The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

Status
Not open for further replies.

AKyber36

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
231
Reaction score
14
Location
USA
It's hard to say, from what you've posted, what they should have. It will also depend on WHERE they are. They'd want a gun local enough or common enough not to stand out when forensics is done. If they're planning a quiet execution, a suppressed ("silenced" though they aren't really).22 or subsonic and suppressed 9mm would be a good choice. If they plan to just drive by and shoot, anything will work. If they want to make sure he's dead quick, shotguns up close. If they want to work at a distance, they'll need a rifle.

Hollowpoints won't stop a bullet exiting, if velocity is sufficient. The FBI recommends 12" of penetration in flesh to assure a reliable stop. A hollowpoint or other expanding ammo only create a larger wound channel and trauma.

I'm thinking the syndicate that's after him wants a quiet execution but when he's on the run in the beginning of the story, he gives them some trouble. After that, they send their best after him, which involves a house break-in (his friend's, nonetheless) and I'm thinking they can vary it up a bit more in terms of firepower. In terms of the MC, he can carry a 9mm (of which first Google result brought up the Glock 17). His back-up gun will probably be similar or can be a .22 (Walther looks like they carry a P22).

Ah, thanks for that clarification. Somewhere earlier on this thread, someone mentioned hollowpoints have a lesser tendency to 'exit' compared to higher caliber bullets. I see it all depends.

A lot depends on the background of the characters. If they're ex-army they'll probably prefer an issued sidearm for that particular army. If they're Russian they might go for the Makarov. An American would probably choose an American firearm, a German might go H&K, a Brit would tend towards a Walther.

As for size, generally hitmen use .22 or .25 calibre on a very small frame pistol. They get close to the target and pop two in the head. Because of the small calibre the pistol is easily concealable and the noise is not so likely to alarm neighbours.

My characters are Japanese-American, so I think American firearms would be suitable in that case. Didn't know Brits tended towards Walthers - interesting. The syndicate chasing him is Japanese (not Yakuza), so I'm guessing they're a bit more mixed in terms of weaponry.

Ah, so .22 or .25 caliber seems to be the standard. Yeah, the silent execution style. So I take it that if my MC has two small frame pistols, he can hide them in holsters underneath his shirt and he'll be fine? Or does he need to conceal them with something better, like a jacket?
 
Last edited:

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
Ah, thanks for that clarification. Somewhere earlier on this thread, someone mentioned hollowpoints have a lesser tendency to 'exit' compared to higher caliber bullets. I see it all depends.

Yeah they do have less of a tendency to exit, but if you're talking a .45 or even 9mm even hollow points will exit most of the time. They will have lower exit velocity and less tendency to cause severe trauma if there is another person standing behind the intended target (or behind a wall that's behind the intended target).


My characters are Japanese-American, so I think American firearms would be suitable in that case. Didn't know Brits tended towards Walthers - interesting. The syndicate chasing him is Japanese (not Yakuza), so I'm guessing they're a bit more mixed in terms of weaponry.

Ah, so .22 or .25 caliber seems to be the standard. Yeah, the silent execution style. So I take it that if my MC has two small frame pistols, he can hide them in holsters underneath his shirt and he'll be fine? Or does he need to conceal them with something better, like a jacket?

It really depends on how your MC dresses, what he needs to do etc., but I would not say a pistol of any frame can be easily concealed inside a normal shirt (perhaps a thick flannel one or such).

If he were doing a job in an office building he might dress as a bike courier, they go anywhere unnoticed and have big carry satchels to conceal gear in. If he's doing a hit in a park he might dress as a jogger and conceal a pistol behind one of those mini water bottles joggers wear on belts. If he's dressed for business he might use a briefcase or conceal in a shoulder holster (though a business-suit jacket might show a bulge). An ordinary leather jacket or similar would be enough to conceal a pistol under normal circumstances, but it's also pretty easy to conceal a small pistol at your ankle (especially if he wears boots). Ankle holsters aren't as accessible, but they're good for back-ups.

Walther is what James Bond uses so they're popular among Brits. The British don't really have a good pistol manufacturer anymore AFAIK, so they cling to the one with the most English cache.

