Strategies for Plot Revisions

Perhaps you'll find this helpful. The Holly Lisle One-Pass Revision

http://hollylisle.com/one-pass-manuscript-revision-from-first-draft-to-last-in-one-cycle/

I whine to my betas / writing group. For some reason they not only put up with me, but they help me brainstorm.

(I'm waiting for them to figure out they don't actually have to talk to me. I suspect someone might be paying them.)

Have you shown the book to other people for critique?

If it's your own personal third pass, and you're still fiddling with the plot because you're not happy with it, I think you need a fresh pair of eyes on the manuscript. Personally, I try not to do *too* much revision before getting a CP on the case because it can result in me doing unnecessary work. It can be really hard to see what actually needs help when you've been close to a story for so long.

Also you shouldn't really need to do plot revisions by draft 3. Writers who don't outline usually go through 2 drafts before they get the plot set. Writers who outline do the outline and then revise in the 1 draft and have their plot set. It sounds like you have some things you're unhappy about with the novel. In addition to getting it beta read, you might want to consider cutting/shortening those pieces, or leaving the novel aside for a couple months and coming back to it.

Imbroglio said:

Yeah, right now I'm actually just drafting up lots of ideas for changes that I'm going to go over with my beta readers at the end of March.

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Perfect. Then you've earned yourself a break!

Try to think in terms of story revision, not just plot revision.

caw

Coconut said:

Also you shouldn't really need to do plot revisions by draft 3. Writers who don't outline usually go through 2 drafts before they get the plot set. Writers who outline do the outline and then revise in the 1 draft and have their plot set. It sounds like you have some things you're unhappy about with the novel. In addition to getting it beta read, you might want to consider cutting/shortening those pieces, or leaving the novel aside for a couple months and coming back to it.

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It REALLY varies for each writer. I've heard lots of people say they're on like draft #9, #10, etc. Others write one draft.

I don't outline and I write one rough draft, then it's on to edits. I concentrate most on the plot during the rough draft.

Whatever works for the writer. There's no right or wrong way to do it.

chompers said:

It REALLY varies for each writer. I've heard lots of people say they're on like draft #9, #10, etc. Others write one draft.

I don't outline and I write one rough draft, then it's on to edits. I concentrate most on the plot during the rough draft.

Whatever works for the writer. There's no right or wrong way to do it.

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I would agree. I am new to this, and I am in my first revision of my first novel. I have ideas for three or four more stories for my protagonist. That means a series. With that in mind I have inserted some elements that set up a sequel and axed one chapter because of that.

I find the exercises in Donald Maass's FIRE IN FICTION useful for full draft revision that deepens both character and plot.

Layla Nahar said:

Perhaps you'll find this helpful. The Holly Lisle One-Pass Revision

http://hollylisle.com/one-pass-manuscript-revision-from-first-draft-to-last-in-one-cycle/

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I came here to post this exactly, but Layla beat me. Very good editing techniques here.

Coconut said:

Also you shouldn't really need to do plot revisions by draft 3. Writers who don't outline usually go through 2 drafts before they get the plot set.

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Citation on this? I'm asking because this has not been my personal experience as a pantser. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never had anyone tell me this.

I've seen the old "three drafts" thing tossed out (I think King has it in On Writing), but usually there's a stipulation that it's more a principle than a set in stone number of three separate and complete drafts. I'm wondering if anyone has ever done a poll or survey about the number of drafts that a typical writer has to do before they're satisfied with the results.

Also, what constitutes a draft? Back in the days of the typewriter, I assume it meant a complete retying of a manuscript. But hardly anyone does that anymore. I have at least 20 different files on my computer that represent different "places" in the evolution of my novel. Is each of these a draft? None are really a rewrite in the old-fashioned sense of putting fresh blank paper in a typewriter and starting over.

Some would say that none of these is a new draft at all, but merely stages in the polishing and transformation of the original novel file that I renamed at various places in the process (usually when I decided to cut a major part out, reorganize some of the chapters in a larger way, or add something I wasn't completely sure about).

So by draft, do you mean a completely new, start from scratch, grounds-up rewrite, or a polishing pass, or a partial reqrite of a novel that's mostly in place, but needs some scenes and chapters redone or rearranged?

Writers who outline do the outline and then revise in the 1 draft and have their plot set.

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Not being an outliner, I can't comment on this. But I'd like to see a poll or survey of some kind to back this up too.

The reason I'm saying this is that I'm now having these very squirmy, insecure feelings that maybe I'm hopeless, because I tend to rewrite things many more times than three, and I often come up with some new ideas about plot and characterization on later rewrites too. So does this mean that if I have everything in place by the second draft, my stories are garbage, or my writing skills are?

Roxxsmom said:

I'm wondering if anyone has ever done a poll or survey about the number of drafts that a typical writer has to do before they're satisfied with the results.

Also, what constitutes a draft? ....do you mean a completely new, start from scratch, grounds-up rewrite, or a polishing pass, or a partial reqrite of a novel that's mostly in place, but needs some scenes and chapters redone or rearranged?

....The reason I'm saying this is that I'm now having these very squirmy, insecure feelings that maybe I'm hopeless, because I tend to rewrite things many more times than three, and I often come up with some new ideas about plot and characterization on later rewrites too. So does this mean that if I have everything in place by the second draft, my stories are garbage, or my writing skills are?

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I was wondering the same thing about number/"type" of drafts. There seem to be a plethora of archive threads about this topic so I won't beat the horse, but I'm sure there are MANY legitimate ways to edit a book, just as there are many legit ways to write one.

