Safe sex

There are boilerplate statements that aren't so forced - but you may want to be blunt about it. These are fantasies in contemporary settings, not safe sex manuals.

IDK about some of the California and UK porn laws applying to prose fiction as well as video. Anyone else know if this is an issue?

I know that, since your protags are still in high school, Amazon and other vendors may take issue with 'underage' sex. You may want to cheat and shift things up to college age, or make sure readers know the main characters are over eighteen.

alexp336 said:

I've not published books, but I've posted my writing online, and on a couple of occasions I've been dinged by readers for what they see as a lack of responsibility on my part about safe sex.

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Fiction is fiction, not a lesson on how to live a responsible life. (If it were, we'd have far more novels about characters who recycle and far fewer about characters who fall in love and live happily ever after with creepy controlling stalker vampires billionaires love interests.) You do what's true for the characters, and it's not your responsibility even to put a disclaimer about unsafe sex practices on it. (I mean, you can, but I don't see disclaimers about the importance of responsible gun ownership, the health hazards of cigarette smoking, etc.)

I wouldn't think that California's condom law for porn would stretch to prose fiction—it's a worker protection law, not a "let's not have viewers think sex without condoms is okay" law. I don't know anything about UK porn laws.

If my characters are responsible modern guys in the normal modern world (not fantasy etc) they generally follow safer sex practices. I just describe it that way. Which means condoms. If they are reasonably intelligent and for some reason they use unsafe practices I have them worry about it. I consider that just being realistic.

A character having unprotected sex with people he just met and not even thinking about it.... well, I would question his intelligence and/or ethics and that will distract me from the story. It's as bad as those straight romances where the girl has unprotected sex, does nothing about it afterwards (hello, Plan B?), and is somehow *surprised* when she gets pregnant FFS.

veinglory said:

If my characters are responsible modern guys they generally follow safer sex practices. I just describe it that way. Which means condoms. If they are reasonably intelligent and for some reason they use unsafe practices I have them worry about it. I consider that just being realistic.

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This...and I've had editors add them in even when the characters were in love at the end of the book. If it's not added, then the "talk" has to happen (this is house rule for some publishers, and they have their reasons...probably high up there is because they get tons of angry emails when protection isn't used or addressed). This is only an issue with contemporary stories (from what I've seen). Sure, you're writing fiction, but with contemporary it's a "realistic" fantasy for the reader.

Adding a condom can be sexy or it can be as quick as a few words in your story without drawing the reader out of the scene. I've never had a reader complain because I used a condom in any book.

Maryn said:

My story inspired someone to imitate the character's experience, and he ended up in the ER with an embarrassing predicament which was doubtless shared among staff for years. He required surgery (for removal) and stitches (for damage caused by his attempts). Luckily, he laid no blame on me, but I felt terrible about it--especially when his telling what happened triggered responses which said that lots of readers imitated this or that act from my stories because it was hawt.

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Oh crap. That scares the life out of me: how far some can take the story.

On the condom issue, I write for the smaller taboo market, but will still get a polite nudge off the editor over condom use (or why it's not being used).

alexp336 said:

Not with vegetables. Well, maybe a particularly smooth-talking carrot when I was younger, but I was naive and easily led...

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In the original draft of Genesis, it was a carrot that visited Eve. The publishers said, "Nobody's gonna buy a seductive carrot." The publishers, as often happened back then, were heterosexual men with no first-hand experience with carrots, outside of stew.

The potential of being imitated is why my BDSM-oriented characters (what few there are) have discussions about safe words and limits to the point that one Goodreads reviewer complained that one of my books "read like a BDSM how-to manual instead of a hot story." I couldn't help laughing at that one; I would far rather have a gripy review than have someone in real life assault their partner because they assume force and lack of consent = BDSM.

For the same reason--and because as an erotic romance author I'm kinda a prude--my characters almost always practice safer sex. If they don't practice it, they at least discuss it and either have a reason not to practice (I have a novel where one hero is a sorcerer; not only does disease not effect him, but he can use magic for lube...) or agree *together* that they're choosing not to. Sometimes their reason for not wanting to practice safer sex is...unwise ("I'm too drunk to care, just fuck me" and "Okay, I'm drunk too, so let's do it"), but at least they've consulted each other.

It isn't so much a matter of responsibility to the reader for me, though. I write what I feel right about, and I feel right including discussions of safer sex, safewords, etc.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's been extremely helpful.

