How to workshop a novel with a critique group

rquinlivan · Feb 16, 2015

This is a question less about a particular problem I am facing in my novel manuscript (though there are plenty), but rather about how to workshop it with my critique group.

I belong to a lovely group that meets weekly, schedules permitting. I'm used to workshopping short stories, but now I'd like to focus on getting some much needed feedback on my novel rewrite. I usually have 1-2 chapters of varying length for them each session. Let's assume I get some good feedback, realize my mistakes, and fix them in a subsequent revision. Then I write another 1-2 chapters. What do I do if the revisions have affected the plot and pacing? I fear that my workshop partners may not have enough context to critique the next chapters and overall direction of the novel, especially if there are significant changes made while going through these chapter-by-chapter revisions.

I'm curious how others handle this. I know this would be easier if I stuck to a rigid outline, but I am, unfortunately, a slow learner, and I have not had much success in meticulously plotting out every chapter in advance and then following through on that plan. I envy others who can do this, but I always find it necessary to change the outline as I go along, which I suppose makes it not much of an outline at all.

Thanks,
Robert

BethS · Feb 16, 2015

If your rewrites of already-critiqued chapters significantly affect the story, you can always give your critique group a quick summary of what you changed. That way, subsequent chapters will make sense to them.

InspectorFarquar · Feb 16, 2015

You may also consider whether you wish to cede influence in which way the novel progresses to a critique group. Seems to me that's a one person job. At least until the work is done.

You may consider having them critique the writing only. As you know, there's plenty there to be concerned with.

Maryn · Feb 16, 2015

I'm in a longtime critique group that started with short stories but now does the occasional novel. We do a brief "The Story So Far..." at the top of the first page to be critiqued. It will include any changes made based on previous critique.

When the novel is complete, the author asks if anyone is open to going over the whole thing, separate from the critique group. Only if every single person in the group agrees to it does it become part of the group's activities rather than a thing some of us do on the side.

The author distributes the entire book, and we agree to meet on X date having read at least up to page Y, critiquing mostly Big Picture aspects like pacing, character development, plotting, etc. (We also mark goofs we happen to notice, but we don't do a line-by-line.) Usually the novel is divided into sections of 25,000 to 40,000 words, depending on its length and where the chapters fall. We meet three or four times to do the whole book, the final meeting covering not only its last section but the book as a whole.

Maryn, knowing each group does what works for it

beckethm · Feb 16, 2015

Maryn said:
I'm in a longtime critique group that started with short stories but now does the occasional novel. We do a brief "The Story So Far..." at the top of the first page to be critiqued. It will include any changes made based on previous critique.

My group does something similar. We have also, on occasion, adjusted our rotation to critique a larger section of someone's manuscript when the writer wanted a big picture review.

InspectorFarquar said:
You may also consider whether you wish to cede influence in which way the novel progresses to a critique group. Seems to me that's a one person job. At least until the work is done.

InspectorFarquar raises a good point. Critiques can send you down rabbit holes, if you let them. On balance, though, I've always found it helpful to get feedback on works in progress while I'm writing. If there are major issues with character or plot, I would rather uncover those things early on than after I've spent months completing a draft.

Layla Nahar · Feb 16, 2015

I'd like to recommend two things. One is the Milford style workshopping, viz http://cascadewriters.com/milford-style-workshopping/ and also to read Ch 4 of Peter Elbow's "Writing Without Teachers", that chapter is called 'The Teacherless Writing Class'. If your group is exposed to these two things, I think you can accomplish a lot.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 16, 2015

Why not just let a professional agent or editor look at it. No one person in a hundred has a clue what they want. But if you want a same old, same old novel, critique groups are perfect for generating one.

Jo Zebedee · Feb 16, 2015

To put in a rather more cheerful option than James' - I've worked with an established critique group with wip. If you need a break to regroup, say so. If you change something so much you need another run at it say so. If you aren't a quick writer and rewriter, though, you might come under pressure, in which case I'd reccommend reducing the scheldule.

None of my novels have been described as same old, same old to date...

CrastersBabies · Feb 16, 2015

BethS said:
If your rewrites of already-critiqued chapters significantly affect the story, you can always give your critique group a quick summary of what you changed. That way, subsequent chapters will make sense to them.

This is what I do.

If the changes are HUGE, I will usually revise ahead to fix future chapters.

Fruitbat · Feb 16, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
Why not just let a professional agent or editor look at it. No one person in a hundred has a clue what they want. But if you want a same old, same old novel, critique groups are perfect for generating one.

So I've heard you say that a couple of times and now I'm stumped because after some reflection, I think you are right. What stands out does often seem to be just what everyone goes after and I cringe at some of the advice that new writer's seem to gobble up. Many times I have wanted to scream omg they're critting the freshness right out of it.

However. It's also true that when they don't go through that process, the writing seems to me painfully amateurish and I can point out a dozen or more common errors.

