The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

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ironmikezero

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AFAIK, the only 1911 magazines without counter holes were early prototypes from various manufacturers (some by legitimate contract, and some via outright design piracy). John Moses Browning was the first to use the holes in his M1905 and M1907 designs (immediate predecessors of the M1911). Even the size of the holes can be an issue among collectors (red flags on fakes). Chase is right about the two-toned versions (see link).

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/mag_faq.htm
 
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Rosethorn

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So I have a handgun question:

What would be a small handgun? Like say for a woman that has extremely small hands (size of a normal sized 10 year old boy let's say). One that would fit one hand comfortably, but still be lethal enough if she needed to use it?

Thanks in advance!
 

Chase

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What would be a small handgun? Like say for a woman that has extremely small hands (size of a normal sized 10 year old boy let's say). One that would fit one hand comfortably, but still be lethal enough if she needed to use it?

Yours is kind of a layered question and perhaps needs several answers.

You might want to visit a few gun shops to find pistols or revolvers to fit your hands. Lots of ranges offer handgun rentals of varying sizes and calibers.

Any cartridge you choose -- from .22 rimfire up through 9MM and .38 Special/.357 Magnum -- are lethal given even average accuracy. You should be able to find a fit in a gun firing any in that range.

Here's one of many suggestions you'll get. Sturm-Ruger makes a revolver model SP-101. It comes in 8-shot .22, 6-shot .32, and 5-shot .38/.357. With the .32 and .38, you can begin with cartridges of lighter loads and work up to the magnums available in each caliber.

The reason I'm mentioning the SP-101 is that its grip system is perfect for hand-size extremes. Its internal grip isn't the standard frame. It's a single, sturdy post, around which you can order any size of custom-fitted after-market grip for anyone's hands.

Addition on Ruger's SP-101:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/GalleryItem.aspx?cid=22&gid=87&id=576

Whether you choose a revolver or semi-auto handgun, beware of small, lightweight guns in big calibers. They're on the market for concealed carry, but they can be hand-stingers that kick like mules.

You'll notice the SP-101 is stainless steel. It's small but has some heft to limit perceived recoil. I'll repeat the other perk for a revolver: They aren't so ammunition-sensitive and can use lighter loads for practice, then will handle maximum loads for defensive carry.
 
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Chase

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We have many expert women shooters here at AW, and experience makes the best experts. I'd hoped some others might chime in to answer.

Until then, there's another side to the handgun coin:

If your fancy goes to semi-automatic pistols, try the feel of a Walther PPK at a gun shop or range. It’s a slim handgun, and shooters with small hands say it’s not a problem to handle.

Once you find a load and brand that feeds well, you should probably stick with it, but PPKs are available in three calibers:

.22 LR (standard 10-shot magazines), .32 ACP (standard 8-shot magazines), and .380 ACP (standard 7-shot magazines).

These auto-loaders offer higher capacity (more cartridges ready) than the revolvers above, and many find magazines easier and faster to reload.

http://www.waltherpistols.com/category/41-Walther_PPK_Handguns.aspx
 

skylark

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I'm a rifle shooter rather than a pistol shooter, but on the occasions I've had a go with someone's target pistol, grip size has never been an issue. I mean, it hasn't fitted because it wasn't made for me, but it hasn't been unusably large either.

I'm probably about the size you're thinking of - my hands are the same size as my 12 year old son's, and he's small for his age.
 

Mark Moore

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Okay, this info won't be needed for a while, but, somewhere down the road in my short story series, MC #1 will buy a gun to use in her vampire-hunting. Since I personally despise guns and would never even consider owning one, I don't know any of the technical stuff. She'll be getting the gun out of reluntance; it'll be there for her as a weapon of last resort. I need to know what a beginner (18 years old) with no criminal record would be able to get in Florida (she'll be doing this legit, not through gun shows); she's not picky in the slightest. Also, I need to know of any bullets for that gun that are made out of silver (or at least have silver in them).
 

Drachen Jager

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No bullets are made out of silver, nor do any bullets have significant silver content in them. Silver is expensive and not a useful metal for forging bullets.

If I were to hunt Vampires and needed silver bullets I'd drill out a hollow-point, fill it with silver dust or silver nitrate, then use an epoxy resin to cap it. You'd lose a fair amount of accuracy, but if she's not a terribly good shot it doesn't matter much. I read an article once about a guy who set out to forge his own silver bullets. It was very difficult, inaccurate as hell and ended up messing up the barrel of his pistol quite badly. He felt that if he fired more than a dozen or so rounds there was a good chance he'd foul the barrel to the point where it could cause serious damage.

If she NEEDS silver bullets, her best bet would probably be a shotgun. She could load nearly anything into that, including jewelry if necessary. Handloading your own ammunition is fairly easy, if you can build IKEA furniture you can handload.

As for what she can get, permits etc. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Florida

See also: http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_fl.htm
 
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AKyber36

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BTW Akyber, before you ask. The holes in the magazines are so you can easily tell how full the mag is. You normally only see those holes on pistol mags because on a rifle or SMG the magazine sticks out and dirt would get in. Some rifle and SMG manufacturers have clear-ish plastic magazines for the same effect.

