First Time Critique Attendendance

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JMC2009

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I've been doing some looking at critique groups here in town, and have found a couple I want to check out. The description for them on the website says to bring copies and be prepared to read and discuss.

The question becomes, how big of a faux paus would it be for me to come not prepared to discuss my own work? I'm introverted and a bit of a hermit (which is why I'm always in chat), so it's going to be nerve wracking enough for me to just show up and participate in a group with a bunch of strangers. To be ready to share my work (which is only half baked anyway) -- AAAHHHH!!!

So, any suggestions for going the first time? Plead ignorance and provide input on the other attendees' stuff? Sit back in a corner and observe, see how things flow?

There's no contact information on the website, and it's just as likely that I'll show up to find that they're not meeting. But just in case they are, I want to be prepared and not look like a (complete) idiot.

Thanks!
 

DanielaTorre

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Well, polish the hell out of your ms, that's for damn sure! LOL.

Do a log ling and short summary of what your book is about and try reciting it to yourself. So when someone asks you what your book is about, you'll be able to give them a quick, smooth answer.

It's my understanding that you pass out a chapter or so of your ms and the leader of the crit group (or you) reads it aloud. Then everyone talks about it. So you'll be doing more listening than talking about your work.
 

jvc

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Is there nothing you could take with you which you could read and discuss? Something small, a short story, or a few pages of a chapter? You know, if you wanted to prepare for the critique group, you could prepare by asking those in chat to help you practice what you would talk about.

Although, if you didn't want to take anything, then just say, you heard the critique group was at the venue and just popped down to see what it was about, not realising you had to bring anything with you. Maybe just ask them if you could observe the first meeting, or something.
 

dangerousbill

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The question becomes, how big of a faux paus would it be for me to come not prepared to discuss my own work? I'm introverted and a bit of a hermit (which is why I'm always in chat), so it's going to be nerve wracking enough for me to just show up

Just show up empty-handed and tell them you'll be more comfortable reading once you've had a chance to meet people. In other words, explain but don't make an excuse of it.
 

Sydneyd

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It also depends on the type of crit you are looking for. I know you do FF often here on AW, could you take one of the stories you are prouder of? I don't think all crits need to be end game types of things, but just samples that are indicative of your writing style.
 

katci13

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I understand. I've been wanting to go to a group but I'm too scared. I'm even more scared of taking my work in to strangers on the first day.

Although, personally, I don't think it's strange to show up unprepared on your first day. I think it makes sense to want to observe the first time and see what it's like and see if it's for you. I would probably bring a copy of my query with me in case they asked if I had anything at all, but that would be it, if anything.
 

Buffysquirrel

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I remember once my husband and I went to an event at a folk festival, not realising exactly what it was--it turned out was for everyone present to sing. Of course, we didn't sing. Chatting with people afterwards, they were joking about how we should come back next year and sing then, and talking about all the people who turn up every year who are going to sing 'next year'.

Which is a long-winded way of suggesting that if you turn up with nothing and say you didn't realise how the group worked, it's possible you'll be entirely transparent. Of course, they may be too polite to say so!

Honestly, Julie, there's no point in going if you're not going to join in. Screw your courage to the sticking point :).
 

Phaeal

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A good group leader (and group) will not be fazed in the least if you say you want to observe for a while before you share your work. It's quite reasonable that you need to learn the group's procedures and tenor first.

A group that has a problem with this may not be the group for you.
 

quicklime

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Honestly, Julie, there's no point in going if you're not going to join in. Screw your courage to the sticking point :).


this.

also, you're going to set a first impression as "chickenshit," "lazy," or any number of other less-than-stellar adjectives you have to then work twice as hard to rise above next time.....it's sort of like walking out to the end of the diving board; you either jump in with both feet, or not at all--anything in between is far worse than either actual choice.

Edit: Phael has a completely opposed opinion, and she may be right as well, particularly with how she phrased it--a lot depends on the group, how clear your "duties" should be to you from prior conversations, etc....stuff we're not really able to comment on with certainty. So, waffling, with a good group you may well be "ok," with a not-so-great group, or members of the good group even, you may lose some points you have to work to recover later. I'd still be inclined to do it, if it was expected, personally.
 

writerjohnb

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Show up ready to participate. It's actually a good thing that they're strangers, they won't mollycoddle you like friends and family do. I was a member of a group for years, showed up the first time as a brand new, untrained writer and took my lumps. Over the years, I took enough lumps to learn how to write.

