move and stand.
 

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There's a huge temptation to drop in a certain fact or description because it's super cool (to you). I try very hard to synthesize my research and then forget it. I want to see the world I'm in and inhabit it--which requires a certain level of pre-writing research--or it'll come out as forced. If I'm not sure about a particular detail, I can fill it in later. But the general milieu, the basics of buildings and furnishings and clothing? I have to know those so that they are there at my fingertips when I need them but don't get me so excited that I go on and on about them.

This.

You need to know a lot more than you put into the book, not just about the physical milieu but the mental milieu as well. You don't necessarily write about these, but they affect the plot, the characters, everything about your book. You can go back later and stick in the small details, like the name of the street they were walking down, but you need to know ahead of time if that street is in a town of a few hundred people or a few hundred thousand. You need to know if it is normal or an oddity that your hero can read and write. And so on.
 

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I do general research first, before I write anything. For the western I wrote, I read several non-fiction books on the time period and read several western novels to get a feel for it. So when I finally wrote the first draft, a lot of the setting details came automatically. In later drafts I would go into more detail, the steam engine my character arrived in became a black Baldwin locomotive. His 6-gun became an 1873 Colt single-action Army revolver and the characters discussed his former 1863 Colt Navy revolver which he retired when the SAA came out. So the details are always there, I just expound upon them
 
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Maxx

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So you are incredibly detail oriented from the get go! My novel is also set in 1800's Europe. More specifically, early 19th century France. :)

I try to match my detail level to the detail level you see in novels from the time. Jane Austen mentions a few details occasionally (for example carriages and their various statuses), but (oddly enough) when you can check them they can be off by as much as two decades (for example the movements of the militia in Pride and Prejudice are those of 1792 not the supposed time of the novel which is usually thought to be 1811, but then the first "Epistulary" version of P&P might have been written in around 1793-5, so the detail is all the more telling) -- so if you look at details that people were interested in at the time, you get a guide to your level of detail.
Of course for early 19th century France there are similar narratives. I've only read Benjamin Constant and maybe Stendal or Madame de Stael would be a better choice for detail levels in France.
 

ishtar'sgate

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At this point, I'm just trying not to get bogged down in research on types of carriages or articles of clothing in 19th century France.

My question for you is, do you tend to do the same, or do you incorporate those details in from the get go. And if you do, do you find it makes easier or more difficult. I realize we all go about this differently, but I'm just curious.

Thanks. :)

I research heavily before I begin writing. I want to see my surroundings clearly so I'll know how to move my characters through their setting. I want to know the precise plans for pertinent cities, streets, buildings, etc. I want to have a handle on a normal day in the life of each character, be they slaves or kings. These are not details that can be plugged in later, they are an organic part of the novel. That doesn't mean that all those details will be on the page but they'll be in my head, making it much easier for my characters and my story to be credible. At least I hope so.:)
 

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Research-wise, I start out with "big picture" stuff. What was it LIKE to live in this time and place? In my academic career I study social history and popular culture, which is pretty much exactly what you need for historical fiction, so I doubly start with that. What were the general cultural trends and sentiments? What was the general attitude towards x? (that might not dictate my characters' attitudes, but if so it's important to know that). What was the feel? What would it have been like growing up in the decade (s) before? What would have shaped their childhoods? What aspects of popular culture would interest them? I feel it's really important to know all this before getting in too deep because it shapes your characters. They're going to end up different people who act differently if they were born in 1800 versus 1905 versus 1950, even if they have the same core qualities.

I'm very visual so I also go crazy finding pictures. Of course I look for clothing and interiors and all that, but I also try and find pictures of any kind of object they interact with. So I know that in 1927 you fold down the sides of a toaster to stick the bread in rather than stick it in the top. I know you focus your snapshot camera by looking down into the waist-level viewfinder rather than hold it up to your eye. I feel these kinds of things are crucial to making a historical period seem real rather than window-dressing. While they're having a conversation over breakfast someone folds down the side of the toaster and flips over the toast. Hardly anyone's even going to notice, but it's authentic. Though of course it's a different medium, Mad Men is something of an icon for me in this regard-- the props people go as far as getting period milk cartons. To me THAT is how you make a historical setting real.

I also look for personal accounts--diaries, letters, memoirs. This is most often where you find little telling details about daily life, not to mention how people actually talked (another big one for me-- if you do it right it's barely even noticeable). I love finding anecdotes I can modify.

I like experiencing as much of the popular culture as I can too. Since I'm early twentieth century it's really easy to me to get my hands on the music, films, magazines, books, and similar stuff that my characters would have interacted with. I like thinking about my character's opinions on a certain song or movie or whatever. Which ones did they like? Which ones did they hate? What trends did they like and which did they think were dumb? All this really helps me both in getting to know my characters and in cementing them in their time period.

In the end there aren't that many actual historical details in my novel-- all the research has been worked in. I feel my characters and their story aren't defined by their time period, but they are inextricably entwined with it. To me that's how you get great historical fiction.

ETA: Haha, oops, sorry, didn't even answer the original question! If I know I'm setting something in a certain period I immediately start doing all the stuff I said above, but I start writing to get a first draft of the story and characters down anyway. I take about 10,000 drafts to get to a final one, so the first is really just pegging down the idea. As time goes on and I learn about the story more all the historical stuff just melds with the other aspects of story and character development. Also writing alwayyyys brings up things you didn't even think to research (wait-- does it make sense for him to take a pen out of his pocket? did they have ballpoint fens or it would have to be fountain? the kind you dip or the kind with ink in it? would you keep a potential ink spill in the jacket of your nice coat? make I just should make it a pencil...)