And, I do not believe editors/publishers/agents will bother babysitting a newbie through amateurish prose just because they see a glimmer of sparkle somewhere underneath. If they're getting the nitpicky things wrong, imo it's rare that the rest of it shines, although there really might be something stunningly original underneath all that.

So. So? Well. I just don't know any more...

veinglory · Feb 17, 2015

A critique group functions to support the goals of the writer. You can proceed, revisit, or skip sections of text according to what best meets your goals. Or at least that is how my group functions

Coconut · Feb 17, 2015

In my critique group, people usually bring the first 3 or 4 chapters to workshop, but after that it gets difficult to keep up with the story, so if they want to get the whole novel critiqued, they ask specific people in the group if they'd be willing to read it privately.

I've also been part of a critique group that was smaller and basically just for novel writers, if you set something like that up, it'd be easier for novel writers who want to get a full critiqued rather than partial over a period of a few months.

neandermagnon · Feb 17, 2015

In the critique groups I've been involved with in the past, you read out what you wanted critted, be it a short story, poem or a chapter of a novel. If it's a novel and you're not, for example, reading the next chapter each week, then providing basic plot details is necessary.

From some of the responses it sounds like I've been involved in much less formal writers groups.

BethS · Feb 17, 2015

Fruitbat said:
So. So? Well. I just don't know any more...

There are dangers to critique groups. There are also benefits. When someone begins submitting work to agents, the prose needs to be at near-professional level and polished to a shine. Some writers cannot develop the necessary objectivity to do that on their own, or at least not at first. They need help in the early stages with learning to spot the common pitfalls and errors. Critique groups can help with this.

But it's also true that they can strip all the life and originality out of a budding writer's work...if the writer lets them. It all very much depends on the critiquing skill of the other writers, as well as the critiqued writer's ability to sift the grain from the chaff.

I was a member of an online critique group in the early stages of my writing. It was tremendously helpful. I think it cut years off my learning curve. But I was lucky enough going in to have a sound sense of my own voice and my own goals with the writing, and I also had fairly good analytical skills (probably due to my degree in English Lit), so I was able to tell a good critique from a bad one most of the time. I think that ability is crucial; otherwise, James is right and the critique group will iron all the interesting wrinkles out your work.

Nil Desperandum · Feb 18, 2015

When I run chapters past our workshop I'm looking for feedback on the writing per se. I do, however, include a synopsis of the story to that point to give the readers a sense of context. It's tough to have a group of people, many of whom do not regularly attend workshop meetings, provide an overall review of a novel's structure, pacing, and character development. Therefore, I just ask for comments on clarity, description, dialogue, and language.

When I'm ready for an overview of the work as a whole, I turn to my beta readers, but only after I've polished it as well as I can. I'm lucky to have friends in the workshop, and outside it as well, whose judgment I respect and trust. Once that has been done, and another set of revisions made, I contact the gal that has done my editing in the past (yes, I pay her). Only when that process is finished do I start sending queries.

Workshopping a longer work can be productive, but your expectations have to be realistic.

JHFC · Feb 18, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
Why not just let a professional agent or editor look at it. No one person in a hundred has a clue what they want. But if you want a same old, same old novel, critique groups are perfect for generating one.

I understand what you are saying here, what I don't understand is how I get an agent or editor to look at something just to critique.

I imagine they are busy and unless I wrote something good enough to want them to consider it in the first place I don't see them having time to devote to a project like that.

Again, I'm still unpublished so I'm sincerely asking, because you might understand the business better than me.

Edit: I should say being married to an editor (but not the sort I need, ha), she usually covers this territory for me. And she isn't nice when it comes to that, so I don't have to worry about her holding back. She flat out refused to read my first novel after the first few pages, it was so terrible.

Debbie V · Feb 18, 2015

I've been in a few groups. Some give a summary before the reading. In my current one, we send the earlier part of the novel as a separate document. It isn't critiqued, but you have the option to read it if you feel lost by the parts you are supposed to critique. Sometimes I read it, sometimes I ignore it. It depends on how much I remember of the story and how much seems to have been changed.

Ashleythewriter77 · Feb 23, 2015

I agree with the above poster who says to give a quick summary of the changes.

I'm in a novel critique group right now, too, and there is a woman who is changing her story pretty often and sometimes drastically as we go. Sometimes she'll resubmit the chapters or sometimes she'll just summarize the changes. Either way I think it's fine.

How to workshop a novel with a critique group

rquinlivan

Newbie

BethS

InspectorFarquar

Maryn

Baaa!

beckethm

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Jamesaritchie

Jo Zebedee

space opera-popcorn lover!

CrastersBabies

Burninator!

Fruitbat

.

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Coconut

neandermagnon

Nolite timere, consilium callidum habeo!

BethS

Nil Desperandum

JHFC

Debbie V

Mentoring Myself and Others

Ashleythewriter77

Ashley