Also, keep in mind that you get to give out a few lumps yourself.

BTW, in our group (disbanded now), we would bring in enough copies for everyone to read over a two week period, then critique round-robin style, encouraging discussion. Then pass out a new writing sample for the next session. It worked well for us and there was a lot of camaraderie.

JohnB
 

ralf58

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It really all depends on the group. Not all critique groups work the same way.

For instance, one person said:

It's my understanding that you pass out a chapter or so of your ms and the leader of the crit group (or you) reads it aloud.

All the critique groups I've been in have had the requirement that you distribute your work before the meeting so that people have time to actually think about it and not give an off-the-cuff response. In a group like that, you can't be critiqued the first time you show up.

Granted, it doesn't sound like the ones you're considering operate that way since they ask people to bring copies. But I just wanted to point out the critique groups don't follow some predetermined rule book. They vary a lot.

I think it would be entirely reasonable to attend one meeting just as an observer. But after that, you do really need to submit material if you're going back. It can be a problem when some group members attend, critique others, but never make themselves vulnerable. What they're really doing is trying to keep control over the process and that's not the point of the group.
 

Maryn

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I co-founded a critique group that's been going for 20 years. While we would allow a potential new member to observe, we also ask for a small writing sample they are prepared to discuss.

All we really want is 2 or 3 double-spaced pages. What we want it for is
  • To determine if the writer has grasped the basics of written English. In our experience, the writer who cannot punctuate dialogue, uses the wrong words often, doesn't differentiate to, too, and two, and other such mistakes is likely to absorb way, way more than his or her share of the group's time and attention.
  • To figure out if we are at a similar level of expertise in writing. Seriously, if s/he's way better than our best, we're not going to be of much help, are we?
  • To see if he or she is truly open to criticism of the writing they bring. A writer who's defensive or explains is not yet ready to listen. But that may come, in time.
  • To know ahead of time if his or her writing has an agenda--a religious, social, or political message which is inherent, especially if we disagree with it. We've had people whose work was anti-gay and another which attempted to eroticize violence.

We also like to socialize a bit with potential new members, to see if their eyes spin like pinwheels or if they're clearly 'off' in such a way that it could jeopardize our group.

So I'd take in a two-page something, if that's what they want. It doesn't have to be brilliant, just not awful.

Maryn, whose group is not at all scary
 

lorna_w

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If it were me (and I'm courageous and self-confident and probably too friendly to strangers and published), I still wouldn't bring anything. First I'd want to know if they are giving good critique, the level of polish the pieces were at (some groups have come to a consensus that very rough is okay, which would drive me bonkers, and so it wouldn't be the group for me), if they said sneering things about my genre in conversation, and much more. If I could get away with observing for all those things, I would do so.

I think of it the same way I think of dates. I'm not nervous about what they'll think of me. I'm doing an interview of sorts and assessing them, and if they aren't for me, no harm, no foul, but it's my standards being lived up to, or not, that is the issue foremost in my mind. Whether or not I live up to their standards is their responsibility to consider, and I don't do that work for them in the version of anticipatory jitters.
 

ralf58

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I'm doing an interview of sorts and assessing them, and if they aren't for me, no harm, no foul, but it's my standards being lived up to, or not, that is the issue foremost in my mind.

Excellent point.
 

BBBurke

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sandbag it

The first piece I ever put out for criticism was something I knew wasn't that good. It was a short story that never really worked out and I hadn't tried very hard to fix it. I thought it was bad, so I was completely expecting people to tear it apart. If they had, I wouldn't have minded.

But people pointed out some good things in it. And people pointed out some bad things. The good things were a great bit of positive reinforcement for what I did well. The bad things showed me that their critique was valuable - they caught the same problems I did.

It just took the pressure off that first time. Plus, it gave me some ideas to completely re-work the story and make it good.
 

juniper

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The description for them on the website says to bring copies and be prepared to read and discuss.

The critique group I used to belong to worked in this manner. It's been around for about 15 years and has a fluid membership because it's sponsored by a college. I left it recently due to a change in my schedule. Bring your work, you have at least 5 minutes to read, and then there will be a short discussion. If not many people showed up, then you could read longer.

