The Historical Info-Dump

areteus

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My point isn't that your friend is wrong. It's that if you are an expert on the field, you will always be able to pick up mistakes that authors make. So trying to make your stories absolutely accurate is pointless - they just have to be good enough to carry a reader with a basic understanding of the period. MacDonald Fraser (who I admire hugely) is a good example of this.

No... he won't. Trust me. :)

Though it is mainly his disgust at earlier historians who seemed to ignore a lot of readily available primary sources in favour of merely quoting one secondary source which was biased. I think Cornwell has picked up on that source which means he is not really to blame for others not doing their jobs properly.

One of his comments has been around the way in which both sides (the French and the English) were adamant that the other side would win because they were 'better organised and equipped'.
 

Ito

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WW2 Historical Fiction

Since the time period is not too distant, I would have thought that the average reader knew more about the events of WW2 prior to Germany's attack on Poland. Based on my experience with friends and family, I found them quite ignorant of WW2 before Pearl Harbor. I try to fill in the historical events without going into an overly descriptive / lengthy passages. Using letters home / propaganda leaflets / graffiti, I hope to sneak information in that normally may jump out as "list of historical facts". Does that sound feasible without breaking the narrative?
 

areteus

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Actually, the more recent the history the less people know about it. Ok there are a lot of oral primary sources (i.e. old people who still remember it) around still but because more recent periods are not so well or commonly covered in school these periods are less well understood. I did up to WWI in compulsory history lessons (and then we mainly only covered the political reasons why it happened - Old Archie Duke shooting an Ostrich rather than any of the social stuff) and WWII was part of the higher level, non compulsory history.

That's changing now, of course, since one of the things I taught in Primary school was the 'life of John Lennon' (i.e. covering the social history of the 1950s - 1980s)*. More recent periods are being covered and done in a more empathic and social context.

*They say you are old when the policemen look young. Sod that, you are old when they teach a period you lived through in a god-damned history class! :)
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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I do pre-conquest reenactment as a hobby. My joke is that between the Norman invasion of England and the English invasion of Normandy, my history sucks.

Not *quite* so true any more. But for a while there it was pathetic.
 

Raula

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Your question so reminds me of a dilemma I had today. We're told to never lecture our pupils, even aged 17-18. We're supposed to tell them as little as possible and let them work out as much as possible. So I am (finally!) teaching an A-level lesson tomorrow on Henry VIII, something I could quite easily talk at them about, but I've designed it so they do all the discovering. I then went and observed an experienced teacher teach A-level Tudor History, and it was all her talking with occaisonal questions. Arrrrgh! So which way is right?!?

This is relevent to your question, though, I promise. You see, the best novels I have read have not info-dumped. They have focused on the individual's story and teased about historical events or details. This has led me to go on the internet and investigate for myself.
 

Literateparakeet

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Using letters home / propaganda leaflets / graffiti, I hope to sneak information in that normally may jump out as "list of historical facts". Does that sound feasible without breaking the narrative?

It seems reasonable to me, but it's hard to say until you do it. I suggest you write it and then evaluate it, and perhaps have a trusted beta look at it.

On a different note, I thought of this thread today during my Historical fiction class. We just finished, Anna of Byzantium by Tracy Barrett. They enjoyed it, but several said they wished it included more history. I tried to explain about info-dumps, but they were unconvinced.

Several felt that Devil's Arthimetic by Jane Yoen had more historical detail without info dump...but many felt it was too depressing. It is the overall favorite of the year though.

I was a bit surprised to hear teenagers say, "I wanted more history." Since one was my daughter, I was rather pleased. :)
 

mayqueen

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Great topic.

It's interesting how infodump can work in two different novels by the same author. You all brought up Bernard Cornwell. I write in the Anglo-Saxon period and I'm really into that history. I didn't find his Saxon Chronicles to be terribly infodumpy (if that's a word I can use). I found his interpretation of the period interesting, if different from mine. Recently, I was reading his Warlord Chronicles because he uses magic in a similar way that I do. I find them tediously infodumpy! And for no reason I can see, since much of the history is invented from different pieces.

In my own writing, I like to believe I find a middle ground. I want my readers to learn something about the time and place without feeling like I'm clobbering them upside the head with facts. (I teach statistics at the college level. I think my students feel that way enough about me.) But as some of you have already said, the infodump has to be appropriate for the character.
 

W.J. Cherf

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Through a camera's lens

While providing information through the eyes of a character is quite safe, another method is to do so as if through the lens of a camera. This allows the writer to describe and comment as well.

Perhaps the master of info dumping were Tom Clancy's early works as he actually made the failed bearing in the boggy wheel of the tank interesting somehow.
 

lilysea

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I don't read much historical fiction, even though I'm writing it. I prefer to read fiction from the actual period I'm interested in. I guess for this reason, I model my own writing on that, rather than other historical fiction, and that means that I don't info dump, but assume the reader is part of my world. If s/he misses something, that's probably okay though, because my stories don't revolve around historical events and figures so much as they revolve around personal matters of import to people in the period. So even if my readers don't know who the president was in 1880, they will get the concerns of a character who needs to get some money together by a certain deadline. How he gets the money may be laced with historical detail but the important point is that he needs the money.
 