My books are all erotic thriller fiction. I don't describe safe sex, just as I don't warn readers not to shoot people in the head, gut them with a sword, or blow things up, which are also described in detail in the same books.

My responsibility its to entertain and give value for money, not hold their hands. I would throw away a book if it kept nagging me to be careful, whether it be about condoms, SSA, or RACK.

Like I said, for me it's about being true to the characters, whether it's safe sex or BDSM (or anything else). The world is full of all kinds of people. If I have a character who's normally conscientious and careful, he'll be the same when it comes to sex. If I have a character who's reckless, he'll be reckless about sex. Sometimes, like in real life, reckless sex has consequences; sometimes it doesn't. Whether it does or not in a given story depends on what and who the story's about. (I don't have any interest in limiting myself to only characters who are responsible and conscientious in bed.)

With BDSM, if my characters discuss a safe word, it's because the safe word is important to the story (or the characters). If they discuss limits, it's because they're the type of people who discuss limits (or because it's important to the story). I'm not a fan of "bad" BDSM in fiction, but I don't define "bad" BDSM as "not illustrative of the most considerate, respectful way to approach BDSM." To me "bad" BDSM either involves paper-thin characters doing by-the-numbers or laughably unbelievable scenes, or it's the stuff that makes me cringe at how blatantly it dehumanizes one or more of the participants. (There's a difference between a story that's self-aware about the dehumanization it presents—these can be powerful—and those that merely dehumanize for sport. In the latter, I'm not even sure the author realizes s/he's done what she's done!)

I feel bad for the guy who ended up in the ER after trying a hot scene from Maryn's story, and I feel bad that Maryn therefore feels responsible in some way for it. It was her turnip after all (or rather a mutant new-world version of her turnip). On the other hand, we aren't responsible for the actions people decide to take. Stephen King isn't responsible for the guy who brought guns to school and caused a 9-hour standoff after reading "Rage"--that guy took that on himself, and he likely would have done something crazy without that book's existence. Ozzy isn't responsible for the girl who committed suicide--she likely would have done it even if "Suicide Solution" had never been recorded. Maryn's reader might have tried some other risky thing he'd read in a story or online (there are so many crazy, risky sex things presented online in first-person accounts that are either complete fiction or done by crazy but extremely lucky to still be alive people)--he could have wound up with far worse than an emergency room visit.

I do feel that it's good to not promote racism or sexism or all-around unredeemable assholism in fiction. It's good take care to not re-enforce stereotypes and to be sensitive of the types of people you're portraying. But I don't feel we have to take the step beyond that to turning our stories into safe-for-amateurs portrayals of whatever it is we're portraying. Mind you, I say we don't have to; if that's what a writer wants to accomplish in his/her stories, I'm absolutely not saying s/he shouldn't. Write how you see fit!

I agree. Characters are as unique as the people populating this planet - some practice safer sex, some don't. The characters dictate how the story unfolds. They also face consequences for taking chances...or not. Either way, there's an end to the story. I've simplified it, but I think the duty we have is to tell the story. Or not, if you don't like what your characters do. I've tried to make certain characters behave, and that never, ever works!

The points you've made, Zoe, are amazing.

Champagne Cupcake said:

The points you've made, Zoe, are amazing.

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That's what the "X" stands for: Amazing.

Oh wait.

Zoe X. Rider said:

Like I said, for me it's about being true to the characters, whether it's safe sex or BDSM (or anything else). The world is full of all kinds of people. If I have a character who's normally conscientious and careful, he'll be the same when it comes to sex. If I have a character who's reckless, he'll be reckless about sex. Sometimes, like in real life, reckless sex has consequences; sometimes it doesn't. Whether it does or not in a given story depends on what and who the story's about. (I don't have any interest in limiting myself to only characters who are responsible and conscientious in bed.)

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I agree with this. I prefer to write about characters who feel real, and not all characters are likely to have a discussion about safewords, for example, even if they care about safety (and for that matter, not all real-life people use safewords, and not everyone finds them necessary). Also, when writing about characters who are in established relationships, things like negotiation may not come up as much.

I'm not a fan of "bad" BDSM in fiction, but I don't define "bad" BDSM as "not illustrative of the most considerate, respectful way to approach BDSM." To me "bad" BDSM either involves paper-thin characters doing by-the-numbers or laughably unbelievable scenes, or it's the stuff that makes me cringe at how blatantly it dehumanizes one or more of the participants. (There's a difference between a story that's self-aware about the dehumanization it presents—these can be powerful—and those that merely dehumanize for sport. In the latter, I'm not even sure the author realizes s/he's done what she's done!)

