What would you guys want to see in epic and high fantasy?

Cute scottish-fold kittens.

I'm not sure if it would make for a good story, but I would personally be blown away is an epic battle that was forming between the forces of 'good and evil' would simply never happen because both sides reached an amicable agreement/peace treaty beforehand. I mean, we've seen so many epic battles already, the most surprising one would be one that never happens.

Another fun thing for me was if the main character or whatever starts off as a great warrior who solves everything at the end of a sword, only to forsake violence for nonviolent solutions at the end. I actually a comedy fantasy serial like that once (need to find the name again) where the main character was an cursed undead warrior trying to reach Valhalla, only to forsake violence at the end.

Also, a demonic race where the females aren't sex objects. I can understand gender dimorphism, but seriously.

New environments, plain and simple. Im tired of the Tolkien-esque, northern European thing. Every culture has its equivalents of kings, knights, wizards, monsters, rogues, barbarians, etc. You wouldnt even have to radically alter the familiar formulas of fantasy. Just adapt them to another cultural context. True, it means more work because there's research involved, but hey, sometimes writing is work.

A fresh take on unicorns.

Dinosaurs. I'm working on this.

A fantasy foodie. I don't mean an epic fantasy where the author includes more and more details about food in lieu of story; we already have a series for that, thanks. I mean one where the food is an integral part of the plot. Maybe the heroine is head cook in the castle, or the hero is a food taster. Either way, there should be mouth-watering fantastical feasts.

A desert setting or a High Arctic setting. Or a convincing underwater setting. Convincing for me = humanoid characters adapted for swimming are not likely to have full breasts or long flowing hair.

Machines of any kind.

Hive minds. Which are not automatically evil or wrong because they lack individuality.

#1. Creative settings that aren't recognizably a real historical place. I'm talking wizards fighting airships from levitating castles sort of creative. Why is this so hard to find? It's called speculative fiction, so speculate already.

#2. Action/adventure based plots, as opposed to the intrigue that seems to be so popular.

#3. Established familial relationships. Way too many stories focus on creating a new romance instead of exploring the many other kinds of relationships that exist. New romances may seem exciting, but they're really simplistic compared to the levels of dysfunction, attachment, and complexity which form in 30 years with your parents or a 20-year marriage.

Good quest fantasy. A lot of the quest fantasy out there is fun because I like quests, but it's really simple stuff. I'd like to see more depth and stronger characters.

I would love to read a heroic fantasy where the good guys win... but they all die in the process. I love stories about self-sacrifice. I am sick of stories where the good guy never makes a single mistake and wins every fight without so much as a scratch. The idea that there is a cost to war, that achieving something on the order of saving a kingdom or world comes at a price, is often missing. Way too many fantasy stories lack any real sense of drama because it is clear from the beginning everyone is going to have a happy ending.

Well, mainly good writing, which is unfortunately not that common in this sub-genre. But unusual settings aren't a bad draw, e.g. Bear's fantastic Mongolia in the Eternal Sky.

Unique and original conceits are nice too -- and just to continue to cite it as an example, in Bear's extended trilogy, the sky changes -- sun(s), moon(s), and sky color -- to reflect which culture or god is in possession of a given region. That little trick can be exploited a dozen ways to present thematic and contextual information of all kinds.

A good epic fantasy where the characters you are introduced to are neither the hero nor the villain but live on the periphery, where you never meet the hero or the villain but you know that something epic is happening.

I like themes of duty and honor. But not cardboard cutouts of the same. I want to see people struggle with the higher ideals. Sometimes failing, but ever striving.

If you want a historical example, somebody like the prophet Jonah. Not for the whale part, but for the running from God part. He would make a very interesting character.

I want to see real internal conflict. Ideals and pragmatism colliding. You know, like the real world.

But on the other hand I like true heroes as well. Like the David Crosby/Phil Collins tune, Hero.

My desire is to get those into my writing.

- Medieval Europe-eque Setting. With a twist.
- Dynastic struggles (like in game of thrones)
- Political Intrigue
- A magic system that follows Brandon Sandersons Laws.
- No magical creatures like elves or dwarf. Just Humans.
- Strong female characters who aren't fighters.
- A arranged marriage that actually works out fine.
- Grey morality
- Characters with disabilities as main characters (I loved Sand dan Glokta).

I think that's all for now...

Queen of Swords said:

A fantasy foodie. I don't mean an epic fantasy where the author includes more and more details about food in lieu of story; we already have a series for that, thanks. I mean one where the food is an integral part of the plot. Maybe the heroine is head cook in the castle, or the hero is a food taster. Either way, there should be mouth-watering fantastical feasts.

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Am author I follow of FB said they were working on something like this. Racking my brains to think who. Ack! Also John Courtnay Grimwood's Last Banquet? Not fantasy (historical France), but a "story of life, love and a lust for food"

Or a convincing underwater setting. Convincing for me = humanoid characters adapted for swimming are not likely to have full breasts or long flowing hair.

