Indicating someone's race...

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Chrissy

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That's just colorblindness, which is also a cop-out.
No it's not colorblindness and it's not a cop out. I SEE YOU.
I identify as each and every one of the quoted identities in that post, and yes, understanding and recognizing those multiple identities and what they mean is important to me.
I'm sure it is important to you, and I respect that.

We all have things that are important to us. We all have things about us, not just race or culture, but religion, parents, beliefs, traditions--all sorts of things that define us.

It doesn't mean that those things have to be important to everyone else. What ultimately matters is that we treat each other as human beings.

I mean seriously, if I am your friend, and I describe you to my mom as Native American, are you really going to be put out that I didn't include all the other things?
 
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kuwisdelu

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We all have things that are important to us. We all have things about us, not just race or culture, but religion, parents, beliefs, traditions--all sorts of things that "define" us.

It doesn't mean that those things have to be important to everyone else. What ultimately matters is that we treat each other as human beings.

I mean seriously, if I am your friend, and I describe you to my mom as Native American, are you really going to be put out that I didn't include all the other things?

No, but I think you missed the point.

You could describe me as any of those. That's fine.

My point was it isn't as simple as what's "okay" to say and what isn't.

(Okay, well, to be fair, if you're just wondering if it's okay to call someone something or not, I suppose it is that simple, but I was trying to move beyond that line of thought. If that's all you're concerned about, you can stop reading here, but I think there are greater issues than just avoiding offending people.)

The point is if we want to express ourselves, our identities, politically, artistically, it's not enough to avoid offense. In fact, oftentimes offending people is good. But the existing words and terminology are often not enough to fully express what we want to say, or have connotations that incorrectly misrepresent what we wish to convey. Sometimes the words we need to express an postindian experience or a postcolonial identity don't yet truly exist. And to fully understand evolving identities, it's important to understand the nuances between all of the words we use to express those identities, how they're limited, what they connote, how they may change going into the future, and perhaps how we might invent new ones.

(Sorry I'm going all metacultural on you.)
 
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Chrissy

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I'm mostly concerned with not offending people in general, yeah.

But also, reading your posts and learning from them -- that's important for my own enlightenment, so thank you.

Gone far and away from the OP, but to try to bring it back, I feel that the term "African American" is used incorrectly, to the point of being sort of obnoxious. I'm happy to be corrected though. If I should be using this term, someone please steer me straight. :)
 

aruna

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I have never used the term African American and never will. Not out of fear of offending people but because it is usually useless and inaccurate. If I come to America and you see me at the check-out, would you describe me as African-American? Because you would be wrong. I am neither African nor American; though my roots are certainly, among other things (European and Amerindian), African.
 

Lillith1991

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Chrissy I don't see the problem with people refering to your son as African American. Presumably if your son it like me, his father is descended from slaves brought to the united states that didn't flee to canada. When refering to people who's ancestors were forcibly brought here from Africa and stayed when they were freed it is technically the correct label.

It's a problem when someone like Aruna who is black, but not descended from African slaves brought to the the US is refered to as African American. It's a label meant for a certain group of black people, not every black person.

I identify as black or mulato, but my mother who herself is highly mixed (European, Indian, and some Native American) but looks white, isn't bothered when people refer to me as African American. Now, tell her she didn't give birth to me, and she will rightly be murderous. But that's a different issue that comes with one parently being an obviously (to outsiders) different ethnic group than their child.
 
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kuwisdelu

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I think this edit of mine may have been looked over, and I'm curious about others' thoughts on it:

I think "African American" can connote a kind of Pan-Africanism (though obviously referring to Americans), in the same way that "Native American" and "American Indian" tend to connote a kind of Pan-Indianism.
 

Lillith1991

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I think this edit of mine may have been looked over, and I'm curious about others' thoughts on it:

Certainly, as Aruna has mentioned. It tends to get used incorrectly to refer to all black people in the United States. Obviously that's wrong, because not all black people in the US are descended from slaves freed 160+ years ago. Some are of more direct African origin, or from Europe, or the Carribean.

Conversly, a lot of extremely light skinned descendants of said slaves get misslabeled as white. If they have European enough features, even though both their parents may also be descended from said slaves.
 
