The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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MichaelZWilliamson

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But additionally, the hollow point "puts the brakes on" because as it flattens, it slows the bullet down keeping it inside the attacker's body, which means it won't strike any innocent bystanders behind the attacker. Also, if the hollow point hits a solid object, because it flattens, its less likely to ricochet or penetrate walls in your home, hitting your kids.

That doesn't seem pointless to me.

This is incorrect, though commonly believed. You get a bigger wound channel, IF the round has enough velocity or inertia to do so, as noted by David. Smaller cartridges tend not to.

While the theoretical ideal is to dump 100% of energy into the target, the reality is you have to punch deep enough to hit critical organs, which means you will have an exit wound in almost all cases. Rounds that were designed with the concept of stopping in target were proven to be less effective than ones that penetrated.

There are unfortunately no rounds that will both reliably stop a person and not penetrate through people, or walls. Any story you hear to the contrary is untrue. There are a LOT of such stories, but none are supported in experiment or field.
 

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There are unfortunately no rounds that will both reliably stop a person and not penetrate through people, or walls. Any story you hear to the contrary is untrue. There are a LOT of such stories, but none are supported in experiment or field.

I was under the impression that frangible rounds were good for both. Is this not the case? I don't have a lot of experience with them and wouldn't know.
 

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I was under the impression that frangible rounds were good for both. Is this not the case? I don't have a lot of experience with them and wouldn't know.

Frangible rounds will both not always stop someone and sometimes penetrate walls. What they always do, when hitting a person, is leave a wound that's much harder to heal and harder to treat.

Frangible rounds are not used in military or police agencies in any numbers because they simply don't do the job as well as conventional ammunition or they violate the Geneva Convention. The are used in many indoor ranges to allow the use of steel targets indoors, but those range owners soon find out what a mess they make of everything in the range.

Jeff
 

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This is incorrect, though commonly believed. You get a bigger wound channel, IF the round has enough velocity or inertia to do so, as noted by David. Smaller cartridges tend not to.
Can we define "smaller cartridges" in this case?

Are we talking 22s, 25s, 32s? Or even 38s? And what amount of powder? Now I'm curious. With what cartridge -- bullet weight and powder amount -- does buying a hollow point make sense?

And here's a video of a .22 Magnum Remington 40 grain hitting ballistics gel.
 

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Frangible rounds will both not always stop someone and sometimes penetrate walls. What they always do, when hitting a person, is leave a wound that's much harder to heal and harder to treat.

Frangible rounds are not used in military or police agencies in any numbers because they simply don't do the job as well as conventional ammunition or they violate the Geneva Convention. The are used in many indoor ranges to allow the use of steel targets indoors, but those range owners soon find out what a mess they make of everything in the range.

Jeff

I think some clarification is in order because although sometimes "hollow points" and "jacketed hollow points (JHP)" are considered to be "frangible rounds" that is not the best definition and not the definition Jeff is using here.

"Solid" bullets
These are generally defined as bullets made from one material, typically lead. These include "wadcutters" a target ammo where the entire bullet fits into the cartridge case and "semi-wadcutters" where the all lead bullet protrudes from the case and has a flat nose. These make neat holes in targets to make scoring for competition easier.

"Jacketed bullets" These include both full-metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets and semi-jacketed bullets.

"Full Metal Jacket" (FMJ) are (typically) lead bullets encased in a copper jacket. They do not expand when they hit flesh. They are used by the military to meet Hauge Accord standards and are also used as cheap target ammo.

"Hollow points" Bullets with a cavity in the nose designed to expand upon impact in flesh. They can be all lead (HP) or have a copper jacket that covers all but the tip. These are called "Jacketed Hollow Points (JHP)". Although, in use, many times both HP's and JHP's are called "hollow points" as a generic term.

Some people do consider HP's and JHP's to be "frangible ammo" as they can break up in a target but they don't meet the strictest definition below.

