Word Count

While I know very little about querying (sort of) since my own WIP is a humble 60,000 words so far, I have heard that novels need to be over 100k. People also tend to argue about that wherever it's posted.

One solution might be to divide the two parts into "parts" in the same volume. I'm divvying mine up into four parts, which make up book one. Would that make sense for your plot?

sayamini said:

While I know very little about querying (sort of) since my own novel is a humble 60,000 words so far, I have heard that novels need to be over 100k.

Click to expand...

Where on Earth did you hear that? General consensus is that it's harder to sell a novel of more than 100,000 words than one of, say, 80,000. And preferred word length is related to genre, as well.

caw

I know that MG fantasy novels are sometimes longer than suggested (by agents and such), but 150k is way too long for a single MG novel.

blacbird said:

Where on Earth did you hear that? General consensus is that it's harder to sell a novel of more than 100,000 words than one of, say, 80,000. And preferred word length is related to genre, as well.

caw

Click to expand...

How related is it to genre? Hypothetically speaking, let's say I'm writing a casual/sort of philosophical science fiction novel for adults. Is 150k too long? Because that's where I'm thinking it's headed...

sayamini said:

How related is it to genre? Hypothetically speaking, let's say I'm writing a casual/sort of philosophical science fiction novel for adults. Is 150k too long? Because that's where I'm thinking it's headed...

Click to expand...

Talking to both the OP and sayamini here:

-- Do you plan to self-publish? Go to an e-publisher?
If so, you have much freedom in word count. You can please yourself.

-- Do you want to be published by a Big Print Publisher?

In that case, investigate your market.
Familiarize yourself with what a book of 65K, 90K, 100K, and 150K looks like. Now head down to your local bookstore.

For sayamini: You'll find a number of SF&F books at 150K. Who publishes them? Which ones are by first-time writers?
That's your market.
Now look at the number of 80K to 100K books. Bigger market, isn't it?

For OP -- Go to the MG section, if they have one, and the YA section. (These are very different sorts of books, of course.)
How many 150K books on these shelves?

sayamini said:

How related is it to genre? Hypothetically speaking, let's say I'm writing a casual/sort of philosophical science fiction novel for adults. Is 150k too long? Because that's where I'm thinking it's headed...

Click to expand...

Word count is nearly entirely decided by the genre. Sci-fi and Fantasy carry the longest word counts, from 75K to over 250K (depending on sub-genre). Yet the market responds well to novels around 100K and under 150K typically. So, a Sci-fi novel in the 150K range is fine, but it might be a hard sell for a debut author. A YA Sci-fi in the 150K is over--you're looking at around 75K and under 100K if you can for YA.


Quentin, I say 150K is far too long for MG and also too long for YA. Though it sounds like you haven't figured this out, if it's in children's fiction, 150K is pushing things any way I see it.

But, splitting up books is seen as a really, really risky move and publishers are likely to only do this if the books show amazing promise. Very few successful books have cut larger stories in half without each book being as close to stand-alones as possible. Part of the problem comes in that you're forcing the reader to buy two books, when they only opted into buying one book with the faint clue that they'd be in for a commitment of the second one.

It might seem like you can't split the story up into two--we all know as they're like our children. Please understand that most "closed" series have a larger story that doesn't end until the last book, and each book is a step towards that end. Though with making all the books stand alones, they have their own plots that when added together equal the bigger picture. But you said that the MC resolves some issues; could you rework that to encapsulate the first book? Make their goal and motivation begin and end with the first, but with a small bigger picture on the horizon--perhaps even a larger opening at the end if you feel like pushing it? Think thought it. I've been down this road several times, and after bashing my head into the wall hard enough, I've worked things out.

Queryshark recently posted on the subject of manuscript length: http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2014/10/query-question-definitive-absolute-no.html

I'd see if you can find a way to make that first 75K stand alone. A 150,000 word debut YA fantasy is too long. About the longest I've heard of for a debut was Cassandra Clare at just over 130,000. But she already had a big fan fiction following, so that might have played a role.

If you were writing adult epic fantasy, you'd be in better shape. Yes, I know everyone says not to go over 120,000, but that simply is not consistent with the length of debut epic fantasies I've seen in the last few years. 150,000 is much closer to the average length (at least for the more popular ones published through the major houses).

Quentin Nokov said:

I've been looking around and I couldn't find any past thread on here that really seem to answer my question, so here I go:

I'm as concise as I can possibly be and though I haven't finished my novel yet, it's at 104,000 words and I expect it to run to 150,000 (at the least.) It's more of a middle-grade / young adult fantasy novel. (To be honest I'm not sure how to label it) I've been dividing the book up into multiple parts except none of the parts can stand alone.

Here's my question, should I publish the book as one large book or should I make it into two books. The first book would run at 74,000 words, and though it can't stand alone from the basic plot, it ends with the main character resolving several important issues. The second book, if my writing trend continues, will also end around 75,000 words. So would dividing it up in two separate books be better and end with a 'To be continued' or should I just publish everything all at once?