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Ken

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"Person of color" is even broader than "black", and includes lots of peoples who aren't black.

"Person of color" is basically shorthand for non-white.

Hmm. Wasn't aware of that. The term has a broader definition than I figured. Still a neat term. Thnx for the info.
 

Chrissy

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Chrissy I don't see the problem with people refering to your son as African American. Presumably if your son it like me, his father is descended from slaves brought to the united states that didn't flee to canada. When refering to people who's ancestors were forcibly brought here from Africa and stayed when they were freed it is technically the correct label.
Sure, presumably. But ime, people use that term to refer to "black people" because they're trying not to say "black."

I personally wouldn't refer to someone as African American unless they had first self-identified as such.

I identify as black or mulato, but my mother who herself is highly mixed (European, Indian, and some Native American) but looks white, isn't bothered when people refer to me as African American. Now, tell her she didn't give birth to me, and she will rightly be murderous. But that's a different issue that comes with one parently being an obviously (to outsiders) different ethnic group than their child.
I think your mom and I would be good friends. :D
 

Lillith1991

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Sure, presumably. But ime, people use that term to refer to "black people" because they're trying not to say "black."

I personally wouldn't refer to someone as African American unless they had first self-identified as such.

See that makes sense, your reason for not liking the term. Yes it is technically correct, but it's also used as an excuse not to say option b.

think your mom and I would be good friends. :D

She could tell you about how people still assume me and my sister are adopted.
 

Chrissy

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She could tell you about how people still assume me and my sister are adopted.
Argh. My first experience was with now 16-year-old when he was about a week old and I was at the grocery store.

The incident ended with me pretty much yelling at the person: "No, what I'm SAYING is that he came out of my vagina you idiot!"

(ETA: I may have been slightly post-partum :eek:)
 
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Lillith1991

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Argh. My first experience was with now 16-year-old when he was about a week old and I was at the grocery store.

The incident ended with me pretty much yelling at the person: "No, what I'm SAYING is that he came out of my vagina you idiot!"

(ETA: I may have been slightly post-partum :eek:)

Yup. Funny enough, she has only had other white people assume we're adopted. There was an Indian store owner who thought me and my younger sister looked like our dad was a dark skinned Indian (from India) person when our hair was pressed as small children. But they never assumed we were adopted, just had a hard time believing it was my mother's father who had Indian ancestry and not our dads.

One she would gently remind that her dad was the one who was half-Indian, the other to this day drives her bat crap insane.
 
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Chrissy

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The thing too is that if they would just look past the skin/eyes/hair, they would see the resemblance. My black son looks more like me than my two white sons.

To be fair, some do see it. Of course, then it's like... oh my God! I see the resemblance!!! *sigh*
 

Lillith1991

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The thing too is that if they would just look past the skin/eyes/hair, they would see the resemblance. My black son looks more like me than my two white sons.

To be fair, some do see it. Of course, then it's like... oh my God! I see the resemblance!!! *sigh*

That's when you start plotting homicide. Well, that's when my mother would start plotting homicide. :tongue
 

LieForALiving

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Is there a better (or more PC) way of describing my character, or is it still okay to call someone an African American? Thank you.

To get back to the OP (though it was posted awhile ago), I would take a look at what is appropriate to call a certain race in YOUR book rather than focusing on the Politically Correct Term of the Moment. Race is a sensitive issue that people have a LOT of opinions about, so you will NEVER please everyone. I wouldn't worry about making it PC, I would worry about it fitting the setting of your work.

For example:

Is your novel an omniscient 3rd person set in modern day? Then why not just describe them? "Melissa had curly black hair and dark skin the color of lightly milked coffee."

Limited third person set in modern day? Then what would the CHARACTER think of the person's skin color? How would THEY describe the person?

Are they a black person who thinks of themselves as black? "Melissa stared into the mirror. She barely recognized the attractive black woman smiling back at her, her pretty round face framed in curls. How could she look so happy when she felt so sad?"

A white person who was taught that African American is PC? "Jodie glanced up from her homework, frowning as she caught sight of her roommate, Melissa, staring into a mirror. The beautiful African-American woman was smiling broadly, but the slight trembling in her hands revealed her distress."

