Self-pub question

Thewitt said:

You are incorrect.

CreateSpace's ISBN can be used through their Expanded Distribution program in physical book stores. You can read about their Expanded Distribution program on their website.

Ingram and NACSCORP are two distributors who are enabled through this program. Barnes & Noble also purchases through this program.

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It reads to me as if you and Old Hack are talking about two different things.

Old Hack didn't say, as far as I can tell, (though I might be mistaken about what either of you meant or what CS's page means) that the books couldn't be ordered by bookshops that had access to the places that have agreed to distribute CS things, but that the ISBNs on the books placed in those channels don't register with the systems in the physical shops, hence the shops can't track the sales, hence they may be reluctant to order the books even if they can.

Considering the kerfuffle I've seen ensue when a shop till worker scans a product and the register basically says, 'huh?' I can't say I'd blame shops if that were the case.

I'm not really sure what argument you guys are even making.

These are real ISBNs and they work in real book stores all over the world.

Ingram doesn't have any problem distributing books with CreateSpace ISBNs, and they know a thing or two about book distribution.

Thewitt said:

I'm not really sure what argument you guys are even making.

These are real ISBNs and they work in real book stores all over the world.

Ingram doesn't have any problem distributing books with CreateSpace ISBNs, and they know a thing or two about book distribution.

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I'm not making any argument at all.

Have you seen these books stocked in physical bookstores all over the world?

There's a difference between availability and presence.

cornflake said:

I'm not making any argument at all.

Have you seen these books stocked in physical bookstores all over the world?

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So you really do just argue for the sake of arguing I guess.

Yes I have seen, and purchased CreateSpace distributed printed books in multiple book stores in multiple countries. I live in Malaysia and travel extensively throughout the region.

The reason I went with CreateSpace was in large part because of their extended distribution agreement with Ingram, who distribute to Popular - one of the largest bookstores in Asia.

Thewitt said:

I'm not really sure what argument you guys are even making.

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And yet you feel able to tell me this:

Thewitt said:

You are incorrect.

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Thewitt, with all due respect, I don't think you know enough about bookshop distribution to understand what you're arguing about here.

That doesn't excuse your rudeness: but it does explain it.

Thewitt said:

So you really do just argue for the sake of arguing I guess.

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You are not going to do this here.

If you can't treat everyone at AW with respect, you will be banned from the site. Consider this your warning.

I'm going to leave this thread locked for now, as I don't have time to monitor it at the moment.

I'm going to reopen this thread now, so that its OP can continue to receive the advice she needs. Please remember AW's requirement that you all respect your fellow writers: rudeness will not be tolerated.

Thewitt said:

These are real ISBNs and they work in real book stores all over the world.

Ingram doesn't have any problem distributing books with CreateSpace ISBNs, and they know a thing or two about book distribution.

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Ingram might list books with CreateSpace ISBNs (although I'm not entirely sure that it does) and make them available for purchase by booksellers: but it doesn't distribute them unless the books' publishers have a full distribution contract with Ingram; and there are other distributors and wholesalers around which might not list your book.

Note that Amazon's Expanded Distribution does not give you a distribution contract, it just "make your title available for order". As I think I said earlier, there's a big difference between what Amazon means by "distribution" and what the booktrade (which includes trade publishers, bookshops, and wholesalers and distributors like Ingram) mean by that same term. There's a brief discussion of the different meanings of "distribution" here.

As I understand it, paying for an ISBN from CreateSpace allows you to put your name down as the publisher of your own book, rather than having it listed as being published by CreateSpace; and paying for their "expanded distribution" only means that your book gets listed for sale in various places. No efforts are made to actually attract sales, and booksellers will only order the book in if they first know it exists--which is unlikely to happen without great efforts on your part--so don't expect too much from it.

If your books are not returnable, and if you offer low discounts, then even bookshops which find out about your books and want to order them are going to think twice about actually placing those orders. And even if they do order them, few POD books are going to be tough enough to withstand the wear they'll get on the shelves.

In other words, there are lots of barriers placed between self published books and full-service distribution. Don't let Amazon's hijacking of the "distribution" term mislead you.

Old Hack said:

As I understand it, paying for an ISBN from CreateSpace allows you to put your name down as the publisher of your own book, rather than having it listed as being published by CreateSpace; and paying for their "expanded distribution" only means that your book gets listed for sale in various places. No efforts are made to actually attract sales, and booksellers will only order the book in if they first know it exists--which is unlikely to happen without great efforts on your part--so don't expect too much from it.

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Yes, this is my understanding of what CreateSpace does - the Expanded Distribution places your book on Ingrams' (and others) list so it can be ordered, nothing more.

Brick-and-mortar book stores can get books with Createspace identifiers. But...they won't. If selling print copies through book stores is part of your plan, you need a separate ISBN and go through Ingram.

Aztecsince79 said:

Brick-and-mortar book stores can get books with Createspace identifiers. But...they won't.

