What would you guys want to see in epic and high fantasy?

CrastersBabies · Jul 13, 2014

Lord of Chaos said:
Quoted for agreement. It's fantasy, and the author has the right to do whatever he/she wants with the world. It doesn't make it an anacronism to include homosexual characters or racism/classism/descrimination of other kinds. We all draw inspiration from our world, be it current political trends, genocide, war, or social movements.

I have classism in my books and in some parts there's sexism, but the world is mine and addresses the issues that are prevelent in it. In some "noble" (for lack of a better word) families the inheritance passes through the men, but in those same families the women retain their family name when they marry and it's the men who change theirs. I think it's a fresh take on some of these issues

This is what I'm talking about, yeah. I feel like people think readers want to see Xena riding a giant dinosaur through town and then killing all the men and blah blah (I'm bored already). It's silly.

But, when I read fantasy novels from the 80's, for example, I see so many areas where writers were pushing forward in terms of gender (for example). The Dragonlance series comes to mind. While it wasn't perfect by any stretch, I think of Kitiara. Female warrior. Had some lovers. But love wasn't her entire focus. She was badass. And evil. And rode dragons. And nowhere in the books did we get precious little moments like:

(GASP), a WOMAN riding a dragon, carrying a sword! ooooooo, that's so strange! And progressive!

I remember disliking her right away (she was the villain!) but respecting her as a threat all the same. Especially when she offed a certain character that I was just beginning to like.

I think a fresh take (as stated above) is a great approach. How can I make this slightly different? Sure, some people don't like romance in fantasies. Maybe they're sick of the chosen couple trope. For me, I have a married couple. Arranged marriage, but let's forgo the BS, "Omg, this is so bad that I'm in a marriage like this. WAHH WAHH." How about they act like people who grew up in this society and who simply must make it work? And respect one another. And, above all, learn to work together. Then later, how do they both obtain their goals and still maintain a working marriage?

I start off where these people are already married. He's back from war. What now? Well, we do our duties. The marriage is on the back burner. Our real goals speak to our deepest wants/desires and those, my friend, are not wrapped up in, "Aww, does he wuv me?" but rather in issues that impact entire kingdoms and countries. (Epic fantasy, yo!)

Roxxsmom · Jul 13, 2014

Lord of Chaos said:
Quoted for agreement. It's fantasy, and the author has the right to do whatever he/she wants with the world. It doesn't make it an anacronism to include homosexual characters or racism/classism/descrimination of other kinds. We all draw inspiration from our world, be it current political trends, genocide, war, or social movements.

I have classism in my books and in some parts there's sexism, but the world is mine and addresses the issues that are prevelent in it. In some "noble" (for lack of a better word) families the inheritance passes through the men, but in those same families the women retain their family name when they marry and it's the men who change theirs. I think it's a fresh take on some of these issues

I also agree with Crashter's point and yours.

I think the argument that fantasy has to reflect some narrow view of "real history" is vacuous for another reason too: real" history isn't very narrow. There really were matrilineal societies; there really were cultures where QUILTBAG folks weren't anathema; there really were societies where skin color wasn't the end all and be all of social status; there really were widely divergent attitudes about things like slavery. There really were (and are) a ton of different religions out there with a ton of different attitudes about things. There really were lots of different ways of determining kinship, social obligation, responsibility to family etc.

Even medieval Europe was not monolithic in this respect (the middle ages lasted 1000 years or so, and Europe is a continent, not a tiny little country). And it's not that hard to imagine that just a few changes, something like the presence of magic, or another intelligent species, or even a different culture or religion becoming ascendent, could have made history unfold very differently than it did.

And anyway societies that were more narrowly sexist, homophobic, bigoted etc., had plenty of women, QUILTBAG people, people of color etc., who broke the "rules" and accomplished things.

rwm4768 · Jul 13, 2014

Yeah, I see no reason why fantasy worlds have to have things against homosexuality. I believe it was just fine in Rome and Greece. A fantasy society isn't going to share the same views as medieval Europe, not unless you're designing it as a medieval Europe analogue.

Here's something I want to see in epic fantasy. Fast pacing and tightly plotted stories where things are actually happening. I've read too many books, even acclaimed books, that are so, so slow.

sohalt · Jul 13, 2014

Lots of great ideas already, quoting my favs:

Brightdreamer said:
Hmm... I suppose that would be along the lines of many historical fiction books with Big World Events as backdrops; you're not going to follow The Guy Who Took Out Hitler And Saved The Free World (in part because that guy doesn't exist), but someone else whose own problems mirror, or are magnified by, the greater turmoil. It could work, so long as the author makes the character and the conflicts interesting enough that the reader doesn't keep trying to peek past them to the Big Bad Battle... a more realistic portrayal of life in a secondary world than the Farm Boy Who Saves The Universe.