A pissed off urban teenager who uses the word 'nigga,' much to his great grandfather's distress? "Peter scowled at his grandfather, crossing his arms over his chest. He didn't care what Gramps thought, his niggas were cool, and if the man didn't like them, he could kiss Peter's black ass."

Is it a third person limited set in 1960? Then how you describe a black person would change: "Melissa frowned deeply as her eyes locked on the fountain. The store manager would be furious if he knew a colored girl had sipped from his precious stream."

Or is it a first person story set in the 1800s? "It was a tough life, living back then. To the white man I was just another nigger; but, to my fellow negroes, my light skin betrayed me: I was the bastard daughter of a white man."

As you can see, all these ways work to get across the point of the person's race but still stay within the voice of the story. I would worry less about what's "PC" to call a person of color and focus on what your CHARACTER would call them. The story's not about what you, the author, would call a person in order to be PC, but what's appropriate for your narrator's voice.
 
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aruna

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Certainly, as Aruna has mentioned. It tends to get used incorrectly to refer to all black people in the United States.

The trouble is that the term has come even to include people who have nothing to do with the USA. I have heard Naomi Campbell referred to as African American. I have heard Africans in Africa referred to as African Americans! No kidding. Granted, this was some time ago, but for a long time African America was a PC synonym for black even in truly outlandish cases.
 

Putputt

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To get back to the OP (though it was posted awhile ago), I would take a look at what is appropriate to call a certain race in YOUR book rather than focusing on the Politically Correct Term of the Moment. Race is a sensitive issue that people have a LOT of opinions about, so you will NEVER please everyone. I wouldn't worry about making it PC, I would worry about it fitting the setting of your work.

For example:

Is your novel an omniscient 3rd person set in modern day? Then why not just describe them? "Melissa had curly black hair and dark skin the color of lightly milked coffee."

Yes and no. I used to think that descriptions like that would be sufficient, but nope. Let's not forget the whole Rue-is-not-black debacle. White default happens, and I'm pretty sure if you ask people what race the character is based on that description, many of them would say "tanned white person".

I much prefer to just say the character's race when it is appropriate (as in when it befits the story's circumstances). Fortunately, my last book is a YA contemporary set in the US, so I could say "black girl", "Asian guy", "Latina", "white girl" etc without any mention of "mocha skin" or *shudders* "almond-shaped eyes". It is a sad truth that white default exists, and whenever I can, I will make it undeniably clear that my characters are PoC.
 

aruna

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My novels have mostly all-PoC characters. But as it's a multi racial society I have to say they are black or Indian or Amerindian, or, more rarely, Chinese - but only the first time they appear. Sometimes though I have to mention a white character...
in fact, one of my novels begins with the sentence: When it was all over, all the bodies counted and sent home, I remembered the white woman on the Witte Zee.
In my books, white is unusual and so it is always mentioned when a white person pops in. PoC is the default, and I like it that way!
 

LieForALiving

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Fortunately, my last book is a YA contemporary set in the US, so I could say "black girl", "Asian guy", "Latina", "white girl" etc without any mention of "mocha skin" or *shudders* "almond-shaped eyes". It is a sad truth that white default exists, and whenever I can, I will make it undeniably clear that my characters are PoC.

LOL, "almond eyes" always makes me think about when I took my Special Education Certification test and had to know that people with Down Syndrome have "thick epicanthal folds."

I agree that a white default exists, as I have asked many PoC if they automatically imagine main characters that have not been described as their race, and most say no, they imagine them as white. (Thank you, Hollywood.) I just prefer to only loudly point out race in omniscient view if it is important to the story, as I think part of the race issue stems from the fact that we make it such a big deal what race someone is. Yeah, Rue was black and I imagined her as Indian (from India, not NA). But it wasn't really important to the story what ANYONE'S race was, as there did not seem to be a lot of racial disparagement in this particular future. I mean, Katniss never directly thought "Thresh was a really big, strong black guy," probably because it didn't matter enough to her.