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Working on it

I would love to read a heroic fantasy where the good guys win... but they all die in the process.

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It;s in the queue.

Myself I'd like less political machinations, more personal stories -- sort of epic sword and sorcery if that makes sense. Plus, obviously, excitement, adventure and really wild things. New and unusual settings, great characters who find themselves in impossible situations - and by that I mean impossible especially for them, because of who they are. Moral quandaries, people trying (and sometimes failing) to be noble, caught between the hammer and the anvil.

GBLT characters where their orientation isn't a main focus of the plot.

Political-economic intrigue and corruption - one of many reasons why I love Pratchett.

Myths and mythical creatures from other cultures, or lesser known stories from Western myths. Any adventure stories that reminds me of the old Harryhausen films like the Sinbad stories.

Esoteric magic - alchemy, sorcery, summoning, etc. from someone who really knows their stuff and doesn't just borrow from videogames, comics, other novels, etc. (Say, if Alan Moore wrote novels, or something heavily influenced by Foucault's Pendulum)

And above all, well-written.

Wilde_at_heart said:

Any adventure stories that reminds me of the old Harryhausen films like the Sinbad stories.

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Yes, that's exactly it!

Queen of Swords said:

A fresh take on unicorns.

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The most recent take has been "Killer Unicorns", as in Diana Peterfreund's Rampant series. (I also saw a book called Unicorn Battle Squad go through the library once... and at least one other YA title where people were riding unicorns to battle, but whose name escapes me at the moment.) But there were several unicorn-like creatures in world mythos, particularly in India and Asia, who really don't get much page-time in books.

Queen of Swords said:

A fantasy foodie. I don't mean an epic fantasy where the author includes more and more details about food in lieu of story; we already have a series for that, thanks. I mean one where the food is an integral part of the plot. Maybe the heroine is head cook in the castle, or the hero is a food taster. Either way, there should be mouth-watering fantastical feasts.

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Confessions of a Gourmand, or How to Cook a Dragon, by Tom Bruno. Reading it really made me realize how underutilized food is in fantasy, and what a driving force it can be in a culture. (Unfortunately, my American taste buds are too underdeveloped for writing that kind of story myself.)

LOTLOF said:

I would love to read a heroic fantasy where the good guys win... but they all die in the process. I love stories about self-sacrifice. I am sick of stories where the good guy never makes a single mistake and wins every fight without so much as a scratch. The idea that there is a cost to war, that achieving something on the order of saving a kingdom or world comes at a price, is often missing. Way too many fantasy stories lack any real sense of drama because it is clear from the beginning everyone is going to have a happy ending.

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It's been a while since I read a grown-up fantasy where it was a given that all the good guys would live and/or the bad guys would die. The cost of victory, too, is often shown. But I suppose my reading experience may be skewed. I do know what you mean, though - I've read some books where it was blatantly obvious that Nothing Bad Would Happen. Even grown-up books that don't have the Fluffy Bunny/"bubble-wrapped world" excuse of (some) YA titles.

Xelebes said:

A good epic fantasy where the characters you are introduced to are neither the hero nor the villain but live on the periphery, where you never meet the hero or the villain but you know that something epic is happening.

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Hmm... I suppose that would be along the lines of many historical fiction books with Big World Events as backdrops; you're not going to follow The Guy Who Took Out Hitler And Saved The Free World (in part because that guy doesn't exist), but someone else whose own problems mirror, or are magnified by, the greater turmoil. It could work, so long as the author makes the character and the conflicts interesting enough that the reader doesn't keep trying to peek past them to the Big Bad Battle... a more realistic portrayal of life in a secondary world than the Farm Boy Who Saves The Universe.

Wilde_at_heart said:

GBLT characters where their orientation isn't a main focus of the plot.

Esoteric magic - alchemy, sorcery, summoning, etc. from someone who really knows their stuff and doesn't just borrow from videogames, comics, other novels, etc. (Say, if Alan Moore wrote novels, or something heavily influenced by Foucault's Pendulum)

And above all, well-written.

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These things would be great.


I'd also like to echo non-European settings.

Also, post-Renaissance settings. I'd love to see more gunpowder fantasy. Not necessarily steampunk, though.



Also what Xelebes said: characters on the periphery.

I'd love to see more novels where there are romantic relationships that aren't completely dysfunctional and doomed, including ones where couples are partners working to solve a problem together.

I'm also going to break with the crowd and say I'd like to see more happy endings, as my experience lately has been rather the opposite of what others have been having, and lots of what I've been reading has a high body count. I like ASoIaF, but enough with the writers trying to emulate this, already.



Anyway, I'd also like more novels with fewer pov characters--maybe not just one, but say, 2-4 instead of 6 or more. The the killing off pov characters thing does tend to work best when you have lots of them. The old-fashioned storytelling convention assumes that the reason the protagonist is the protagonist is because they're the one who did something significant, and it's the how of it that makes the story interesting.