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The most common reason physical bookshops don't get self published books in stock is that they don't know they're there. The sort of "distribution" Amazon offers merely makes it available for them to order: but to order it, they have to know it's there, which requires some sort of sales push. As I think I explained earlier, this sales push is a big part of the distribution effort trade publishers make, and that's why they get their books into bookshops.

If selling print copies through book stores is part of your plan, you need a separate ISBN and go through Ingram.

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This isn't enough to get your books into bookshops.

You also need good sales people behind your book. To get nationwide coverage you need a nationwide sales force; even to get local placement you probably need more than you can do alone.

And then there are the terms.

Bookshops usually require a high discount. 48 to 55% off retail is common.

Bookshops usually require 90 day credit.

Bookshops usually require books to be returnable. They might return them if they don't sell within a few weeks, and if they get damaged on the shelf--so you will get damaged books back, and will lose money on them.

POD books don't withstand shelf-wear very well, so are more likely to be returned than offset-printed books.

Because of the high upfront cost of offset printed books, most self publishers use POD for their printed editions--even though the unit-cost is much, much higher.

A POD book's high unit-cost means it's often not possible to offer bookshops the discounts they require without hiking the cover price up to unreasonable amounts, which then makes the bookshop unlikely to order them in the first place. And if they do, a POD book's more flimsy construction means it's more likely than an offset book to be damaged while on the shelf, making those costly returns more likely.

All this makes me wonder how realistic it is for self published writers to sell their books in bookshops if they don't have the resources and fanbase required to justify an offset run.

Many indie bookstores here in the States - and the surviving chains - are really reluctant to order POD books. Basically, those books have to be pre-paid before the store will order them. That means customers have to know about the book *and* be willing to pony up money for it.

Good pre-publication marketing is critical to building that first wave of customers and reviews. From what I've heard from successful self-pub launches, that means ARCs, press packages, advertising, etc. should be ready three to six months beforehand. Longer if your target venue is huge and popular.

I considered self-publishing a novella last year, but stepped back when I realized neither the book nor I was ready. I'm glad I waited. It's going out to commercial pubs first. At the same time, I'm doing more research into what I need to self-publish properly.

So good luck to the OP, and may all the dominoes fall just right.

Lizzie7800 said:

I am pretty close to publishing, at most a month away. My editor is almost finished and I hired someone to format to get it ready for print and Kindle.

My question is, what else do I need to do? I haven't written my "blurb" yet and am wondering how long it should be. Is there anything else I am missing?

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A GREAT move already, hiring an editor and somebody to format everything. I feel like most don't do this and rush into the process, giving self publishing a bad rep.

You already have a site, so that's great. If I were you, I'd get started on the marketing. That's the hardest part I think. Find some book reviewers in advanced so you can get some stars on Amazon and Goodreads.

Participate in Goodreads conversations too.

Good luck!

Lizzie7800 said:

I've been on goodreads for several months and have 6 blog reviewers lined up, but I wasn't going to have them review until it's published. I thought it wouldn't be smart to hand out my manuscript...you don't think I don't need to worry about it not being copyrighted yet?

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Review bloggers are not going to steal you book and upload it as their own. More to the point is they only want a finished book, not your in-progress manuscript. So you want the formatted version to send them.

Lizzie7800 said:

I've been on goodreads for several months and have 6 blog reviewers lined up, but I wasn't going to have them review until it's published. I thought it wouldn't be smart to hand out my manuscript...you don't think I don't need to worry about it not being copyrighted yet?

My editor gave me access while he edited (in google docs) so I was able to rewrite as he edited. The lady who's formatting it for me is doing a Kindle and a print version, she actually has it now as my editor and I are finished. She's done this many times. I have a website and professionally designed cover.

I was feeling pretty confident until I read all these responses! Now I'm afraid I didn't publicize enough ahead of time. :/

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If you wrote it, it's under copyright. That's how copyright works.

Lizzie7800 said:

I've been on goodreads for several months and have 6 blog reviewers lined up, but I wasn't going to have them review until it's published. I thought it wouldn't be smart to hand out my manuscript...you don't think I don't need to worry about it not being copyrighted yet?

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As has already been said:

cornflake said:

If you wrote it, it's under copyright. That's how copyright works.

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As soon as you create a work it is protected by copyright. You can then register your copyright to it, but that's a different thing.

You'd be wise to hand out a few advance readers' copies (ARCs) a couple of months prior to publication to give the reviewers time to read, process and write their reviews so that when publication hits, you can (we hope) use quotes from those reviews to promote your book.

My editor gave me access while he edited (in google docs) so I was able to rewrite as he edited.

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You can't effectively edit a book a chapter at a time and know that it's done.

You can't effectively rework one chapter without knowing for sure that it's not going to need changing again when a future chapter is reviewed.

I am concerned by how this editor worked.