Yes. I'm pretty tired of the climactic battle boiling down to the hero facing off with some sort of dark lord/personification of evil, thus single-handedly deciding the war, while all the other team members just had to keep the forces of darkness at bay long enough so that he could do his thing. (Which I guess is just another way of saying I'm not necessarily here for chosen ones). Real history doesn't work like that, with one decisive hero, and one decisive battle, and historical/literary fiction tends to acknowledge that. Doesn't make it less epic. I want more fantasy that reads like War and Peace rather than Lord of the Rings in that regard.

maxmordon said:
Sometimes I imagine how a version of A Song of Ice and Fire would play out set in, say, a version of Europe during the 20th Century with Robert's Rebellion playing out as a WWII analogue, Robert himself as a Franco/Tito-type of strongman, Northerners and Ironborn as separatists akin to the IRA, the Chechenyans or the Basque movement with the Lannisters and Tyrells as posh prep school-type bankers and entrepeneurs. But I digress.

Here for more later-than-medieval epic fantasy. Yes, it's tricky to make magic co-exist with technology. But it seems like a worthwhile challenge.

The urban fantasy genre, as it currently presents itself, doesn't quite scratch that itch for me, because it seems to me mostly a mix of paranormal romance + noir.

Roxxsmom · Jul 13, 2014

I think some of the issue with stories--fantasy or otherwise--focusing on a single protagonist who takes out a single baddy, or exposes a single plot that makes the evil house of cards come crashing down is because it's darned hard to write something that's both realistic and satisfying in that sense.

Think of it--if Sauron had continued to exist, albeit in a weaker form--for months or years after the ring was destroyed, then the good guys might still have lost. Even a weakened army of darkness can win in it's much larger than the good guys' army, and has more resources at its disposal (the mundane details of food and supply lines weren't Tolkien's literary forte either). And if the sides had been more evenly matched to begin with, the way they often are in "real" wars, then the whole destroy the ring thing would have become less important, and the heroes struggles less urgent and poignant.

As a writer, I'm not sure how to write a self-contained story with a clear and satisfying ending that doesn't rely on some kind of big showdown or trick at the end (whether it's something magical, or a trick like Luke's "using the force" to find the hole in the first Death Star's defenses).

Writing more realistic conflicts, where each character has their own arc and role to play in the overall conflict, and some are even dead ends? Well, there's ASoIaF. It's very popular, probably because of its novelty (and all the rape, murder and dysfunction probably doesn't hurt--just like a soap opera in a fantasy world). But the further Martin gets into the series, the harder time he has writing it, and the less satisfied his fans seem to be with each installment. I think readers are wanting that "big standoff" where Danys comes to Westernos with her dragons, and we finally find out whether our theories about Jon Snow's parentage are correct, and we figure out where all the various characters fit into the whole puzzle, and the Starks are vindicated in some way, and the armies find a way to fight event though there's no food because winter is finally here, and...

Problem is, he's written something where it's going to be very hard to give the readers what they're looking for without simultaneously making for some kind of let down.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 13, 2014

I think it is hard to write a "realistic" plot because we don't actually know all that much about how realistic stuff happens. It just does. We can point to some big events here and there, and make a decent guess they had a strong effect, but it's hard to say for any specific medium or small event what kind of effect it had. And certainly the emotional pay-off can be bigger with a clear victory by a main character.

Also, it's hard to build up an antagonist, especially when you don't get their POV. So imagine building up several low level antags who never get a POV chapter. Or trying to characterize the morale of a group of low-level enemies. Cutting the head off the snake is a strong symbolic moment, and is easy to grasp for a reader. Cutting off a few toes or severing a tendon here and there is less substantive in each instance and can be harder to great across the importance of to a reader.

.Fay. · Jul 13, 2014

rwm4768 said:
I thought the pacing in the book was great. I thought it was a well-written book. I just hated the main character so much that I don't want to continue reading about him. I can handle main characters that do bad things occasionally, but Jorg was just too much for me.