"Frangible Ammo" The most common type is made for use in indoor ranges, especially when shooting steel targets. The bullets are made from sintered metal. That's essentially powdered metal reformed into a solid. When they hit a steel plate or other solid they pretty much disintergrate. While they are still dangerous, they are not designed for self defense or hunting use. This is what Jeff was referring to when he talked about "frangible ammo."

Another type are Glaser Safety Slugs. These use what is essentially multiple pellets suspended in mercury (I think?). The idea is that they will be effective against people without going through interior walls. The downside is they are extremely expensive and, guess what, they still penetrate walls.
 

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Can we define "smaller cartridges" in this case?

Are we talking 22s, 25s, 32s? Or even 38s? And what amount of powder? Now I'm curious. With what cartridge -- bullet weight and powder amount -- does buying a hollow point make sense?

And here's a video of a .22 Magnum Remington 40 grain hitting ballistics gel.

The best way to evaluate defensive pistol ammo is to look at the FBI standards for minimum penetration and then look at tests in calibrated ballistic gel.

The FBI recommends defensive pistol rounds penetrate a minimum of 12" in ballistic gel in order to have the greatest chance of reaching vital organs in a human.

When you look at .38 Special or 9mm as a minimum there are plenty of specific HP and JHP cartridges that meet this requirement. There are also other loads that do not, although they typically come close.

When you go below 9mm to .380 ACP or .32 ACP or .32 S&W it gets more difficult to find a cartridge that will meet that 12" penetration minimum, if you can find one at all. That's way some people advocate using solid bullets or FMJ bullets if you use a .380 ACP, .32 ACP or .32 S&W for self defense. You trade off any chance of expansion (solid bullets and FMJ don't expand) for deeper penetration.

I'm not going to go into exactly what brands, specific loads, etc, do and do not meet that minimum FBI penetration or details on which ones do and also expand well, etc, as that is just too detailed for here. You can research this pretty easily yourself if interested.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Glasers don't use mercury. They're also not very effective at penetrating adequately. They do scream downrange at ungodly velocity, however.

Smaller and lighter than 9mm tend to have trouble expanding. If they do, they don't expand much compared to larger and/or faster projectiles. Lead .22s do okay. .25 ACP in a hollowpoint is pretty much a waste of time, especially when you can usually get a .32 in the same size package.

.22 mag is about as hot as rimfire gets. But, notice peak energy transfer was at 3" in gelatin, which means 1-2" in flesh, which is a vicious surface wound but might not be an effective stop. Ribs could stop it before it reaches vital organs, and heavy clothing will slow it and reduce the depth as well.
 

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Frangible rounds will both not always stop someone and sometimes penetrate walls. What they always do, when hitting a person, is leave a wound that's much harder to heal and harder to treat.

Frangible rounds are not used in military or police agencies in any numbers because they simply don't do the job as well as conventional ammunition or they violate the Geneva Convention. The are used in many indoor ranges to allow the use of steel targets indoors, but those range owners soon find out what a mess they make of everything in the range.

Jeff

Eee. That sounds all around nasty for any use. I had just seen them and was curious.

Thanks for the info. I've never used them because I've always been shooting outdoors or shooting things I intend to eat.
 

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the other day I got to considering sharp shooters, partly on account of this movie I watched. they can find their mark from a mile away or something of the sort. well I began calculating just how far that is. wow. really unbelievable !
 

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the other day I got to considering sharp shooters, partly on account of this movie I watched. they can find their mark from a mile away or something of the sort. well I began calculating just how far that is. wow. really unbelievable !
The History Channel or maybe H2 has shown a few documentaries on Snipers. I caught one, "Snipers: Inside the Crosshairs." It was pretty fascinating and followed snipers in the various wars. According to that, the longest confirmed sniper shot was over 1.5 miles.

If you YouTube "sniper" you'll find several documentaries on the subject.
 

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The History Channel or maybe H2 has shown a few documentaries on Snipers. I caught one, "Snipers: Inside the Crosshairs." It was pretty fascinating and followed snipers in the various wars. According to that, the longest confirmed sniper shot was over 1.5 miles.

If you YouTube "sniper" you'll find several documentaries on the subject.