If he's international, a lot of people favour German or Austrian makes, Steyr, Walther, H&K. Glock is a bit of a funny one, some people like them, some people hate them. They're super-common because the trigger is similar to the old SA revolvers many police departments had so it was assumed it would be easier to re-train to a Glock than another kind of pistol. Most other modern pistols are SA/DA which I personally prefer, and I think a hitman would probably prefer as well (although I have never fired a Glock, I have fired a SA/DA revolver and I found I was far more accurate using it as a DA).

SA=Single action, trigger cocks and fires the action. Generally means a longer, heavier trigger pull.
DA=Double action, the hammer can be cocked by hand or through cycling of the action on an auto, the trigger only releases the tension in the springs.
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
I have fired a SA/DA revolver and I found I was far more accurate using it as a DA).

SA=Single action, trigger cocks and fires the action. Generally means a longer, heavier trigger pull.
DA=Double action, the hammer can be cocked by hand or through cycling of the action on an auto, the trigger only releases the tension in the springs.

Not quite. Revolvers operate either single-action or double-action, so there is really no SA/DA revolver.

A single-action revolver requires the hammer to be drawn back to turn the cylinder and engage (lock into) the trigger sear. That's when an SA can be fired by a much lighter squeeze on the trigger than firing double-action.

A double-action revolver may be fired two ways (thus the name):

One is the action above. Double-action revolers may be fired in the single-action mode.

The other action is to perform the entire firing sequence with a longer, harder stroke of the trigger. The trigger clockwork turns the cylinder while moving the hammer back. When the cylinder locks in alignment with the barrel, the sear trips and allows the hammer to fall.
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
Revolvers come in SA only and DA only Chase.

I got SA and DA backwards though, you're right about that.
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
Revolvers come in SA only and DA only Chase.

I got SA and DA backwards though, you're right about that.

Yes, punctuation notwithstanding, both of the items above are exactly what I said. I shoot both single-action and double-action revolvers in competition and practice weekly with both.

However, there are always exceptions, and you accidentally touched on one: Several revolver makers do offer "DA only" models. Those come without hammer-spurs or with hammer shrouds so that the hammer cannot be thumb-cocked. They operate only in the "double-action" mode of stroking the trigger for firing.
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
You seriously have nothing better to do than criticize the grammar of others on Internet forums?

I know you have some kind of personal vendetta against me Chase, but grammar, I mean really? How old are you again?
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
You seriously have nothing better to do than criticize the grammar of others on Internet forums?

I know you have some kind of personal vendetta against me[,] Chase, but grammar[?] I mean really? How old are you again?

Seventy going on 71, most of it as a competitive shooter and certified military and civilian firearms instructor.

Seriously, it was punctuation, because one should be extremely cautious with details when someone plays so fast and loose with facts (like the nonsense vendetta accusation).

Most often I agree with your posts and say so before sending a rep. I usually only respond the other way when a post edges into nationalistic disdain, derides an expert opinion you don't fully understand, or -- like the single-action versus double action pronouncement -- is just plain wrong.

You can fool some of the people most of the time and most of the people some of the time but never an old gunner who's really been there and actually done that.
 

Mark G

Author of Reborn to Bite
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
932
Reaction score
63
Location
Southern California, USA
Website
www.markgronwald.com
My character and his bud are assassins, so that's where it gets tricky.

If I were to change jobs and go into this type of work, I'd want to survive for many years doing it. If your characters are conscientious assassins, then they're likely to try to avoid getting caught. There are a few ways that assassins an get caught; one involves being there without an alibi, and another involves forensics.

As far as self-defense weapons go, you might pick something that ignores these concerns because any death could be ruled "justifiable homicide."

So how will your characters normally perform their "wet work"? Up close? From a distance? Why do they need to resort to a firearm, rather than making it look like an "accident"?

If I were to take up this kind of work, I'd pick a nice sniper rifle for distance shots and a silenced .22 for up close.

The .22 into the base of the skull rattles around and does a ton of damage and ballistics are nearly impossible (from what I've read), meaning that you wouldn't have to ditch the gun every time.

But bullets are so obviously homicide. I think that a great assassin would be like the one in the movie "The Mechanic" (take your pick of original or remake). The MC goes to great pains to make his work look like "natural causes".

If you're talking about government sanctioned actions like SEAL teams rolling into a hut and killing a bunch of pirates, then load for bear. Fully-auto SMGs with silencers, and Rock'n'Roll.
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
But bullets are so obviously homicide. I think that a great assassin would be like the one in the movie "The Mechanic" (take your pick of original or remake). The MC goes to great pains to make his work look like "natural causes".