That's a newer idea and wouldn't be seen on most firearms over 20 or so years old.

So unless the guns are more recent - as in 2000-2012-recent, give or take - most magazines wouldn't have that feature? I can see how it'll help with a rifle or SMG, but on a pistol, would this newer feature only benefit during the refilling of the magazine? During a gun safety check? I can't see it being applicable during an intense firefight, for instance.
 

Drachen Jager

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So unless the guns are more recent - as in 2000-2012-recent, give or take - most magazines wouldn't have that feature? I can see how it'll help with a rifle or SMG, but on a pistol, would this newer feature only benefit during the refilling of the magazine? During a gun safety check? I can't see it being applicable during an intense firefight, for instance.

Actually I have been corrected, I guess most autos have some kind of feature to see how many rounds remain.

Yeah it only helps when the mag is out. No it would not make much difference in a firefight, you just shoot until the mag is empty and then switch. Same with a rifle or SMG, you'd only do it during a pause in the shooting (you can quickly pop the mag to check on a pistol too if you have a few seconds).

You can tell when you've fired the last round because the action stays back, then when the new mag is inserted the action slides forward either automatically or when you hit a catch.
 

Richard White

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At 18, they can buy a rifle and shotgun.

Have to be 21 to purchase a pistol.

And you can legitimately buy a weapon at a gun show. Why would you think you couldn't?

Personally, I'd recommend you look into something other than a gun for your character. I think without some serious research, you'd have issues writing any shooting scenes realistically. Perhaps look into a hand crossbow or a heavier one if you're wanting to use it as a rifle. Much less training for a crossbow than a regular bow and still has devastating power. Even easier to add silver-tipped bolts than to make silver-tipped bullets.



Okay, this info won't be needed for a while, but, somewhere down the road in my short story series, MC #1 will buy a gun to use in her vampire-hunting. Since I personally despise guns and would never even consider owning one, I don't know any of the technical stuff. She'll be getting the gun out of reluntance; it'll be there for her as a weapon of last resort. I need to know what a beginner (18 years old) with no criminal record would be able to get in Florida (she'll be doing this legit, not through gun shows); she's not picky in the slightest. Also, I need to know of any bullets for that gun that are made out of silver (or at least have silver in them).
 

Drachen Jager

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Yeah, I agree with Richard in that you can't realistically portray something with which you have no experience. Try getting a virgin to write a sex-scene.

Reading about it can help, there are lots of gun magazines online and if you read a bit every day it does sink in, but nothing replaces actual experience. I'm assuming joining the military is impractical in your case for research purposes ;) so why don't you go to a local gun-range where you can take a beginner class? It's not that expensive, and shooting is really quite fun.

I'm always dismayed by the number of people on this thread who plan on having fairly extensive firearm use in their novels but know essentially nothing. Again, the virgin and the sex-scene.... It's just bound to be terrible.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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In several states, an 18 year old can possess a handgun if furnished by a relative over 21, or if purchased privately within state. Federal law prohibits purchase, but not possession.

Gun shows are entirely legit, and all dealers run their purchases through NICS, as the law requires they do at any location.

A private citizen may sell a firearm to another private citizen, regardless of where they are (house, gun show, parking lot). Federal law prohibits "engaging in the business" of selling firearms. Occasional sales of personal property are not deemed "business," any more than a garage sale is considered to be a store.

