Info Dumps and why I don't like them

shaldna said:

Sure, give me an infodump, but don't make it FEEL like an infodump.

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Yup

Make it funny*, or do it from a particular POV and make it reveal something about the character, or have it add to a creepy atmosphere or...

In other words, make it do something else, as well as giving me all this info.

*Pratchett is great at this. He info dumps all over but it's so entertaining I just don't care

Seconding the vote for Pratchett's info dumps. They're not a problem, they're a feature.

I'm just not that funny, so I have to try other tricks.

Hi guys!

Since it's my book, The Poisoned Pawn, that's being described as an info-dump, let me throw in my voice for a moment.

I totally agree that info-dumping slows down action. There are also times, however, where you are writing for a different audience -- my books are not just published in Canada but also in Germany, Holland, Norway, the UK, the Czech Republic and the US. So what may come off as info-dumping to a Canadian reader already familiar with the context being put forward (I'm guessing that as a Canadian, Ishtar'sGate, you're more familiar with Cuba than an American reader might be?) may not be perceived that way elsewhere.

I worked with a wonderful editor in deciding how much of info to leave in and what to leave out and I tried to introduce it as invisibly as possible by weaving references into different parts of the book rather than putting it all in a few places. Did I completely succeed? Do we ever? There are lots of parts of that book that I would go back and rewrite if I could, as with all my books. On the other hand, it got a great review in the New York Times and a starred review in Booklist, so I don't think it was a total failure. But overall, I agree with your comments about the need not to force information in -- whenever a reader finds themselves skimming, the writer has missed the boat, at least for that reader.

On the other hand, I ended up skimming huge chunks of Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and look how popular that was!

Anyway, happy you're reading my book, Ishtar'sGate, even if you don't love it. We can't nail every book we write, as much as we'd love to. Sorry if you found that this one dragged .... hope you'll stick with the series.

(Interestingly enough, my new publisher, Simon and Schuster, is asking me to add more background info to book 4, Umbrella Man, even though I've pointed out that it will slow down the action, so there you go!)

Hi, Peggy. Having to write and revise for various readership is complicated, I know. The level of info dumping my erotic romance readers will tolerate is far less than what my fantasy readers like.

Thanks, Filigree! It's hard in a series to know how much to repeat and how much to leave out as well. I found that very hard in this book, as it was a direct sequel to The Beggar's Opera. I think most of the criticisms it's received are from people who hadn't read the first book who felt it gave away too much of the plot of The Beggar's Opera. Can't win!

Peggy Blair said:

Thanks, Filigree! It's hard in a series to know how much to repeat and how much to leave out as well. I found that very hard in this book, as it was a direct sequel to The Beggar's Opera. I think most of the criticisms it's received are from people who hadn't read the first book who felt it gave away too much of the plot of The Beggar's Opera. Can't win!

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I've definitely had that problem with later books in a series - how much to include so new readers can 'get it', without repeating the whole plot of previous books. Blech.

You're right, there are no right answers, just lots of careful balancing.

You can never please everybody. It's just one of the facts of life.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

People will disagree on what qualifies as info-dumping just like they disagree in everything else. If we had hard and fast rules, we wouldn't need to have these discussions.

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I prefer infodumps over an MC waxing philosophical, or reminiscing or any form of internal monologue that goes on for paragraphs at a time, but nothing 'happens' otherwise. I've seen some people who object to starting with 'too much dialogue' and prefer to get to know characters first ...even when there was action and description as well. And my sister-in-law *loves* books that have tonnes and tonnes of research in them where the author goes into detail about the history of a place or how someone does xyz.

A few times I've skimmed over dialogue that didn't seem to be doing much to advance the story... it depends on what mood I'm in or why I'm reading something to begin with.

Mr Flibble said:

*Pratchett is great at this. He info dumps all over but it's so entertaining I just don't care

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I know, but it's like little stories and things all over the place, and you really don't feel like you are being TOLD stuff. He's amazing.

Now I gotta read this book.

Karen Junker said:

Now I gotta read this book.

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I know, right?

NRoach said:

I imagine it's because the first paragraph is reserved for the "hook" and place description, and the second is reserved for character description.
Once they're past those two, they can start overexplaining things.

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You've been reading my slush! lol

Thanks so much, Ishtar'sGate ! The Poisoned Pawn is a direct sequel to The Beggar's Opera, which made it difficult to figure out how much info to include and exclude ... anyway, I hope you enjoy TBO more (although having read The Poisoned Pawn, you'll know most of the plot twists ...). Thanks for a very interesting discussion!

Wilde_at_heart said:

I prefer infodumps over an MC waxing philosophical, or reminiscing or any form of internal monologue that goes on for paragraphs at a time, but nothing 'happens' otherwise.

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I do too, but these are our personal preferences. Other readers may love exactly what we hate! As Liosse points out, you can never please everybody.

I agree with Francis (Mr. Fribble) that we try to make any necessary info dumps entertaining in their own right.

And, Peggy, second the sentiments: thanks for the clarifications. (By the way, I appreciate The Poisoned Pawn title. Yours or and editors?)

A chess move, actually! The original name was The King's Indian, another chess move, but because it was being published in an American market, the publisher asked us to come up with something else.

JK Rowling does two different approaches to infodumps in the Harry Potter series. First approach, which works better, is by having Hermione explain something she read in a book. It works because Hermione's been established to be a bit of a know-it-all and a little didactic. It also helps in that sometimes the characters respond by rolling their eyes at another lecture.

Her second approach, which doesn't work as well, is at the end of the books where she has Dumbledore come on stage and explain everything to the slower reader in the audience. Dumbledore shows admirable dedication to this role as the last book proves not even the icy hand of death will stop him from explaining things to the stupid readers. As you can tell, I don't care so much for this approach, but I'd rather get my expository lumps towards the end rather than it being dumped on me at the beginning before I have any reason to care about the characters or the world.

Because of this exchange, Peggy Blair's books are now on my TBR pile.

If they're not overly long or excessive, I like info-dumps/expositions because I enjoy learning more about the character and about the setting. Especially in the historical genre.

The length here is key, because I've read books with huge info-dumps that I've just skipped and books that had expositions a bit longer than the standard which I thoroughly enjoyed. The opposite is also true, but rarely.

bearilou said:

Because of this exchange, Peggy Blair's books are now on my TBR pile.

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I know, right? In an age where we keep seeing the Author's Big Mistake, here's someone with a totally classy (and interesting) response to a critique. Kudos to Peggy.

Eddyz Aquila said:

If they're not overly long or excessive, I like info-dumps/expositions because I enjoy learning more about the character and about the setting. .

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If they're not overly long or excessive, they're expositions, not info dumps. The two words are not interchangeable.

I think everyone agrees that they hate info dumps, just like everyone agrees that they hate food that is badly cooked. Info dump (like badly cooked) is a negative term coined to describe something that is clumsily done.

But we won't all agree, exactly, about what constitutes an info dump or bad cooking. There are probably examples that nearly everyone will think are poorly done (info dumps), and that almost everyone will agree are skillful (not info dumps). But in the middle, we may start arguing about whether or not something really *is* an info dump or an appropriate use of exposition.

I don't actually mind info dumps as long as they don't cut the action. Even in the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo I read all the info dumps and those were long. I like to be educated. I like to know about new worlds. I like the character's backgrounds. But there is a time and a place for those, and not everyone knows where to put them. And they are always better when the characters are directly involved with the info dumps or they are an essential part of the story/plot. I adore Pratchett's info dumps.

Also, now I'm interested in this story that caused the thread.