Hounding After Hours

Ah, see - I'm focusing (for a part, at least) on female characters, and how women are perceived in the horror genre. Not female creators. I get a pass on that, surely.

And I really want to take issue with some films which are horrid representations of women.

I'm basing all of this on what I read on the WiHM website and the blog posts I read last year, not so much on someone else's argument or experience.

I myself don't see a bias.

If a reader choses to a book by a male over a book by a female, that's their preference, much like some women preferring a male gyn to a female. I personally think that's rather self-limiting, but that's their choice.

Why is it their choice? Hell, I don't know. Maybe they like more of a King type horror and the only female horror titles they've seen are LKH and Anne Rice - neither of which are of a King style.

Want to change their mind? Show them a good book, one that makes you want to look under the bed before getting into and maybe sleep with a light on, written by a female. Just like you'd recommend a girlfriend to a great male doctor you know when her female doctor moves/leaves the practice/whatever. Shouting in her face about how biased she's being or whatever isn't going to get her to change her mind. Show her. Prove it to her.

Hell, prove it to me.

Not the gyn doc. I'm good there, thanks.

LaurieD said:

Blog hops, loud posts about a perceived bias in the industry, etc just sound like a lot of noise that I can't wait to stop and wish I could mute.

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But it's not merely a perception. There is a bias, and not just in horror. And a discussion has to happen, or else nothing will get done.

LaurieD said:

That's my challenge to everyone who thinks the deck is somehow stacked against women who produce creative horror - instead of shouting about what you think about it, produce some bit of creative horror this month that knocks the horror industry on its collective ass.

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But what if, because of the group you're in, you automatically start at a disadvantage? Then not only do you have to be good enough to get past the normal hurdles, you have to be extra good to get past the other ones.

Yes, there need to be actions to go with the words. I'm with you on that one. But saying the discussion itself is pointless?

That's like saying the "I Have a Dream" speech doesn't count because it's just words.

LaurieD said:

What's poignancy have to do with it?

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Because (I think) why bother talking about anything if it's not relevant. That's all I meant. And sometimes it takes talking about things to decide if they're relevant. To you, or to the world.

I still keep coming back to the same conclusion.

If a girl wants to run with the boys, she needs to lace up her sneaks and get off the porch. Talking about it isn't going to make it happen. Talking about how unfair or biased she sees the run isn't going to make it happen. Talking about how hard it is, likewise, not going to make it happen.

There ya go.

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LaurieD said:

A lot of the noise sounds a lot like a kid trying to convince a parent that they really, really will get A's and B's on their report card, just please, please, please let them have their video games back/sleep over at someone's house on a school night/stay up an extra hour.

Doesn't do a thing for me.

Stop talking about it and prove it.

A kid wants a new/extended privilege? Then they need to show me they're ready by mastering their present responsibilities.

Women are getting overlooked in the industry? Show me some books that don't jump tracks from horror to romance, then into some weird LKH mish-mash of the two and stop waving the discrimination flag.

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I think you are focused too narrowly on one thing and thinking that IT'S what WIHM, or celebrating women in horror, is about. It's not all about discrimination and "running with the boys".

I don't want to run with the boys. I want to run by myself. But I'm a woman, and "myself" is composed of my experiences growing up a woman. It affects everything I do.

I'm also affected by growing up an only child, a Washintonian, and...lots of other things. And I wouldn't have a problem celebrating how those sub groups play out in writing/film making etc. either.

LaurieD said:

I myself don't see a bias.

Hell, prove it to me.

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Walk into a bookstore.

Pick a genre.

Note the number of male authors vs female authors.



You can do this, btw, for a whole host of genres, as I mentioned earlier. Peruse the suspense section: mostly men. Urban Fantasy? Women. Sci-fi: Men (shifting, some, but still the norm).

When you have a noticeable trend like that, there have to be factors for it. Is gender bias the only cause? No, likely not. But does it contribute? Sure it does. Maybe not even at the publishing stage, but simply where a woman writer, starting out, is encouraged to direct her talents (or vice versa. Imagine being a guy telling his parents he wants to write romance. My parents may not have freaked out, but several of my friends' parents would have.)

It's not hard to notice, once you're looking.

soapdish said:

I'm also affected by growing up an only child, a Washintonian, and...lots of other things. And I wouldn't have a problem celebrating how those sub groups play out in writing/film making etc. either.

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Question: how does one differentiate, terminologically, from a Washingtonian (state) and a Washingtonian (DC)?

Just curious, and figured you might know.

BigWords said:

And I really want to take issue with some films which are horrid representations of women.

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Likewise with men in commercials on tv.

Or on tv in general.

Check out the romance section.

slcboston said:

Question: how does one differentiate, terminologically, from a Washingtonian (state) and a Washingtonian (DC)?

Just curious, and figured you might know.

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It's the G. I refuse to use it. That's how I differentiate.

LaurieD said:

Check out the romance section.

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I mentioned that earlier.

Ergo the need for a "Men in Romance" month, too.




Although that would probably out a fair number of pseudonominous authors.

soapdish said:

It's the G. I refuse to use it. That's how I differentiate.