To note, I have other stand alone stories that I intend on publishing first. This one isn't going to hit the market right away. Also when I query, if I do divide it into two books I'll be letting the agent know that it can't stand alone however the sequel is finished.

But anyway, what do you ladies and gentleman think? Please break bad news gently!

Click to expand...

Have you worked with an editor or readers about the book structure? The point that 150,000 is much too long for a single book has already been hammered home, but questions like that, how can the story be divied up and separated, what can be done to compartmentalize it, are the kind of thing that outside perspectives can really help with.

jcwriter said:

Queryshark recently posted on the subject of manuscript length: http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2014/10/query-question-definitive-absolute-no.html

Click to expand...

Holy newsbreak, Batman!

I think I can honestly say that's the first time I've ever read an agent actually say that larger manuscripts are fine in the Epic SFF genre. Normally there's a caveat in there about bigger word counts being a cause for concern so the writing has to be sharper, the query shinier, etc etc.

Socks forcibly removed!

Ahem...Back to the OP......having said that, I'd probably say YA would be a hard sell at 150K, purely because I can't recall ever seeing a thick YA book on a shelf. I'd also say, you haven't finished it yet....so the editing blade will account for a fair chunk somewhere....taking Stephen King's formula of {SECOND DRAFT = FIRST DRAFT - 10%}, gives you 135K straight off the bat....obviously you have your own personal editing style.

Also I really, really can't get on with YA, largely because the tendency towards brevity (in my opinion) makes the plot a little too simple, promotes convenience over complexity really for the sake of pacing and excitement. YYMV of course - I'm well aware this is a personal thing entirely. Anyway, the point being: are you sure it's YA? Just having a young protag doens't make it YA; there's pacing issues, language decisions, world building conciderations, all of which contribute to a YA book for me.

And on the plus side - if when you've finished all that and you've still got 140-150K of good words, then you've got a whole 50-60K to slice the book in half and tidy up end of book one and the start of book two so you've got two self-contained novels......25-30K is a LOT of wiggle room to turn a half into a whole IMO

Hillsy7 said:

Also I really, really can't get on with YA, largely because the tendency towards brevity (in my opinion) makes the plot a little too simple, promotes convenience over complexity really for the sake of pacing and excitement. YYMV of course - I'm well aware this is a personal thing entirely. Anyway, the point being: are you sure it's YA? Just having a young protag doens't make it YA; there's pacing issues, language decisions, world building conciderations, all of which contribute to a YA book for me.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that, you can have an incredibably layered and complex plot in an 65K YA novel. This is more common in Literary than genre YA, but the same can be said of Lit vs adult genre fic as well. Lit tends towards heavily layered naratives emotionally, thematically, and plotwise as well. Doesn't mean you can't do it in 65K, just that it takes a great deal of skill. It's a different skillset writing a complex, fully realized plot and fictional world in the number of words debute YA averages. For all its onion like layers, Victoria Hanley's The Temple of The Oracle is in my top 5 favorite YA book. It's YA Fantasy, with a fully realized world and complex plot.

jcwriter said:

Queryshark recently posted on the subject of manuscript length: http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2014/10/query-question-definitive-absolute-no.html

Click to expand...

I have an issue with that post, but maybe I'm just being nitpicky. What the heck, I'll list my issues with it anyway.

• She doesn't include Horror in her assesment of appropriate length, nor Lit Fic, or Westerns.
• The post is extremely sparse, and not all that informative.
• No examples are given to back up her claims for the appropriate length in the genres/age groups she does mention.
• She lumps all YA together. Realistic/Contemporary YA is a whole other animal from SFF, Horror, Romance, Historical YA etc.

The absolute topper is this:

Sweeping, epic fantasy: 150K at a minimum. You can't do it right in less.

Click to expand...

She's presenting her highly subjective opinion as fact. There are plenty of all be it older EF books that manage to create rich, whole worlds with equally rich characters and plots in 150K and under. Just because writers nowadays don't do it, that doesn't mean it can't be done. As I mentioned before in this thread, writing shorter but richer or equally rich to longer works stories is a different skill set than writing long and rich.

All in all, her post isn't a horrible starting point. I just don't think it's a particularly good one either.

quentin, have you started sending to betas?

I'd be willing to bet you can cut, the issue is more steeling yourself to use the knife than certain scarring of the book. Folks like to cite The Stand as a long book that was successful, for example, and losing a few characters would have changed the book perhaps, but if Nick Andross was gone for example they'd lose maybe 20K, but it wouldn't have altered the beginning, or the final resolution.

Turn that thing loose to someone else and I strongly suspect they'll come back with entire chapters you can jettison

How tight is your writing? There's usually quite a bit of flab that can be cut from the first few drafts by simply excising unnecessary prose, without cutting any characters or scenes. Some things to look at:
- Overuse of adverbs
- Overuse of adjectives
- Use of helping verbs
- Unnecessarily long descriptions
- Repetition
- Dense dialogue
- Meandering
- Too much backstory

And so on and so forth.