At least that's what I did for the current fellow. The next one I've known I want to write for two years already but have on hold (except for bits and pieces) till this one is done; in the meantime I've been doing a lot of the research stuff so I'll already have a pretty good idea of the world and how it shapes my character before I start writing. So that's cool.
 
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Madame de Plume

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I have to know those so that they are there at my fingertips when I need them but don't get me so excited that I go on and on about them.

That's such a great balance. Good advice.

For me I want to see the scene and the general qualities of the dress would be part of that. Maybe not the exact name but the shape and weight of the fabric is going to effect how people move and stand.

I agree. I'm the same way when I read historical fiction and I want those details in my novel.

This.

You need to know a lot more than you put into the book, not just about the physical milieu but the mental milieu as well. You don't necessarily write about these, but they affect the plot, the characters, everything about your book. You can go back later and stick in the small details, like the name of the street they were walking down, but you need to know ahead of time if that street is in a town of a few hundred people or a few hundred thousand. You need to know if it is normal or an oddity that your hero can read and write. And so on.

I do general research first, before I write anything. For the western I wrote, I read several non-fiction books on the time period and read several western novels to get a feel for it. So when I finally wrote the first draft, a lot of the setting details came automatically. In later drafts I would go into more detail, the steam engine my character arrived in became a black Baldwin locomotive. His 6-gun became an 1873 Colt single-action Army revolver and the characters discussed his former 1863 Colt Navy revolver which he retired when the SAA came out. So the details are always there, I just expound upon them

I'm just a newb with writing historical fiction (but I love reading it). My process so far has been much like Shadow Ferrets.

I agree. A certain amount of knowledge is required from the beginning and I've already read several biographies and histories prior to starting my first draft. I've really enjoyed researching the time period and I still have a long list of books I need from the library.
 

Madame de Plume

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Of course for early 19th century France there are similar narratives. I've only read Benjamin Constant and maybe Stendal or Madame de Stael would be a better choice for detail levels in France.

Thank you so much for the suggestions! Most of the French novels I've read were written and take place in the mid nineteenth century. I will have to give these authors a try. :)



That doesn't mean that all those details will be on the page but they'll be in my head, making it much easier for my characters and my story to be credible. At least I hope so.:)

Half of the stuff I've researched will probably never make it into my novel! But it has helped me develop my characters and plot immensely. :)
 

Madame de Plume

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I'm very visual so I also go crazy finding pictures. Of course I look for clothing and interiors and all that, but I also try and find pictures of any kind of object they interact with. So I know that in 1927 you fold down the sides of a toaster to stick the bread in rather than stick it in the top. I know you focus your snapshot camera by looking down into the waist-level viewfinder rather than hold it up to your eye. I feel these kinds of things are crucial to making a historical period seem real rather than window-dressing. While they're having a conversation over breakfast someone folds down the side of the toaster and flips over the toast. Hardly anyone's even going to notice, but it's authentic. Though of course it's a different medium, Mad Men is something of an icon for me in this regard-- the props people go as far as getting period milk cartons. To me THAT is how you make a historical setting real.

I have been doing this like crazy. The internet has been amazing for pictures of period dresses, hats, military uniforms, undergarments, etc. I've actually stumbled across a few really informative boards on pinterest dedicated to early 19th century fashion.

In the end there aren't that many actual historical details in my novel-- all the research has been worked in. I feel my characters and their story aren't defined by their time period, but they are inextricably entwined with it. To me that's how you get great historical fiction.

This. So much. This is my hope for my finished product!

ETA: Haha, oops, sorry, didn't even answer the original question! If I know I'm setting something in a certain period I immediately start doing all the stuff I said above, but I start writing to get a first draft of the story and characters down anyway. I take about 10,000 drafts to get to a final one, so the first is really just pegging down the idea. As time goes on and I learn about the story more all the historical stuff just melds with the other aspects of story and character development. Also writing alwayyyys brings up things you didn't even think to research (wait-- does it make sense for him to take a pen out of his pocket? did they have ballpoint fens or it would have to be fountain? the kind you dip or the kind with ink in it? would you keep a potential ink spill in the jacket of your nice coat? make I just should make it a pencil...)

At least that's what I did for the current fellow. The next one I've known I want to write for two years already but have on hold (except for bits and pieces) till this one is done; in the meantime I've been doing a lot of the research stuff so I'll already have a pretty good idea of the world and how it shapes my character before I start writing. So that's cool.

Yes, I feel like I'm on the first of multiple, multiple, multiple drafts, and instead of peeling an onion, I feel like I'm building one. Adding layers of details with each draft as I go along. Thank you so much for sharing!
 

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Its frustrating because whenever you think youre done, another detail pops up. And as always with research, you usually find the best stuff when youre not even looking for it. When you are looking for it you can't find jack.
 

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Its frustrating because whenever you think youre done, another detail pops up. And as always with research, you usually find the best stuff when youre not even looking for it. When you are looking for it you can't find jack.

Sooner or later, you get to a level of detail where every new detail is just another thing nobody will ever believe.

My current favorite unbelievable (but quite real) event is that the young Ney was shot in the arm in about 1795 and the arm became infected and a surgeon wanted to go in and drain the whole thing. Ney refused until all of the local army officers and political representatives and citizens danced a wild dance around his bed. By the time that was all over everyone (including Ney and the Surgeon) was drunk enough to risk the painful draining of Ney's arm.

Can I put that in the first draft? Or any draft? Probably not.
 

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I didn't do any serious research about the time period I was writing about until after I'd finished the first draft. I think the only thing I really focused on is trying not to use dialogue that sounded too modern and/or anachronistic for my characters to use, otherwise I just tried to focus on the writing.

It seems like this author should have understood that you were trying not to bog yourself down with research in your draft when she looked at your work.