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This like the "e" in your nachos?

slcboston said:

This like the "e" in your nachos?

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Yes.

Look, it just makes more sense.

What is it exactly you guys see happening that I don't?

There aren/t as many female horror writers published as males?

Why?

Could it be that women - in an incredibly broad and average point of view - are busy managing their stereotypical lives?

Like I pointed out earlier - women argue over who has it harder --married versus single and every assimilation of kids vs without. I have yet to see a single male-perspective argument on the same topic.

BigWords said:

That caption would be precisely a thousand times funnier if it mentioned Two Girls And A Cup.

Whatever you do, DO NOT GOOGLE THAT.

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Believe me, I won't. Google is a dangerous thing when searching for random words.

slcboston said:

Question: how does one differentiate, terminologically, from a Washingtonian (state) and a Washingtonian (DC)?

Just curious, and figured you might know.

Click to expand...

soapdish said:

It's the G. I refuse to use it. That's how I differentiate.

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I thought it was their use of the "R" in "Washingtonian". Oh, and the fact that I try to ignore everything east of the Rockies.

slcboston said:

But it's not merely a perception. There is a bias, and not just in horror. And a discussion has to happen, or else nothing will get done.



But what if, because of the group you're in, you automatically start at a disadvantage? Then not only do you have to be good enough to get past the normal hurdles, you have to be extra good to get past the other ones.

Yes, there need to be actions to go with the words. I'm with you on that one. But saying the discussion itself is pointless?

That's like saying the "I Have a Dream" speech doesn't count because it's just words.

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Oh, no. The obstacles of being published are not the same as the obstacles those of African heritage face. Not even close.

Saying that I'm discrediting one of the most inspiring speeches in history is insulting.

It seems, while several have repped me saying my points are valid, my opinion isn't being considered but picked apart.


Maybe I don't see the industry stacked against me. Maybe the challenge to prove myself is how I see life.

That's great, Laurie. Truly. You have the talent, the passion and the work ethic you need to succeed. I wish you the best of luck.

But if I want to howl at the moon every now and then. If I want to try to bring a little bit of attention to women in horror fiction and film. If it's fun and rewarding for me, then what the fuck is wrong with that? I'm am so NOT the strong and silent type. And I reserve the right to opine as loudly as I choose. You just see it as pointless noise. Fair enough. Tune out. It's not that hard.

Nope. It's not.

I made a mistake.

For those I've offended by stating my opinion, I must apologize.

ETA: I should have exercised restraint and censored myself.

Stupid is, as was recently pointed out to me, a strong word.

Do I think any of you are stupid. No. No more than I think the women who bark about how hard it is to walk in their shoes are stupid.

I wish you all the best of luck making WiHM whatever you want it to be for yourselves.

I'm out.

ETA: Will I be back later when my temper isn't boiling over?

I don't know yet. My figurative shoes have a lot of walking to do and aren't particularly comfortable at the moment and I don't see that changing in the near future, leaving me without enough hands to bring with me my usual sarcasm and Polyanaism.

As a woman writing horror, I get a certain kind of disgust from other women in my life that I wouldn't get if I were a man. Until I read Seanan McGuire's FEED I was honestly stuck comparing myself with the successful men of the genre, because all the women who wrote horror that I knew of had been dead for a century.

If spending one month recommending awesome female writers, movies, directors, and horror movies with fantastic female actresses can put another girl like I was in touch with a book, or movie, or play that makes her feel like it's okay to be herself, and that she doesn't have to feel like a girl trying to forge a path where she's unwanted, that's ace. That's why I participate in the Women in Horror month.

But if you want to take the time to discuss the greater issues, that's fine, too. And anyone who doesn't see why this isn't important hasn't received THAT look enough. The one that people give you when you say you're a writer and they clearly expect you, because you are small and cute, to say your genre is romance and instead you say horror.

It's an issue in society. It's an issue amongst professionals at conferences. And it's not one we often talk about, because really, it gets dull. One month? Not a bad time frame.

Moving on to more interesting topics, I'm on a ghost kick again. I need more ghost movies. I swear there are like four good ones, in the history of movies.

BriMaresh said:

because you are small and cute, to say your genre is romance and instead you say horror.

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Actually, what's worse is when you say "horror" and they nod but still think it's romance?

I get a lot of: Oh, like Twilight. (note the non question mark, they say it like they're confirming it, not asking you if that's what you mean. )

I swear there are like four good ones, in the history of movies.

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So...share?

I vote Stir of Echoes as best.

GHOST films. Seriously???

Best is obviously The Shining.

(although I have a soft spot for Beetlejuice)

Stir of Echoes, GhostShip, The Shining, Rose Red, Sixth Sense, but that's about all I can come up with. I know I must be missing some, but I can't come up with any great ones, and I'm in that sort of ghosty type mood.

When I was a kid, Lady in White scared the crap out of me.

ETA: Hell, still does now. Though I think it's because it triggers the old fear from when I watched it as a kid.

I liked The Others. Creepy and atmospheric, rather than terrifying.

I really like the look of the movie "Mama", but I don't think I'd ever sleep again after watching it. :/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_(2013_film)