What would you guys want to see in epic and high fantasy?

Marian Perera

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I want more fantasy set in savannas, taigas, mallee scrubs, high deserts, cloud forests.

I'm working on one set in a taiga... but until now I didn't know about cloud forests and they look wonderful. Especially the picture accompanying the Wikipedia article, which shows a bridge stretching through the trees, surrounded by fog. How atmospheric, no pun intended.
 

snafu1056

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Considering how rich Siberian folklore is the Taiga would be a great setting for fantasy.
 

Kevin Nelson

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I'd like more surrealism--more things going on that are just plain bizarre. For my taste, too many fantasy settings have just one or two really fantastic elements, in stories that are otherwise told with gritty realism.
 

Mary Thornell

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New environments, plain and simple. Im tired of the Tolkien-esque, northern European thing. Every culture has its equivalents of kings, knights, wizards, monsters, rogues, barbarians, etc. You wouldnt even have to radically alter the familiar formulas of fantasy. Just adapt them to another cultural context. True, it means more work because there's research involved, but hey, sometimes writing is work.

Im with Snafu on this one, only Id put it in terms of anthropology (that was my degree, what can I say? LOL) - more effort into actually building a fresh new society and their culture. Id like to see more of a what if principle...someone who understands something about Ruth Benedict and applies her studies to some creative ideas...
 

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A new type of fantasy world with unique characters and new types of races that have nothing to do with folklore.
 

Telergic

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Since another volume just came out (The Sea of Time), let me also cite P. C. Hodgell's lengthy Kencyrath series featuring Jamethiel as great high fantasy. This series has three important qualities, at least:

- very good writing, informed by scholarly knowledge of the genre and affection for the classics

- unique setting, lore, and perspective

- enormous auctorial investment in the character and the world

On that last point, it's my understanding that Hodgell has spent even more time in Jamethiel's shoes over the years than Tolkien spent in Aragorn's (and Tolkien supposedly as a young man spent a lot of time swashbuckling vicariously through that character's deeds). This profound attachment to a character may or may not be healthy in every sense of the word, but it certainly invests the character with a vitality and power that probably would not otherwise be present. Moreover, unlike many authors (not just in fanfic) who idolize their main characters, Hodgell if anything gives Jamethiel more nightmarish experiences than soap-operaish ones.
 

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Since another volume just came out (The Sea of Time), let me also cite P. C. Hodgell's lengthy Kencyrath series featuring Jamethiel as great high fantasy. This series has three important qualities, at least:

- very good writing, informed by scholarly knowledge of the genre and affection for the classics

- unique setting, lore, and perspective

- enormous auctorial investment in the character and the world

On that last point, it's my understanding that Hodgell has spent even more time in Jamethiel's shoes over the years than Tolkien spent in Aragorn's (and Tolkien supposedly as a young man spent a lot of time swashbuckling vicariously through that character's deeds). This profound attachment to a character may or may not be healthy in every sense of the word, but it certainly invests the character with a vitality and power that probably would not otherwise be present. Moreover, unlike many authors (not just in fanfic) who idolize their main characters, Hodgell if anything gives Jamethiel more nightmarish experiences than soap-operaish ones.

I second this! P.C. Hodgell is a world building and writing goddess! And she makes her world an essential part of the plot/over all story. She even has migrating trees! Her characters are fantastically unique (although I'm kinda getting tired of Jame and would love some more Torisen). It's sad she isn't more well known.
 
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Aggy B.

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A fantasy foodie. I don't mean an epic fantasy where the author includes more and more details about food in lieu of story; we already have a series for that, thanks. I mean one where the food is an integral part of the plot. Maybe the heroine is head cook in the castle, or the hero is a food taster. Either way, there should be mouth-watering fantastical feasts.

This one is neither novel nor full-blown foodie, but it might tickle your fancy. Theobromancy @ Crowded Magazine A sweet little story about chocolate and coffee wizards.

[Not mine, by the way, but it was published the month before one of mine and I thought it was lovely.]
 

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#1 Good, solid, quality writing. This is the biggest obstacle I face in finding new books to read.

#2 Protagonists who are women, queer, transgendered, disabled, people of color, etc. I don't care whether or not those factors affect the plot so long as it's written well.

#3 Creative magic-systems and world building. "I live in a kingdom and shoot magic missiles," just isn't good enough for me anymore.
 