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I have to take exception to this a bit. "Bad" BDSM like you describe bothers me when it seems like the author is trying to present it as a realistic or ideal relationship. But otherwise, I think it's a matter of personal preference. Just because someone enjoys unrealistic fantasies sometimes doesn't mean they don't have experience with real BDSM or understand the difference between reality and fiction. Just like some people enjoy roleplaying degrading scenarios with a consenting partner, some people enjoy reading about characters in situations like that that aren't roleplay. I write some stuff that I know isn't realistic and wouldn't be good in real life, but it's a fantasy.

I feel bad for the guy who ended up in the ER after trying a hot scene from Maryn's story, and I feel bad that Maryn therefore feels responsible in some way for it. It was her turnip after all (or rather a mutant new-world version of her turnip). On the other hand, we aren't responsible for the actions people decide to take. Stephen King isn't responsible for the guy who brought guns to school and caused a 9-hour standoff after reading "Rage"--that guy took that on himself, and he likely would have done something crazy without that book's existence. Ozzy isn't responsible for the girl who committed suicide--she likely would have done it even if "Suicide Solution" had never been recorded. Maryn's reader might have tried some other risky thing he'd read in a story or online (there are so many crazy, risky sex things presented online in first-person accounts that are either complete fiction or done by crazy but extremely lucky to still be alive people)--he could have wound up with far worse than an emergency room visit.

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I agree. It's a scary thing to think about, and it would be horrible to have someone get hurt because they tried something we wrote about. But I don't think it's feasible to predict what people might do. It's not like we're writing how-to books. And I feel like trying too hard to make sure no one can get the wrong idea from your writing can end up alienating your target audience.

I don't have a problem with unrealistic fantasies depicted in fiction, as long as the story makes them work. I once read the most awesome story that had a man being raped by Pan and another being raped (savagely) by a unicorn. It was such a great story, and I totally bought into the story world (which was essentially our world with fantastical elements). I've enjoyed stories about people being buried alive, essentially forever, with oxygen and liquid food being supplied by tubes, people turned into living statues, and all kinds of crazy, improbable things. (And I have a pretty improbable story in my head that I hope to write someday if I ever figure out where it's actually going.)

I enjoyed those stories because the authors made them work within in the context of the story's world (whether it was a world that doesn't really exist or whether it was presented as our real world). When I say "laughably unbelievable scenes," I mean that the author didn't even try to make me buy into them, not "could never happen in real life."

And yes, there are really good degrading stories, and then there are the ones where the authors seem to be clueless about the fact that they've actually written degrading stories, and instead of exciting me they make me uncomfortable.

And all of this applies to fiction in general, not just BDSM erotica.

Of course, when it comes to smut, if someone's just looking to get off on their kink, it often doesn't matter whether it's well written or whether they can buy into it—just that it fits their kink—which is why there's so much smut available, free and paid. And, fortunately, some percentage of it is really good.

Zoe X. Rider said:

I enjoyed those stories because the authors made them work within in the context of the story's world (whether it was a world that doesn't really exist or whether it was presented as our real world). When I say "laughably unbelievable scenes," I mean that the author didn't even try to make me buy into them, not "could never happen in real life."

And yes, there are really good degrading stories, and then there are the ones where the authors seem to be clueless about the fact that they've actually written degrading stories, and instead of exciting me they make me uncomfortable.

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Ah, I definitely agree with this. And yeah, that's what I meant by stories that are trying to look realistic but aren't. When a relationship has been set up as being completely unrealistic and unsafe by real-life standards, having them mention safewords or something can actually make it more, rather than less, harder to buy. Like you say, it makes it seem like the writer doesn't really understand what they're writing about or see the implications.

But I've also run into the idea occasionally that real BDSMers only like realistic stories where everyone does stuff properly, and that I have to disagree with.

DancingMaenid said:

When a relationship has been set up as being completely unrealistic and unsafe by real-life standards, having them mention safewords or something can actually make it more, rather than less, harder to buy.

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Haha! You're right—I've seen that, and it does.

Maryn said:

What, you've never imitated what your read or saw in an erotic story?

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Lol... I wish I had the balls too!! It looks damn good on paper, but in reality? Knowing me, I'd end making an ice dildo and go Dumb, Dumb, & Dumber and get fingers or tongue frozen to certain parts, just as the in-laws turn up.