When I finished the first book in this series I completely agreed with you. My best friend bought it for me and asked if I was going to read the rest and I said no way I hate the main character so much I just want him to die. Then I found myself at the book store and just enough cash to buy me book 2 and really none of the other books were that cheap. So I said, fine. And he gets better. And book 3 was awesome. I highly recommend just *trying* to read book 2. You might change your mind (I did!)

sohalt · Jul 14, 2014

I think somewhat open endings can be pretty satisfying too, as long as the central characters get some sort of closure. You can still have big, flashy showdowns without implying that's all it takes to resolve multi-layered conflicts without residue.

Eg. A Song of Ice And Fire - Even if Martin does decide to end the War for Dawn by having Dany, or Jon, or Tyrion, or maybe Bran fly on a dragon into the Land of Always Wintern and defeat the Great Other in single combat while everyone else holds the fort at the Trident or the Wall, that's, well ... just the War for Dawn. We all know it won't automatically cure the rot in the Westerosi institutions that led us to the point; we can make an educated guess that this will be a tad more difficult than just putting the right ass on the throne.

The War for Dawn can be won or lost and I guess we'll get a decisive answer at the end of the series. The Game of Thrones however just enters another round. So the really interesting question is not so much who gets to make that heroic sacrifice to defeat the Great Other epic fantasy-style, but rather who survives to pick up the pieces and what the survivors decide to do with those. Targ restoration? National independence of all 7 Kingdoms? Gradual transition into a constitutional monarchy?

At this point of the story I'm much more invested in individual characters' various reform projects (Dany trying to abolish slavery, Jon trying to integrate the wildlings, Jaime trying to restore the King's Guard's honor, Asha trying to find alternatives for the raiding-lifestyle for the Ironborn) than in who gets to end up on that chair. Some of those will probably fail, and some might succeed. There's not going to be one big pay-off resolving everything, but several smaller ones. Besides, I suspect that most readers will be quite satisfied as long as the Starks reunite at some point and one of them gets to rebuild Winterfell.

Of course it won't please everyone. That's pretty much impossible any way. But I think Martin is actually in a quite favourable position, in as far that it will also be impossible for him to displease everyone with his ending. That's the great advantage of inspiring so much divided loyalities over such a huge ensembe of conflicting points of view - not matter who gets to survive, they will have some fans who'll be thrilled about the outcome.

Roxxsmom · Jul 14, 2014

I think somewhat open endings are pretty common these days, at least in EF, but I suspect it's more about leaving things open for sequels than from a desire to be more realistic

writer_mccall · Jul 15, 2014

sohalt said:
I think somewhat open endings can be pretty satisfying too, as long as the central characters get some sort of closure. You can still have big, flashy showdowns without implying that's all it takes to resolve multi-layered conflicts without residue.

Eg. A Song of Ice And Fire - Even if Martin does decide to end the War for Dawn by having Dany, or Jon, or Tyrion, or maybe Bran fly on a dragon into the Land of Always Wintern and defeat the Great Other in single combat while everyone else holds the fort at the Trident or the Wall, that's, well ... just the War for Dawn. We all know it won't automatically cure the rot in the Westerosi institutions that led us to the point; we can make an educated guess that this will be a tad more difficult than just putting the right ass on the throne.

The War for Dawn can be won or lost and I guess we'll get a decisive answer at the end of the series. The Game of Thrones however just enters another round. So the really interesting question is not so much who gets to make that heroic sacrifice to defeat the Great Other epic fantasy-style, but rather who survives to pick up the pieces and what the survivors decide to do with those. Targ restoration? National independence of all 7 Kingdoms? Gradual transition into a constitutional monarchy?

At this point of the story I'm much more invested in individual characters' various reform projects (Dany trying to abolish slavery, Jon trying to integrate the wildlings, Jaime trying to restore the King's Guard's honor, Asha trying to find alternatives for the raiding-lifestyle for the Ironborn) than in who gets to end up on that chair. Some of those will probably fail, and some might succeed. There's not going to be one big pay-off resolving everything, but several smaller ones. Besides, I suspect that most readers will be quite satisfied as long as the Starks reunite at some point and one of them gets to rebuild Winterfell.

Of course it won't please everyone. That's pretty much impossible any way. But I think Martin is actually in a quite favourable position, in as far that it will also be impossible for him to displease everyone with his ending. That's the great advantage of inspiring so much divided loyalities over such a huge ensembe of conflicting points of view - not matter who gets to survive, they will have some fans who'll be thrilled about the outcome.