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- Characters with disabilities as main characters (I loved Sand dan Glokta).

I think that's all for now...

Yay for Glokta! *licks him*

I would like to see more...

- Diverse casts (PoC, LGBT, characters with serious disabilities, not "My disability is that I'm clumsy in an adorable way!")

- Matriarchal and/or gender neutral societies. Oh, and not ones where the message is: Wimmin make turrible rulers cause all the power goes straight to their widdle heids and make 'em crazy cackling witches.

- Quiet, non-physically ass-kicking MMCs who shit their pants at the slightest hint of danger. I would like to see more Samwell Tarlys.

- Humorous, bawdy FMCs a la Nanny Ogg. Yusss, I need more songs like "The Hedgehog Can Never Be Buggered" and "A Wizard's Staff Has A Knob On The End". :D

- More light-hearted stories in general a la Pratchett and our own Red Wombat's Nine Goblins. Something that makes me laugh but actually has a lot of depth.
 

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I'm working on a fantasy story with something much closer to gender equal society, and I've spent way more time than is healthy imagining the attacks on the historical accuracy of gender relations I'm going to get nailed with if this thing ever actually sees print.

Sadly, you probably will... because some people cannot comprehend that "fantasy" and "historical fiction" are not identical terms. (It's weird what some people will fixate on. They'd probably be just fine with alien dragons zapping people with lasers, but tread on one of their sacred-cow notions of history, and it's straight to the internet to start a hate blog. "OMG, a woman led the army against the Evil Dragon Queen! No way would 13th-century French soldiers follow a woman into battle! That book is so totally unrealistic!")
 

rwm4768

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Sadly, you probably will... because some people cannot comprehend that "fantasy" and "historical fiction" are not identical terms. (It's weird what some people will fixate on. They'd probably be just fine with alien dragons zapping people with lasers, but tread on one of their sacred-cow notions of history, and it's straight to the internet to start a hate blog. "OMG, a woman led the army against the Evil Dragon Queen! No way would 13th-century French soldiers follow a woman into battle! That book is so totally unrealistic!")

Yeah, some people seem to think that things can only happen the way they happened on Earth. But it's a fantasy world. That's not going to be the case. The simple presence of a magic is a major reason for deviation, and it can definitely level the playing field between genders. If your soldiers fight with magic, for example, there's no reason women can't fight too.
 

Mr Flibble

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I'm working on a fantasy story with something much closer to gender equal society, and I've spent way more time than is healthy imagining the attacks on the historical accuracy of gender relations I'm going to get nailed with if this thing ever actually sees print.


Unless you are very lucky you'll get nailed on something (even sometimes because someone skipped what you actually said, or read it and didn't get what you were saying or...I got mullered in one review for not mentioning the heroine's hair colour till the last chapter. Which was odd because I'd mentioned it half a dozen times before then. Or "classic damsel in distress, wallbanger" when the narrative states very clearly that at that point she saved the Male MC)


You cannot control how people read your book, you can only control how you write it.
So I say do it anyway.
 

Roxxsmom

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Unless you are very lucky you'll get nailed on something (even sometimes because someone skipped what you actually said, or read it and didn't get what you were saying or...I got mullered in one review for not mentioning the heroine's hair colour till the last chapter. Which was odd because I'd mentioned it half a dozen times before then. Or "classic damsel in distress, wallbanger" when the narrative states very clearly that at that point she saved the Male MC)


You cannot control how people read your book, you can only control how you write it.
So I say do it anyway.

Completely. For instance, I just discovered that a pov that I enjoy reading (first person) is irritating to many readers because it tends to make characters sound whiny. I guess I like whiny.

I also was told once (by someone who hadn't read my ms) that an epiphany that my male MC had--that he can't be responsible for the choices made by the people he loves or protect them from all of the consequences of these choices--is emasculating, because the cardinal male value and function is protecting others, especially your womenfolk (and I got a mini lecture about how modern men rape, harass and disrespect women because feminism has devalued sex and stripped men from their protective purpose). So rape and sexual harassment are modern things, and feminists are responsible for them. Who knew?

I guess this means that if you're writing dark, gritty fantasy set in an old-fashioned world where men are men and most women know their place, rape would have to be a non issue.