Also, novels where the female protagonist has a secret shame, conflict, or trauma in her past that isn't rape. Also, stories where the protagonist is an older woman or one who isn't especially attractive, but hey, maybe she's still lovable. Stories where protagonists have personal issues that aren't magically resolved by resolving the story's main conflict but with which he or she has to make peace.

More protagonists and important characters who aren't straight, white cisgender males (even though my own protag in my first novel is a straight, white cisgender male heh ) and more cultures that aren't modeled (whether well or badly) off a real-world culture and ethnicity, or if they are inspired by real-world cultures in some way, maybe not always off the handful of ones you always see in fantasy novels with the serial numbers filed off.

Family structures that aren't just like the ones we see in modern America--patriarchal, nuclear families.

But really, what I want most of all are interesting characters in interesting settings that feel like they've got to exist somewhere.

Penguins.

Roxxsmom said:

I'm going to break with the crowd and say that I'd love to see more novels where there are romantic relationships that aren't completely dysfunctional and doomed, including ones where couples are partners working to solve a problem together.

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I like those too. One reason I write (and read) fantasy romance.

Brightdreamer said:

Confessions of a Gourmand, or How to Cook a Dragon, by Tom Bruno. Reading it really made me realize how underutilized food is in fantasy, and what a driving force it can be in a culture.

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Thanks for the recs.

Queen of Swords said:

I like those too. One reason I write (and read) fantasy romance.



Thanks for the recs.

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I'm still steamed over the double standard about men and women writing romantic arcs too. I'm reading a military style fantasy written by a male author right now, and there's definitely a romance brewing between the mmc and one of the female support characters. Not sure how it's going to end yet, but it's not giving out that "this is going to end horribly" vibe. I also feel another potential romance in the work between the fmc and another secondary character.

It's not the main point of the story or anything, but even so, if this author were female, she'd be lambasted by some readers for writing a "stealth" romance. But male writers seem to get more of a pass on this.

As per the food thing in a fantasy romance: Maria Snyder's Poison Study book dealt with a character who became a food taster in order to escape execution. While she wasn't a cook, there was some attention to food, cooking, and flavor, and it was plot relevant.

Roxxsmom said:

As per the food thing in a fantasy romance: Maria Snyder's Poison Study book dealt with a character who became a food taster in order to escape execution. While she wasn't a cook, there was some attention to food, cooking, and flavor, and it was plot relevant.

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Yes, I enjoyed the start of that. It derailed a bit towards the end, IMO, and I'd prefer a foodie to focus more on the food, but I liked the unusual premise. Plus, it had a stunning cover.

I want the long story arc.

Start me off with characters who are having conversations and are in situations and are having experiences. Gradually incorporate enough backstory that I grasp the larger context and the deeper implications of what the characters are doing, and have it turn out to be fairly impressive and noteworthy stuff. By the 3/4 point of the book, have it turn out that what they're immersed in has implications for the largest considerations and questions that our species (or any other species) has ever faced, really globally important stuff.

Example A: Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy

Example B: Dan Brown's The DaVinci Code

Example C: Stephen King's The Stand


But... DO follow through and actually complete the story arc. If you're going to tell the reader by the 3/4 point that the events in the book will reshape everything, cause a new beginning, make everything different from this point forward on a really fundamental level, DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT cheat the reader by wrapping things up in a "actually everything ends up going back to normal, or at least nothing in day to day everyday life changes". That's a really nasty copout.

The long story arc is difficult because you need to actually have a vision for it.

Queen of Swords said:

A fresh take on unicorns.

Dinosaurs. I'm working on this.

Click to expand...

Unicorn dinosaurs.

A desert setting or a High Arctic setting. Or a convincing underwater setting. Convincing for me = humanoid characters adapted for swimming are not likely to have full breasts or long flowing hair.

Click to expand...

snafu1056 said:

New environments, plain and simple. Im tired of the Tolkien-esque, northern European thing. Every culture has its equivalents of kings, knights, wizards, monsters, rogues, barbarians, etc. You wouldnt even have to radically alter the familiar formulas of fantasy. Just adapt them to another cultural context. True, it means more work because there's research involved, but hey, sometimes writing is work.

Click to expand...

Liosse de Velishaf said:

These things would be great.


I'd also like to echo non-European settings.

Also, post-Renaissance settings. I'd love to see more gunpowder fantasy. Not necessarily steampunk, though.

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Yes. Environments on Earth are amazingly diverse. I want more fantasy set in savannas, taigas, mallee scrubs, high deserts, cloud forests.

And more fantasy at all tech levels, not just late mediaeval European. More late Renaissance or Enlightenment fantasy. More future fantasy. More Eastern mythology and social structures in fantasy. Agrarian social structures other than feudalism. Ecologically, economically, geographically, geologically aware fantasy.


Good orcs. Fat elves. Socialist dwarves. Helpful gods. Were-anything-but-wolves. More non-humanoid races of any provenance.