Carmy

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One of my books takes place during the 4th Century in Cambria (Wales). The centuries leading up to when the story starts involves close to 400 years of Roman conquest and occupation of Britain. I gave the history as the first page and a half because it affects everything that takes place in the novel.

If a reader knows a bit about Roman occupation of Britain, he or she could easily skip the background because it contains the only info dump until the reader reached the Author's Note at the end. What happened during the 5th Century reflects what happened in the novel.

I read a fair number of history novels and I'd prefer the author be up front with me rather than try to squeeze bits of info dumps into conversations.

Reviews and readers tell me it works.
 

mayqueen

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I've seen that work very well, Carmy. Especially because I often read the historical notes before/as I read the novel.
 

Cornelius Gault

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So, I guess my idea of having the MC read from various encyclopedias in his newly-inherited mansion would be considered info-dumping.
 

RationalIdealist

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I agree with Donroc and don't mind a moderate amount of info dumping, providing it is accurate and is at an appropriate part of the novel. I do mind huge amounts of info dump when I feel the author is just showing off their knowledge. To me that is unprofessional and patronising.

Agree with Donroc and Shakesbear.
 

W.J. Cherf

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Follow J.K. Anderson's Lead

J.K. Anderson never did the "info dump" on her readers. Instead, she dropped this and that along the way of her famous adventures.

Given that most readers, in the US at least, read at an eighth grade level, I have found that Anderson's strategy is generally spot on.
 

Ian Nathaniel Cohen

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Info-dumping is A Bad Thing [just like as-you-know-bob dialogue], right? So why when I read so many historical novels I find the authors dumping pages upon pages of history lectures.

Personally, when I see this I jump the info dump and get on with the action.

When I write my Roman thrillers, I have an expectation that my readers will have already read a lot of historical fiction, and non-fiction. A good recent example was being given a lecture on the cursus honorem - I study Classical Studies/Ancient History, I know this very basic Roman prinicpal, thank you. :tongue

So, what are others personal feelings?

I like historical context, but there needs to be a balance between telling people what they need to know for the story to make sense and the pacing. I tend to have way too much of the first one, and I'll usually end up needing to take a chainsaw to it. (I've gotten into the habit of including glossaries and historical end notes at the end of my WIPs so that I don't have to waste time explaining certain things in the novel itself.)

My preferred way of presenting the exposition is to present it as the MC thinking about how they themselves have been impacted by past events or current social trends. This hopefully makes the exposition more relevant to the story and helps readers understand what has helped shaped the MC's character to get them to where they are now.
 

Ian Nathaniel Cohen

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I sometimes enjoy a good info-dump, if the info is interesting, and doesn't interfere with the story too much. But most of it, I suspect, is showing off: "I know all this stuff, see? This book may have flaws, but I've done my research!"

.....yyyyyyyyyyyyeah, this is something I really had to work on in early drafts of my stuff. And yes, it was showing off.

:gone:
 

ishtar'sgate

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The thing I like to keep in mind when writing historicals is that one of the key reasons readers choose historicals is for their unique period details.

Info-dumping can be so, so tempting. After all, you've done all that research. But it should be an organic part of the whole story and have a reason for being included.

My goal is to immerse the reader in the age and society so that they feel as if they are there. I don't want to force-feed readers historical details, I want readers to enjoy them as part of a good meal. Well, hopefully a good meal.
 
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Telergic

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The same techniques used in F&SF in books about alien and fantasy worlds work even better in historical fiction, since after all most people have some clue at least about most periods and places. So if you avoid all but the absolute bare minimum of exposition and work as much as possible of that minimum imperceptibly into the action and dialogue over the entire course of the book (instead of cramming it in up front, "as you know, this is how we find ourselves in the current situation"), I think you really should be fine.

I don't suggest this is easy, but it's been done successfully many times in both historical and speculative fiction. You don't see the author taking a chapter off to tell you how Napoleon rose from his position in revolutionary France to assume tyrannical power over the nation in O'Brian or Forester any more than Yeates has to tell you about the history of the development of the aeroplane or the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand for his WWI aviation novel/memoire. Perhaps there is a certain amount of infodumping in Robert Graves' historical novels about ancient Rome and Byzantium, but it is decently masked in the reminiscence of an old man telling a story about bygone days, and doesn't just stop the story for a history lesson.
 

Roxxsmom

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As a reader, I will often pick up a HF book about a period I know nothing about in order to learn more about it. If it interests me enough, then I'll get a non-fiction book and learn more. So I don't mind a little info-dump as long as it is done well.

I think in my writing, I will be really paranoid about info-dumps. So far though, I think I can weave whatever I need to directly into the story, no dumping. Fingers crossed.

I think this is a good approach. There are a lot of misconceptions about history, but it can be really cumbersome if the author steps out of the story, or out of the character, and gets on a soapbox about something. I write fantasy (though I read other genres too), and info dumping is a common pet there too, and of course there, it's not remotely possible for the reader to know anything about a completely made-up world or society in advance.

Sneaking intriguing dribbles of back story, world building and history, presented in character, seems like a good way to go. At least with a historic novel, there are real places the reader can go if they want to learn more about, say, medicine in Elizabethan England, or about Roman sanitation, or about the great Tulip bubble in 17th century Holland (I actually learned about this by first encountering it in a work of historic fiction--one of those things that was too bizarre to be true but was).
 

snafu1056

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Ok, I'll bite, what the heck was the great tulip bubble?