Even fantastic stories can let slip on the endings. I just hope Martin sticks to what he wants to write rather than trying to please fans.
I remember Mass Effect, such an amazing sci-fi game universe and story and yet by trying to cover all their bases in the ending they ended up pleasing nobody
'If you try to please everyone, you'll only end up pleasing no one'

NRoach · Jul 15, 2014

writer_mccall said:
Even fantastic stories can let slip on the endings. I just hope Martin sticks to what he wants to write rather than trying to please fans.
I remember Mass Effect, such an amazing sci-fi game universe and story and yet by trying to cover all their bases in the ending they ended up pleasing nobody
'If you try to please everyone, you'll only end up pleasing no one'

Mass Effect's problem was less trying to please everyone, than writing themselves into a catastrophic corner and changing the lead writer over the course of the series.

LessonsToLiveBy · Jul 23, 2014

knight_tour said:
I'd like to see more traditional 'Tolkienesque' high fantasy, but done in a more gritty, realistic manner, say if George R.R. Martin or Richard K. Morgan or Joe Abercrombie were writing it.

Yes, and where we actually find something (or a lot of things) to like in the MC. I'm getting tired of characters with so many flaws that I can't see them as heroes or even protagonists.

I have a character that I think of as "Jason Bourne with a sword" when I write him.

Ariella · Jul 24, 2014

I agree with Lessons.

I would also like to see more stories where the protagonists actually succeed in doing something positive for their society. It may just be the books I've read lately, but seems to me that in recent years endings have swung from one extreme to another. Whereas older books ended with the demise of the evil overlord, and assumed that his one life was all that was standing between the heroes and a better kingdom, newer books seem to be set in worlds so malicious and corrupt that no one is empowered to make them even slightly better places. I would like to see more books where the heroes manage to accomplish something constructive.

fergrex · Jul 25, 2014

phantasy said:
Are there any books with a female heroine who doesn't fall in love in the book? Or she'd already married or something?

Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy. The main character, Paks, is not interested. It's not that she hasn't found the right person, or has some kind of complex about it; she just has other goals.

writer_mccall · Jul 25, 2014

How about an urban fantasy set in 16th-17th century Ottoman Empire?
Just a though I had the other day. Maybe I should right it up

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 26, 2014

writer_mccall said:
How about an urban fantasy set in 16th-17th century Ottoman Empire?
Just a though I had the other day. Maybe I should right it up

I wish there was more "urban" fantasy set in historical periods but you may find it hard to market such a novel as urban fantasy, since most people consider it UF only if it's also contemporary fantasy.

Mr Flibble · Jul 26, 2014

writer_mccall said:
How about an urban fantasy set in 16th-17th century Ottoman Empire?
Just a though I had the other day. Maybe I should right it up

Write it

It'll probably be marketed as historical fantasy (as said above, UF is generally contemp), but hey, write the sucker anyway. I love that stuff!

endearing · Jul 28, 2014

I like this thread.

Possibly because I just really like epic and high fantasy, though a lot of the fantasy I read these days isn't.

I'd love to see more:
- non-European settings (and personally, I'm going to say Asian-inspired settings)
- loyal sidekick/best friend (not that I think there's necessarily a dearth of them, but I just love them a lot)
- romance between equals who make each other better and help each other on their quest
- a naturally unfolding conflict of a magnitude you don't initially expect

endearing · Jul 28, 2014

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I wish there was more "urban" fantasy set in historical periods but you may find it hard to market such a novel as urban fantasy, since most people consider it UF only if it's also contemporary fantasy.

Hmm, that's true. Though there's also the Infernal Devices trilogy by Cassandra Clare, set in Victorian England. (But those are YA and Clare has made quite a name for herself with urban fantasy, so possibly an exception?)

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 28, 2014

endearing said:
Hmm, that's true. Though there's also the Infernal Devices trilogy by Cassandra Clare, set in Victorian England. (But those are YA and Clare has made quite a name for herself with urban fantasy, so possibly an exception?)

Not Urban Fantasy. But Cassie Clare doesn't need a genre. She's practically her own by now.

Morri · Jul 28, 2014

- Dragons. I think they're awesome and I don't care if people are sick of them. Bonus points if they're Eastern or are more than just scaly lizards that are okay being ridden like fire breathing horses that fly and can crush you with their feet.

- I'd like to see more matriarchal societies and how they function. The only one I can think of right now is in the series by R.A. Salvatore, but that may just be because I'm not looking hard enough.

- Desert settings. I don't know why, but I'm really interested in them. That's why I loved The Lions of Al-Rassan so much, apart from the amazing prose.