I also totally understand that PoC are dramatically underrepresented in pop culture, and why it is very important to some people to make it clear that their character is a PoC. It's just my personal taste to leave that for when it matters. Of course, I usually write from a limited point of view rather than omniscient anyway, so race is always mentioned, as most modern day people DO notice someone's race right away.
 

Putputt

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LOL, "almond eyes" always makes me think about when I took my Special Education Certification test and had to know that people with Down Syndrome have "thick epicanthal folds."

I agree that a white default exists, as I have asked many PoC if they automatically imagine main characters that have not been described as their race, and most say no, they imagine them as white. (Thank you, Hollywood.) I just prefer to only loudly point out race in omniscient view if it is important to the story, as I think part of the race issue stems from the fact that we make it such a big deal what race someone is. Yeah, Rue was black and I imagined her as Indian (from India, not NA). But it wasn't really important to the story what ANYONE'S race was, as there did not seem to be a lot of racial disparagement in this particular future. I mean, Katniss never directly thought "Thresh was a really big, strong black guy," probably because it didn't matter enough to her.

I also totally understand that PoC are dramatically underrepresented in pop culture, and why it is very important to some people to make it clear that their character is a PoC. It's just my personal taste to leave that for when it matters. Of course, I usually write from a limited point of view rather than omniscient anyway, so race is always mentioned, as most modern day people DO notice someone's race right away.

Bolded mine. The bolded part is why it's important to me to make it clear that my characters are PoC. :) As for whether or not the character's race is relevant to the story, I don't think it should matter whether it's relevant to the story or not, because PoC just...exist. We're here regardless of whether or not we're "relevant", and so whether or not it affects the story, I'm still going to make it clear that hi readers, we exist. :D
 

Chrissy

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Bolded mine. The bolded part is why it's important to me to make it clear that my characters are PoC. :) As for whether or not the character's race is relevant to the story, I don't think it should matter whether it's relevant to the story or not, because PoC just...exist. We're here regardless of whether or not we're "relevant", and so whether or not it affects the story, I'm still going to make it clear that hi readers, we exist. :D

Just a random thought: the above is what my parents would call a "calling." It's not that it's required. It's not that it's what everyone should do. But the people who do it, who are "called" to do it: They are they ones who will challenge the status quo, break down the paradigms, and ultimately, change the world.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not writers who are trying to respond to demands for diversity, or the writers who 'want to do the right thing' (although that's all very cool, but tends to result in ebony skin, almond shaped eyes, and possibly stilted references to a character being "African American").

When it's the writer who wants this, who feels it in her gut, who wants to make the statement, as Putputt says, that WE ARE HERE, then that's where the authenticity is, and that's where the change will happen.

IMO.
 
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Putputt

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Just a random thought: the above is what my parents would call a "calling." It's not that it's required. It's not that it's what everyone should do. But the people who do it, who are "called" to do it: They are they ones who will challenge the status quo, break down the paradigms, and ultimately, change the world.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not writers who are trying to respond to demands for diversity, or the writers who 'want to do the right thing' (although that's all very cool, but tends to result in ebony skin, almond shaped eyes, and possibly stilted references to a character being "African American").

When it's the writer who wants this, who feels it in her gut, who wants to make the statement, as Putputt says, that WE ARE HERE, then that's where the authenticity is, and that's where the change will happen.

IMO.

Buhhhh :D I never thought of it as a calling, but thank you. I love your post. :) Thank you.
 

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I prefer a simple mention of race. I doubt that all us who come across the phrase "black girl" would imagine the same person.

I don't like such phrases as olive skin and almond-shaped eyes as racial indicators. I know plenty of black people with such features, as well as white skin and green eyes. Some of the darkest people I've met were from India, which I thought was cool and interesting. I have no idea how they felt about it, however.
 

kuwisdelu

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I don't like such phrases as olive skin and almond-shaped eyes as racial indicators. I know plenty of black people with such features, as well as white skin and green eyes. Some of the darkest people I've met were from India, which I thought was cool and interesting. I have no idea how they felt about it, however.

Yeah, if you just mention a dark skin color... that's not nearly enough to tell me whether someone is black.

And if you just mention a light skin color... that's not nearly enough to tell me whether someone is not black.
 
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