That's unbelievable. 1.5 miles or even just a mile is really far. It's incredible for someone to be able to aim that well and also for a gun to be able to shoot that far period. Almost as if the bullet is flying. Will check for videos. Thnx.
 

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King Neptune

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A steady hand and an excellent spotter who can guide your shots. Until I watched that documentary, it never occurred to me the besides distance and windage, you also have to account for the earth's rotation! The target moves while the bullet is enroute.

Yes, and over that distance there can be different wind conditions, and the adjustment for the Earth's rotation would vary depending on the direction one was shooting; i.e., a west to east trajectory would require no adjustment, except that the target would be nearer than the measured distance, and the opposite for east to west, while a north to south trajectory would be different, etc.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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I have Army trophies using an issue M16A1 mfrd by H&R in 1967, using standard ammo, at 400 yards.

One of my target rifles will put ten rounds into 5/8" at 100 yards. I've also shot the M21 Sniper Weapon System (I was not a sniper, but I got to shoot on the range with some). Those are accurate enough I could actually call the shot after firing--know exactly where it had hit in relation to the center of the bull.

There are silhouette pistols that can do better than 6" at 1000 yards.

I've never shot my .50 at more than 750 yards, but at that range, it will reliably hit large can sized targets every time.

Modern barrels are usually hammered to shape around a form on very precise equipment. They can be precise to millionths of an inch in dimension.
 

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Not enough emphasis on drinking coffee. Should be:
1. Go to Sea
2. Drink Coffee
3. Watch Porn
4. Drink Coffee
5. Deploy the Marines
6. Drink Coffee

You forgot watch.

1. Go to Sea
2. Stand Watch
3. Drink Coffee
4. Stand Watch While Drinking Coffee
5. Fall Asleep on Couch
6. Wake Up Late for Watch
 

Duncan J Macdonald

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You forgot watch.

1. Go to Sea
2. Stand Watch
3. Drink Coffee
4. Stand Watch While Drinking Coffee
5. Fall Asleep on Couch
6. Wake Up Late for Watch

Watch isn't exclusive. You can (and generally do) combine watch with any and all of the above.

Falling asleep on the couch is reserved for the AirDet. We Black Shoes (i.e. Real Navy) don't have time for such shenanigans -- we're too busy drinking coffee, watching porn, and deploying the Marines.
 

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Couch? I don't recall a couch onboard ship. Maybe in the Captain or Admiral's staterooms. Not for us. I think we just had crappy wheeled desk chairs. And metal bunks with a 2" mattress. And only about 2 feet between the bunks so if you sat up quickly (like when they fired the 3" guns which were on deck right above our berth) you'd bang your head on the bunk or bulkhead above you.
 
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DadofSnorf

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Watch isn't exclusive. You can (and generally do) combine watch with any and all of the above.

Falling asleep on the couch is reserved for the AirDet. We Black Shoes (i.e. Real Navy) don't have time for such shenanigans -- we're too busy drinking coffee, watching porn, and deploying the Marines.

Haha. Well, I'm in the "Real Navy" and I've fallen asleep on the couch plenty of times. Usually it's at 2200 after dragging myself into berthing from the armory, and that's the first place I see that I can go horizontal. And as my wife likes to say, once I go horizontal, there's no going back.

I've also fallen asleep on the non-skid in the armory in between gun lockers. Or on top of the vidmar where no one can see. Or down in Landing Force where no one can see. Hmm... I'm detecting a pattern. :p

Couch? I don't recall a couch onboard ship. Maybe in the Captain or Admiral's staterooms. Not for us. I think we just had crappy wheeled desk chairs. And metal bunks with a 2" mattress. And only about 2 feet between the bunks so if you sat up quickly (like when they fired the 3" guns which were on deck right above our berth) you'd bang your head on the bunk or bulkhead above you.

You didn't have couches in berthing? My last boat was commissioned in the 80s and it had couches in every berthing. We still have the shitty metal racks with 2" mattresses and no space. Also, we have 5' guns now. ;)
 
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