- Speaking of deserts, I would love to see more fantasy set in Egypt. I love the mythology, and it has such a rich history.

- Elves with varying skin tones. I don't understand why they either have to be 'light' elves and pale or 'dark' elves and a weird grey color? And why have I never seen or heard of a fat elf? Am I reading the wrong books? :Huh:

rwm4768 · Jul 28, 2014

Stardrop said:
- Desert settings. I don't know why, but I'm really interested in them. That's why I loved The Lions of Al-Rassan so much, apart from the amazing prose.

You might give Glenda Larke's The Last Stormlord a try. It's set in a desert, and the magic system is an integral part of surviving in that desert.

Parts of Peter V. Brett's Demon Cycle (starting with The Warded Man/The Painted Man) are set in a desert.

You might also try out Saladin Ahmed's Throne of the Crescent Moon, though I was a little disappointed by it.

Roxxsmom · Jul 29, 2014

Stardrop said:
- Desert settings. I don't know why, but I'm really interested in them. That's why I loved The Lions of Al-Rassan so much, apart from the amazing prose.

- Speaking of deserts, I would love to see more fantasy set in Egypt. I love the mythology, and it has such a rich history.

Mercedes Lackey's Joust books had dragons and they were set in an Egypt-inspired society. They were ridden, but it was interesting how she fashioned their social system and the way they bonded to their human handlers after birds.

Sherri S Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country was a novel (more SF than fantasy, though) set in a matriarchal society.

Stardrop said:
Elves with varying skin tones. I don't understand why they either have to be 'light' elves and pale or 'dark' elves and a weird grey color? And why have I never seen or heard of a fat elf? Am I reading the wrong books?

There doesn't seem to be many fantasy novels with elves in them anymore. Not sure why that is. I agree that it would be nice to see elves with the same kind of diversity that we see in humans.

A race of elves that tend towards plumpness would be a nice change from willowy tree dwellers.

writer_mccall · Jul 29, 2014

endearing said:
I like this thread. Possibly because I just really like epic and high fantasy, though a lot of the fantasy I read these days isn't.

I'd love to see more:
- non-European settings (and personally, I'm going to say Asian-inspired settings)
- loyal sidekick/best friend (not that I think there's necessarily a dearth of them, but I just love them a lot)
- romance between equals who make each other better and help each other on their quest
- a naturally unfolding conflict of a magnitude you don't initially expect

Slowly getting more ideas for an Ottoman historical/urban fantasy story. Having recently played Assassins Creed Revelations gives me quite a good feel for the setting. Might have to put off some other projects to work on this now

Morri · Jul 29, 2014

rwm4768 said:
You might give Glenda Larke's The Last Stormlord a try. It's set in a desert, and the magic system is an integral part of surviving in that desert.

Parts of Peter V. Brett's Demon Cycle (starting with The Warded Man/The Painted Man) are set in a desert.

You might also try out Saladin Ahmed's Throne of the Crescent Moon, though I was a little disappointed by it.

I think I've read the samples of all three of those on Amazon, but it was a while ago and my brain has muddled them together. I'll have to go look at them again. What was it about Crescent Moon that disappointed you?

Roxxsmom said:
Mercedes Lackey's Joust books had dragons and they were set in an Egypt-inspired society. They were ridden, but it was interesting how she fashioned their social system and the way they bonded to their human handlers after birds.

Sherri S Tepper's The Gate to Women's Country was a novel (more SF than fantasy, though) set in a matriarchal society.

There doesn't seem to be many fantasy novels with elves in them anymore. Not sure why that is. I agree that it would be nice to see elves with the same kind of diversity that we see in humans.

A race of elves that tend towards plumpness would be a nice change from willowy tree dwellers.

Dragons! Egypt! I'm definitely looking into that. I've also noticed that there's less elves in general, and I'm not sure if it's because people aren't interested in reading about them or if agents aren't picking up novels with them. I hope it's neither one, since they're the main source of conflict in my current project.

Personally, I would be very tickled by a portly elf with a nice tan.

What would you guys want to see in epic and high fantasy?

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW

sohalt

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Liosse de Velishaf

.Fay.

sohalt

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

writer_mccall

NRoach

LessonsToLiveBy

Ariella

...

fergrex

writer_mccall

Liosse de Velishaf

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

endearing

in love with Jesus

endearing

in love with Jesus

Liosse de Velishaf

Morri

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

writer_mccall

Morri