:sarcasm

Oh well, hand me the clippers, I guess. I wonder, though, why no one ever accuses writers who shoehorn women into limited and implausible roles in stories are never taken to task for efeminating them. In fact wonder why "efeminating" isn't even a verb, while emasculating is.

It does seem that fantasy fans are higher maintenance today and expect their fantasy worlds and societies to be "harder" or more plausible in real-world terms than they used to. And they seem to be more likely to pick nits and argue over the alleged holes in authors' world building than they once did. It never used to occur to me to wonder why a world might be stuck in the quasi middle ages for far longer than our own world was, or for viking women to be knitting (or have wall inset fireplaces in their huts), or for a world to have a concept of sanitation but no steam engines, or for there to be age of sail era ships in a world without gunpodwder.

I suspect some of it's the internet. Not only can fans get together to discuss these things more readily (and point out "flaws" to one another), but people can look things up and say, "Hey, 'escalate' is an anachronistic word in a world without the Otis corporation."
 
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Mr Flibble

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(and I got a mini lecture about how modern men rape, harass and disrespect women because feminism has devalued sex and stripped men from their protective purpose). So rape and sexual harassment are modern things, and feminists are responsible for them. Who knew?
I hope you either laughed derisively or smacked them upside the head.

Rape is in the bible...ofc it was presented differently. Same with slavery soooo....
 

Marian Perera

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I once got a pretty nasty review from someone claiming that my first novel was unfeminist because my heroine started out a sex slave. She helps save her homeland and ends up in a happy relationship with a man who treats her as an equal, plus I thought the novel passed the Bechdel test because she learns about physics from another woman.

Oh well.

It does seem that fantasy fans are higher maintenance today and expect their fantasy worlds and societies to be "harder" or more plausible in real-world terms than they used to.

Could it be because there's a lot more fantasy available now than there was back in the day? With many more authors to choose from (and books more easily available with the advent of epublishing), maybe that's why fans are pickier. I know I certainly am. :)
 
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I'm not going to not write it because of the crap it would get. But I can't help anticipating it, either.



It's not even some sort of super matriarchal feminist utopia. It's not all that different from some of the stuff we've already seen in fantasy. Just powerful, wealthy, etc women aren't as much of an exception as they can be.
 

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As per the food thing in a fantasy romance: Maria Snyder's Poison Study book dealt with a character who became a food taster in order to escape execution. While she wasn't a cook, there was some attention to food, cooking, and flavor, and it was plot relevant.

I really appreciated these parts of Poison Study.

Like others on this thread, I'd definitely like to see more PoC, LGBTQ, and diverse casts. Also, on the topic of diversity, different political, social, and economic hierarchies in fantasy worlds. I want to see what other kinds of organizations that fantasy characters structure their lives by, other than feudal structures imposed by kings and queens and the occasional guild. This includes families! I'd like to see older protagonists (as in 35+) who go off to war or solve a problem or save the world in order to help their families.
 

Roxxsmom

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I once got a pretty nasty review from someone claiming that my first novel was unfeminist because my heroine started out a sex slave. She helps save her homeland and ends up in a happy relationship with a man who treats her as an equal, plus I thought the novel passed the Bechdel test because she learns about physics from another woman.

Oh well.

Another example of how you can't please everyone.


Could it be because there's a lot more fantasy available now than there was back in the day? With many more authors to choose from (and books more easily available with the advent of epublishing), maybe that's why fans are pickier. I know I certainly am. :)

Possibly. I honestly don't know how much there is now compared to, say, the 1980s, at least in terms of trade publishing (which is pretty much all I read). There were certainly lots of fantasy novels around back then too, but in general, readers were more willing to let a fantasy world have things that didn't really make sense if they served the story and made for a cool world. I was reading an author blog the other day about dragons and how impossible it is for something that big to fly. Well duh, I think that's been known for a very long time. But readers care about stuff like that now, at least with respect to new writers (old writers like GRRM and Robin Hobb who have been at it for years are allowed to have dragons in their stories). Even science fiction was allowed to have stuff that wasn't terribly realistic back then. Imagine if OSC tried to write Ender's Game today, with his FTL travel and bug like aliens.
 
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I think that readers are certainly more picky in some ways than they used to be. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I think it can lead to good things in some books, such as creativity or contrasting solutions to problems.


That said, I'm happy to let dragons slide. And similar things. Other readers allow different things to slide.
 