Excellent advice. I wonder how many in history have been assassinated, and their insurance company pays on their accidental death clause?


If you're talking about government sanctioned actions like SEAL teams rolling into a hut and killing a bunch of pirates, then load for bear. Fully-auto SMGs with silencers, and Rock'n'Roll.

Paraphrasing a riverside sign in Alaska where fishing was prohibited: Pirates and terroists are like king salmon--life is good until the seals show up.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

Combat Word Hacker
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
306
Reaction score
43
Website
www.MichaelZWilliamson.com
Bullets are unlikely to "Rattle around" inside the skull. Either they have enough energy to penetrate the tissue (including bone), or they stop.

However, a .22 at the base of the skull, or dead center through the front near the eyes, will usually scramble enough matter to do the job.
 

Mark G

Author of Reborn to Bite
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
932
Reaction score
63
Location
Southern California, USA
Website
www.markgronwald.com
Bullets are unlikely to "Rattle around" inside the skull. Either they have enough energy to penetrate the tissue (including bone), or they stop.

However, a .22 at the base of the skull, or dead center through the front near the eyes, will usually scramble enough matter to do the job.

Not saying you're wrong, but I've heard that a .22 will slow down enough from initial penetration to lack the enrgy to escape the skull.

Can't recall where I heard it, and certainly not from professional experience... but I did a little search...



02/03/12 07:26 PM
  • -2
  • 2
  • 4
You actually can duct tape a 2liter bottle onto the end of a pistol and it will silence one shot as all the sound will be the bottle poping not as loud as an actaual silencer with subsonic rounds but in a pinch will work just fine....or if you still want to stay quiet use a .22 cal pistol with a silencer and shoot in the back of the head the bullet will go in but wont come out the other side as there is not enough velocity from a .22 to come out the otherside...the bullet will just rattle around inside the brain scrambling and killing the person. ANy questions or comments just let me know...I cannot divulge all of my Army background but I have the experience and if you are knowledgeable you will know what i'm saying is true!



Inside out: fifty years behind the walls of New Jersey's Trenton State Prison

By Harry Camisa, Jim Franklin

Passage about .22 rattling around in skull: (link)
 

AKyber36

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
231
Reaction score
14
Location
USA
Not saying you're wrong, but I've heard that a .22 will slow down enough from initial penetration to lack the enrgy to escape the skull.

Can't recall where I heard it, and certainly not from professional experience... but I did a little search...



Inside out: fifty years behind the walls of New Jersey's Trenton State Prison

By Harry Camisa, Jim Franklin

Passage about .22 rattling around in skull: (link)

That link was a fascinating read. Man, so the .22 effectively turns your brain to slop, huh? No wonder it's perfect for kills like that. Seeing it in context in that passage was very 'illuminating'.
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
One jailbird's secondhand knowledge is hardly a solid factual basis.

Do many people believe the .22 'rattles around'? Yes.

Does that make it true? No (doesn't make it false either, just has no merit in the discussion at all)

You need a forensic or scientific source for the theory to have any validity. Criminals believe a lot of stupid things, but then again, they make booze from Kool-aid.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

Combat Word Hacker
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
306
Reaction score
43
Website
www.MichaelZWilliamson.com
A soda bottle does make a so-so suppressor, though it's bulky, and it's not as effective as anything with a baffle stack. It'll make a subsonic .22 pistol sound like a loud air gun or paint marker.
 

Technophobe

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
147
Reaction score
21
Okay, Ive got a question about ammo clips. Can a person tell one model from another? For example, would they be able to look at it and tell it was for a Glock 9mm? Are clips marked in some way? Or does it depend on how experienced they are?
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
One jailbird's secondhand knowledge is hardly a solid factual basis.

Do many people believe the .22 'rattles around'? Yes.

Does that make it true? No (doesn't make it false either, just has no merit in the discussion at all)

You need a forensic or scientific source for the theory to have any validity. Criminals believe a lot of stupid things, but then again, they make booze from Kool-aid.

Exactly this. The "rattle around" thing sounds so awesome that people who want to sound knowledgeable love to repeat it; however, physicians at our practice range say it's just another catch-phrase.