My new critique group is set up so that files are sent out by email ahead of time and then we do our mark ups and bring those to the meeting. Then one by one, those who had submitted work get to have others talk about what they liked/didn't like and discuss. Or email them back, if unable to attend the meeting. This is more time consuming for me, although I think it leads to better critiques.

In each case, for the first meeting I showed up with nothing and mostly watched and gave small notes. And that was fine and the leaders said that's how it mostly happens.

How about if you bring something, just in case you feel simpatico with the group and brave and ready to show your stuff - if you get there and you're not feeling ready, then don't read it, just watch.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Yeah, I'm that writer who explains. I can't bear to be told I'm wrong when I'm not. I mean it's bad enough being told I'm wrong when I am....

So not going to face-to-face critique. Nobody deserves me.
 

JMC2009

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I haven't had a chance to look through these on my computer, but I've been glancing at them as I've had "downtime" at work and I really appreciate everyone's suggestions! I'll probably post some responses when I get home.

<3 to all for taking the time!
 

job

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If you feel uncomfortable commenting on other folks' work face-to-face and self-conscious showing your own WIP, maybe you'd be more comfortable with an on-line writers group?
 

JMC2009

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Is there nothing you could take with you which you could read and discuss? Something small, a short story, or a few pages of a chapter? You know, if you wanted to prepare for the critique group, you could prepare by asking those in chat to help you practice what you would talk about.

It also depends on the type of crit you are looking for. I know you do FF often here on AW, could you take one of the stories you are prouder of? I don't think all crits need to be end game types of things, but just samples that are indicative of your writing style.

I suppose I could take a piece of Flash. I was looking through them last night and have some that aren't half bad. They're not half good, but not half bad.


Honestly, Julie, there's no point in going if you're not going to join in. Screw your courage to the sticking point :).

Fake it till I make it? :) I guess that's worked for me so far at job interviews.

A good group leader (and group) will not be fazed in the least if you say you want to observe for a while before you share your work. It's quite reasonable that you need to learn the group's procedures and tenor first.

A group that has a problem with this may not be the group for you.

That was one thing that occurred to me, especially since I'm kinda shopping around; there's at least one other group I want to check out. Don't have time to do them both.

also, you're going to set a first impression as "chickenshit," "lazy," or any number of other less-than-stellar adjectives you have to then work twice as hard to rise above next time.

Ooh! You said the key words... I don't know if I could live with that sort of reputation.


It worked well for us and there was a lot of camaraderie.

JohnB


If you feel uncomfortable commenting on other folks' work face-to-face and self-conscious showing your own WIP, maybe you'd be more comfortable with an on-line writers group?

Job, it's partly the camaraderie that John mentioned that I'm wanting, in addition to the critiques. Don't get me wrong, I love y'all, but I'm almost to the point where I'm thinking I'd like to start to get to know the local writing scene, as scary as it may be.


I think it would be entirely reasonable to attend one meeting just as an observer. But after that, you do really need to submit material if you're going back. It can be a problem when some group members attend, critique others, but never make themselves vulnerable. What they're really doing is trying to keep control over the process and that's not the point of the group.

I have every intention of participating should I choose that critique group. It's just the diving head first part that I'm iffy about.


I think of it the same way I think of dates.

I'm looking for one of those too. :)


How about if you bring something, just in case you feel simpatico with the group and brave and ready to show your stuff - if you get there and you're not feeling ready, then don't read it, just watch.

Reasonable suggestion, kinda gives me the best of both worlds.

Yeah, I'm that writer who explains. I can't bear to be told I'm wrong when I'm not. I mean it's bad enough being told I'm wrong when I am....

So not going to face-to-face critique. Nobody deserves me.

I'm actually ok with criticism as long as I don't get frustrated... I almost got to that point at work the other day; I had done a bunch of paperwork wrong and I just wasn't understanding what I was supposed to be doing. But I've never had my writing critiqued in person, so I suppose I'll find out how I really am.

Thanks everyone for all the wonderful advice!
 

JMC2009

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Went to group #1:

Is three guys trying to get something going, have said that it's been a good sized group at times but they've had a hard time keeping people coming. Two of them were there tonight, and basically they read their stuff and didn't do a lot of actual critiquing. I took a flash piece with me, and then looked up one other on my phone.

Plugged Absolute Write, and one of the guys says he's going to check us out.
 

Buffysquirrel

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So did you feel you got anything out of the group? Worth going back?
 
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