Once!

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I think that readers are certainly more picky in some ways than they used to be. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I think it can lead to good things in some books, such as creativity or contrasting solutions to problems.

I think that's absolutely right. There does seem to be a trend for readers to have strong expectations about what they do and do not want to see. It may be a function of having so much choice. It means that readers can fine tune their reading so that they get exactly the type of story, hero, plot, level of realism, etc that they want.

To a certain degree that has always been there. What seems to be new is the ability of anyone and everyone to write a review of a book, movie, restaurant, whatever. In the past we might have read a book(or started to read a book), not liked it and so put it down - with no-one else being any the wiser that it didn't work for us. Now we can tell the world that we didn't like it.

The trick that we haven't quite managed is to tell the difference between "I didn't like it" and "It is rubbish".
 

Roxxsmom

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And I think shame plays into things more now that people are so much more public with their likes and dislikes. It can be mortifying to discover that some author you like is widely ridiculed by the "cool kids" of fandom, especially if they make a good case for something being a flaw when you hadn't seen it as such before. I suppose fandom has always done this, but in the old days, reading was a solitary activity for most, and "fandom" was a tiny percentage of readers. The internet has changed that.

An example for me is language and names in fantasy. I used to be pretty oblivious to them so long as I had a rough idea how to pronounce them. Apostrophes, dashes, accents etc. I didn't care, and not being a linguist, I really didn't notice if Germanic names were mixing with French sounding ones or Persian ones or whatever. But hanging out with people for whom this sort of thing constitutes a pet peeve has made me more aware of this sort of thing, though I still have a heck of a time knowing how to tell if names go together sometimes.
 
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I think that's absolutely right. There does seem to be a trend for readers to have strong expectations about what they do and do not want to see. It may be a function of having so much choice. It means that readers can fine tune their reading so that they get exactly the type of story, hero, plot, level of realism, etc that they want.

To a certain degree that has always been there. What seems to be new is the ability of anyone and everyone to write a review of a book, movie, restaurant, whatever. In the past we might have read a book(or started to read a book), not liked it and so put it down - with no-one else being any the wiser that it didn't work for us. Now we can tell the world that we didn't like it.

The trick that we haven't quite managed is to tell the difference between "I didn't like it" and "It is rubbish".


Yeah, we're still working on the one. And also on telling the difference between "I did like it" and "It's awesome". :Soapbox:

And I think shame plays into things more now that people are so much more public with their likes and dislikes. It can be mortifying to discover that some author you like is widely ridiculed by the "cool kids" of fandom, especially if they make a good case for something being a flaw when you hadn't seen it as such before. I suppose fandom has always done this, but in the old days, reading was a solitary activity for most, and "fandom" was a tiny percentage of readers. The internet has changed that.

An example for me is language and names in fantasy. I used to be pretty oblivious to them so long as I had a rough idea how to pronounce them. Apostrophes, dashes, accents etc. I didn't care, and not being a linguist, I really didn't notice if Germanic names were mixing with French sounding ones or Persian ones or whatever. But hanging out with people for whom this sort of thing constitutes a pet peeve has made me more aware of this sort of thing, though I still have a heck of a time knowing how to tell if names go together sometimes.


I admit that my taste has definitely been refined over the course of getting involved in fandom discussion and just everyday learning like college courses and such. Thing I would happily have put up with or not even noticed ten years ago are some of my biggest turn-offs now. And I'm more critical even of books I really like. I think it's sad to lose a bit of my reading innocence, but I think there's value in my new perspectives, too.
 

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More happy/bittersweet endings. I am SO TIRED of cynical grimdark. I want something that's hopeful.

More imagination in the world-building. Settings that aren't pseudo-medieval europe.

Interesting, flawed, complex characters whose actions make sense for their character. Especially women. Well-written women, who are not one extreme or the other. Women who can be powerful AND emotional AND cruel AND loving AND confused AND determined... women who seem real, rather than like they are a symbol for everything the author thinks women should/shouldn't be.

More diverse casts. I am hungry for some different MC viewpoints and characters. All people of all backgrounds are worthy of having adventures, and of seeing people like themselves having them.

DIFFERENT fantasy species. Not elves/dwarves/orcs by another name. Different. Their thought processes and behaviour should be alien and strange.

More pirates. I like pirates.

Good writing.
 
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