If you are obviously antithetical to firearms and not comfortable with the subject, the scene will not be believable.

~~~

One issue with smaller handguns is greater recoil. My pocket .380, with 40% the power of the loads in my 1911 .45, recoils harder, and my wife can't shoot it. She can easily handle the .45.

My 14 year old daughter can comfortably shoot .357 magnum out of a Ruger Security Six 4", but can't shoot the .45.

There's also an issue with cycling the slide to charge the weapon.

Smith and Wesson, Ruger and Taurus among others make compact revolvers for smaller hands. Grip material and shape also play a big part. Females often prefer round butt revolvers due to finger geometry.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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By the way, if anyone is within reasonable drive of Indianapolis, I get test guns in from manufacturers every month, and have an extensive collection. I'm happy to host familiarization or research shooting if you buy the ammo. My preferred range is at Camp Atterbury. For heavy weapons (Browning 1919 belt fed, Ultramag .50) it's two hours to either Knob Creek or Wabash.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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RevolverFam.jpg


Revolvers come in a variety of sizes, from the .32 rimfire (1880s) to the 1865 Remington .44 (one original, one repro)

Pistols.jpg


I actually should have more autos. Yes, the PPS43 and the AR15 here are "Handguns" in that they do not have stocks, have barrels under 16" and overall lengths under 26".
 

Richard White

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Michael,

I'm not what you'd call in reasonable driving distance, but if I ever head to a convention out that way (maybe GenCon next year). I'll certainly take you up on it. I'll have to bring along my baby - 1959 Walther P-38. Still fires a tight group for a 50+ year old pistol.
 

MoLoLu

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There's also an issue with cycling the slide to charge the weapon.

This is pretty damning to be honest.

When my godfather first showed me his pistols (I was around 16) the only slide I could pull back and release was on a M9. I don't remember what the other two ere precisely but some some .45 and a SIG. I couldn't make them budge.

My hands felt raw after several tries on the M9 too - sort of like trying to twist a cap off a bottle. I couldn't imagine just picking a gun like that up and using it.

Rifles on the other hand I never had that issues with on the two occasions I fired them (17 & 18). I don't think my physical strength increased in that time though.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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When my godfather first showed me his pistols (I was around 16) the only slide I could pull back and release was on a M9. I don't remember what the other two ere precisely but some some .45 and a SIG. I couldn't make them budge.

My wife can just charge an M9, but she is in need of another round of wrist surgery.

The cycle weight will depend on the slide weight, spring tension (Which depends on anticipated cartridge power), and ergonomics.
 

Rosethorn

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Thank you everyone for the info. I'm not writing about it extensively, it's more an off-hand mention in the book, as guns are not her primary form of defense, but I wanted to be as accurate as possible. I do plan on getting more familiar with guns as in future books, I'll have characters who do use guns as a primary weapon, but I wouldn't dare write those scenes until I do have a lot more familiarity. :)

Staci
 

Summonere

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So I have a handgun question:

What would be a small handgun? Like say for a woman that has extremely small hands (size of a normal sized 10 year old boy let's say). One that would fit one hand comfortably, but still be lethal enough if she needed to use it?

Thanks in advance!

As Chase mentioned, many are the possibilities, so here are some (there are many more), in no particular order.

North American Arms: This page should display a bundle of their offerings.

Kel Tec: This page features a smallish gun and offers in the left navigation pane links to still more.

Ruger LCP: this is Ruger's copy of a Kel Tec product.

Ruger LCR: this is Ruger's Lightweight Compact Revolver

Ruger LC9

Kahr Arms PM9

Kahr Arms P380

Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 380

Smith & Wesson M&P Compact 9mm

Smith & Wesson Model 36

Beretta Nano 9mm

Beretta Bobcat .25 Auto / .22 Long Rifle

Beretta Tomcat .32ACP

Beretta PX4 Storm Compact 9mm

Walther PPS 9mm

Walther PK380

Walther PPK

Springfield Armory EMP 9mm
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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As Chase mentioned, many are the possibilities, so here are some (there are many more), in no particular order.

Just keep in mind some of those pocket rockets HURT to shoot. Smaller guns have less mass to soak up the recoil impulse. They delivery that impulse through a smaller grip. Grip shape and angle also matter, on a person by person basis.

In my revolver pan, the Taurus 817 at the 7 o'clock position, a gray stainless snub, has ribbed rubber grips and is quite comfortable. It's a .38 Special. Across from it at 4 o'clock with the small black grip is a Colt Police Positive (1923) also in .38 Special. It stings to shoot, despite being a bit heavier and longer.
 

Summonere

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Just keep in mind some of those pocket rockets HURT to shoot.

I've often heard that, but have not experienced it firsthand, though the last dinky guns I shot were a Smith & Wesson Airweight .38, with a horrendously gritty, heavy trigger, and an all-steel Kahr MK9, which was excellent (and 7oz. heavier) by comparison. Which of the pistols from the list, by the way, are considered to impart abusive recoil (aside, perhaps, from the one, “with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window,” ha ha)?
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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It's going to depend on several factors on a case by case basis. I've shot a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum with +P+ loads and enjoyed it. In rifles, I like shooting Mosin-Nagants in a T shirt.

My Grendel .380 stings a little. The Steyr GB, which I've heard described as a "very moderate" 9mm, hits the base of my thumb at an angle that causes excruciating pain.

However, any light, small-gripped 9mm is going to tend toward the heavy side, especially given the fast recoil impulse of 9mm.

It's worth testing several if you can, or asking opinions from someone similar in stature to your character, or even choosing to describe the recoil of certain ones as a problem just as a complication.

Generally, .32 and smaller will not be problematic, .380 and larger can be. Though an NAA Mini in .22 Mag is noticeable.

Also, my 1882 Second Model Smith and Wesson .38S&W (1 o'clock, nickel finish with black bakelite grips) is just the right shape for the trigger guard to ding my knuckles. There's not a lot of recoil, but it's like rapping your knuckles with a ruler.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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I am currently effecting repairs on a stamped AK47. The AK is not the be all and end all its fanclub (who often haven't actually used one) make it out to be. But it does have some amusing features, especially as far as maintenance.

"The operating rod is stuck in my AK. What do I do?"
"Hit the charging handle with a hammer."

"The hammer is not engaging the sear surface in operation. What do I do?"
"Hit the top rails with a hammer."

"The bolt carrier has trouble going into battery. What do I do?"
"Remove the action spring, place the bolt carrier right at the sticking point, then seat it with a hammer."

"The gas tube retaining lever won't disengage for takedown. What do I do?"
"Hit it with a hammer."

"I have an aftermarket lower handguard I can't get seated properly. What do I do?"
"Hit yourself in the head with a hammer for attempting to modify Mikhail's rifle. Then, hit the handguard with a hammer."
 
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