Hillsy7 said:

Holy newsbreak, Batman!

I think I can honestly say that's the first time I've ever read an agent actually say that larger manuscripts are fine in the Epic SFF genre.

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that she doesn't represent fantasy/SF. Not sure she even reads it.

That said, 150K is probably not out of line for a very good debut novel.

Being utterly pithy, sweepingly judgmental, and 100% ignorant of the original work....(in other words: ignore at your leisure)....

1) What's essential to the story can be written in about 10 pages, the rest is just layers of awesome. at 104K you've technically written 100K more than is absolutely necessary to get the story across. For instance the Wheel of Time had hundreds of viewpoints, but probably only "needed" the main 3, over 14 books, which possibly could've been done in 1 (at a stretch).

In short, you *can* but it back - but the decision you must make is do you want all the awesome, or just all the awesome you can pack into a pre-designated space?

2) From what you've stated about your world building and plot, and the fact your protag isn't going to have similar issues as a young reader, it doesn't come across YA. Just because soemthing reads fine for a 12+ to understand, or uses language that's on the simpler side, doesn't make it YA. Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings is a good example....By his own admission he's a functional prose writer, and a good 12+ reader wouldn't have too much of a problem....but there's no way it's YA.

I'd take a look at the core theme's and issues your plot and characters are dealing with, and if it's not so tailored to a younger audience it'd be out of place on an adult fantasy shelf, drop the YA and market it as straight up SFF. Then just stuff in all the awesome you can.

3) Of course, you can just finish it up, shelve it, and come pack to it after the next project's done....you might find you've developed enough to make it work (Again, see Brandon Sanderson's reasons why it took him so long to hand the Stormlight Archive idea to his publishers)

So yeah - 3 whole points of ignorance. You've got plenty of options and, unfortunately, I think you're the only one who'll be able to pick the right one

Good luck!

BethS said:

Keep in mind that she doesn't represent fantasy/SF. Not sure she even reads it.

That said, 150K is probably not out of line for a very good debut novel.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's very much the positive weighting thing (you will give more credance to the 1 report you want to believe than the 10 you don't).....But when I was writing I searched this meticulously - for obvious reasons - and despite my shelves at home being almost exclusively full of thick SFF books, the general professional response was "over 130K is an auto-reject"*....I was just suprised to actually find something from an actual agent (rather than a writer or fan)...

{*Caveat: Not sure I found too many agents who commented on the subject who actually did represent EF}

81,000 is the perfect word-count length. A good friend who is also a writer once told me that during a writer's conference, she discovered that anything less than 80k pages is considered a novella, so anything more is considered a novel!

Food for thought

It probably depends on if they're all connected by one clear plot and arc trajectory or by three linked subplots, each with their own arc.

The fact that you're character is over 5,000 years old makes me think it's not MG or YA. It's just plain old fantasy. A 5,000 year old stuck in the body of a 13 year old shouldn't read as someone normal 13 year olds would relate to. So I'd question whether you actually have a story for younger audiences.

Note: that doesn't mean younger audiences can't enjoy it. There are many adult writers whose stories appeal to younger audiences without being YA or MG. Brandon Sanderson was mentioned above. While (most of) his stories are adult fiction, they also have a great deal of appeal for younger audiences.

Quentin Nokov said:

The story could be more literary fiction rather than YA. I honestly have no idea!

Click to expand...

Here's a post I've used for a while, which discusses the bloat in SF/F word counts, too.

OK, take this all with a grain of salt since I haven't read the thing.

I don't read or write literary, but if it's an action adventure about a guardian of the universe, I would guess that it's probably speculative fiction and not literary.

The distinction between YA and adult is subjective, but it generally depends on the themes. A 13-year old protagonist (even if it's just their body) could be a YA book, particularly if it involves things teenagers relate to--school, new independence, self-discovery, friends, new love, a protagonist actually trying to live as a teenager, whatever. If the protagonist is actually profoundly ancient, has little in common with real teenagers, is just a galactic champion with a quirky body, and has adult needs and desires... That could be an adult fantasy.

I would guess it is not MG. There's a BIG difference between MG and YA. They're much shorter and much simpler. Even 75K would probably be too long for one.

I write YA fantasy and want an agent, and I work off the assumption that 100K is the absolute upper limit for an unpublished author. 75K would be about perfect IMHO.

Hillsy7 said:

H

Also I really, really can't get on with YA, largely because the tendency towards brevity (in my opinion) makes the plot a little too simple, promotes convenience over complexity really for the sake of pacing and excitement. YYMV of course - I'm well aware this is a personal thing entirely. Anyway, the point being: are you sure it's YA? Just having a young protag doens't make it YA; there's pacing issues, language decisions, world building conciderations, all of which contribute to a YA book for me.

Click to expand...

You didn't just make such a statement about YA, but about thousands of novels in every other genre. It's fine not to like short novels, but brevity in no way reduces complexity, nor does a long novel increase complexity.