One of our most experienced docs says a 40-grain .22 to the head usually "penetrates" (travels into the brain) but most often does not "perforate" (travel in and out) -- what the cop shows like to call another catch phrase, "through-and-through."

Another physician says there is usually a single, wound channel which ultimately proves fatal, but if the bullet does rebound from the opposite side, it only goes a short way.

As Michael says, "rattle around" is an exaggeration, as would be "turns your brain to slop."

Later edit: These two URLs lend credence our docs who shoot:

http://www.myhealthnewsdaily.com/799-what-does-it-take-to-survive-a-bullet-to-the-brain.html

http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/
 
Last edited:

AKyber36

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
231
Reaction score
14
Location
USA
Exactly this. The "rattle around" thing sounds so awesome that people who want to sound knowledgeable love to repeat it; however, physicians at our practice range say it's just another catch-phrase.

One of our most experienced docs says a 40-grain .22 to the head usually "penetrates" (travels into the brain) but most often does not "perforate" (travel in and out) -- what the cop shows like to call another catch phrase, "through-and-through."

Another physician says there is usually a single, wound channel which ultimately proves fatal, but if the bullet does rebound from the opposite side, it only goes a short way.

As Michael says, "rattle around" is an exaggeration, as would be "turns your brain to slop."

Thanks. That explains a lot about the damage of the .22. =) Being someone whose only shooting experience was a one-time deal at a shooting range my uncle took me to years ago, much of this stuff is still foreign. At least now I won't make that mistake about the .22's actual damage and repeat the same phrase.

Looks like I have enough to go off on to start planning and writing. Thanks a bunch! =) I'll delete my other big whopping post, since I'll figure that out myself. I'll still hang around on the thread, though - much of this is fascinating.
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
Okay, Ive got a question about ammo clips. Can a person tell one model from another? For example, would they be able to look at it and tell it was for a Glock 9mm? Are clips marked in some way? Or does it depend on how experienced they are?

I'm not familiar with every single magazine on the market, but yes, magazines are distinctive from one model and caliber of autoloader to another. Without markings, even casual visitors to a range can usually tell a standard M1911 .45 ACP magazine from a Luger 9MM magazine from a Walther PPK .380 magazine.

And yes, lots of people call magazines "clips," even though actual clips are different animals. Clips usually hold eight .30-'06 cartridges together to feed into an M-1 rifle--or hold strips of .30 Carbine cartridges in a line for easy insertion into a magazine--or position 9MM cartridges so they'll work in certain .38 Special revolvers. Like I say, real clips are different animals.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

Combat Word Hacker
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
306
Reaction score
43
Website
www.MichaelZWilliamson.com
"Clip" is colloquial. If it holds ammo to insert into a magazine (That has a spring) it is a clip. If it has its own internal spring, it is a "detachable magazine" or just a "magazine." Most magazines are "Box." Some are "rotary," "Drum," "pan" or other types.

They are easy to tell apart with experience. Many are marked with either weapon, type, caliber or mfr's info.

Colt45mag1.JPG
1911

p_100002752_1.jpg
GLOCK
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
BTW Akyber, before you ask. The holes in the magazines are so you can easily tell how full the mag is. You normally only see those holes on pistol mags because on a rifle or SMG the magazine sticks out and dirt would get in. Some rifle and SMG manufacturers have clear-ish plastic magazines for the same effect.

That's a newer idea and wouldn't be seen on most firearms over 20 or so years old.
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver

MichaelZWilliamson

Combat Word Hacker
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
306
Reaction score
43
Website
www.MichaelZWilliamson.com
I believe 1911 mags have always looked like that.

I am starting a round of tests on finishes for internal components, to include phosphate, hard chrome, nickel boron, QPQ and possibly cerakote.
 

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
9,239
Reaction score
2,316
Location
Oregon, USA
I believe 1911 mags have always looked like that.

I was but a lad of 18 in 1959 when introduced to Madam 1911A1 at Fort Gordon’s MP academy in Georgia.

She was 48, thirty years older, but it was love at first sight, and we were joined at the hip by a leather holster for nearly ten more years.

Most .45 ACP magazines at our MP school were the old type, two-tone rolled metal. Only the bottom halves were blued--upper halves left bare-metal white, as if to dare a spot of rust to settle--but all magazines had counter holes then as now. Two-tone mags were only manufactured until 1940, so that puts the age of counter holes pretty far back.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.