I will say that for my current WIP, my strategy is to go: big stuff revision/rewrite (plot and other major cleaning), little stuff revision (bizarre wording and character cleaning), then CP annihilation (to show me just how blind my eyes were all along!). Then one more round of polishing before submission.

I'm in the big revision and there are scenes I've passed that need to be added. So my strategy isn't 100% start to finish, but I told myself I can't make a new clean word doc until I've finished the edit. It's good motivation!

This is the first book I'm going to sub out, so you should probably check in about a year from now before taking my post seriously.

Coconut said:

Also you shouldn't really need to do plot revisions by draft 3. Writers who don't outline usually go through 2 drafts before they get the plot set. Writers who outline do the outline and then revise in the 1 draft and have their plot set. It sounds like you have some things you're unhappy about with the novel. In addition to getting it beta read, you might want to consider cutting/shortening those pieces, or leaving the novel aside for a couple months and coming back to it.

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Yeah. Not always. I made significant plot changes with drafts 5, 6, and 8. (That novel was a hot mess of a first draft and took a lot of work, but eventually netted an agent.) Sometimes it takes a while to figure out how to fix the areas that aren't working.

When I'm looking at plot, I usually print out my synopsis (written from what I have written, not just what I intended to write) and then work through any rough spots by writing the outline in a journal. Or using index cards to break up the scenes sequences and rearrange. (Writing by hand is key for this approach. It uses a different part of your brain than fiddling with stuff on the computer.) Once I think I have everything figured out, I type up a new outline/synopsis. Then I print out my MS and notate on the margins where I intend to make changes.

Then I retype the whole thing from the print out, incorporating new material, revising the old stuff, and editing whatever smaller stuff catches my eye as I go. It's a little time consuming (this is one reason why 8 drafts took me six years) but if you're dealing with big revisions it can be helpful in keeping a consistent tone throughout.

Naturally, YMMV.

My drafting process (it may or may not work for you):

1. Outline (the detail of the outline varies greatly by story. I find some types of plots require more careful planning than others).

2. Write first draft.

3. Do revisions on that draft (with feedback from time to time). I don't worry about various drafts. I'd say most of my first draft (in terms of scenes) remains intact. Some of the sentences can be changed a lot, but my story content remains largely the same.

4. Final draft (occurs when the revision process is [hopefully] complete and is not another complete draft in itself).

I use that exactly same process. I don't count the outline a draft, since I usually crunch it out in a month, so I end up with a total of 3 drafts.

There was a story about Isaac Asimov asking famous sci fi writers how many drafts they did and he said he felt pretty happy with himself because he only did 2 - an original and a revision. Then he asked Arthur Clarke and Clarke said something like 'i do 1 draft. Why would anyone need to revise?'

Sane people do not write the way I do. I have many more revisions than Aggy, usually. Plot twists can occur late in the process. I tend to re-read through the whole thing to check for continuity, if I've left the project for over a month. Just the last chapter, if I'm getting back to it faster. But I edit as I write, so my 'first draft' is a misnomer - it's probably had half a dozen changes already.

Can those of you who do a lot of rewrites talk a bit about how long it takes you to finish a novel - from day 1 to ready to send to your editor final version. Also - about how much time do you spend on each draft? I think it's incredible that you guys are able to edit so much...by round 3 or 4, I'm so sick of rewriting the book I need to be done.

Coconut said:

Can those of you who do a lot of rewrites talk a bit about how long it takes you to finish a novel - from day 1 to ready to send to your editor final version. Also - about how much time do you spend on each draft? I think it's incredible that you guys are able to edit so much...by round 3 or 4, I'm so sick of rewriting the book I need to be done.

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It depends on the book, quite frankly.

My first novel took about six years to go from terrible, horrible first draft to polished and submission ready eighth draft. (In the midst of the revisions I did write the first draft of a different novel, a bunch of short stories, a novella, and three or four novelettes.) The first five drafts took about three and a half years to get through. The last three took about two years and were about 6-7 weeks of work each, with gaps in between where I was working on other stuff before looking at the manuscript again.

The next novel I finished took about four months for the first draft and 36 hours for a polishing draft. Somehow it came out in much better condition plot-wise than the other one. (I'd hoped it was a sign I'd figured the novel writing thing out, but the third novel proved that was not the case.)

Novel #3 took about two and a half months to finish the first draft. It was very short, about 43k words. My agent wanted more story though, so I did more revisions for a total of four more drafts over the space of about two and a half months, with a finished/submission ready manuscript of about 54k words.

My patience and interest in a book usually lasts about six months. Then I need to take a break and work on something else for a while. Otherwise I get sick of working on it. If I come back to something after 3-4 months and I still can't figure it out, it goes back on the shelf for a while 'til I find myself thinking about it again.

But not everyone needs a lot of drafts. For me it's just how I tend to work - making multiple passes until I've ironed out all the problems - because it helps me not get overwhelmed by some of the issues I can create for myself and it also allows me to maintain forward momentum when I run into something that's not working. (I used to do the whole "edit as you go" thing and I would stall for months trying to fix a single scene. I started finishing stuff when I moved on to the rest of the story/book and coming back to the problem areas later.) Recognizing that not every book will need the same amount of work has been helpful too.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. That's interesting. Just from that bit, it sounds like the 2 main factors are experience and interest. If you're more interested in a piece you can finish it faster with less revisions, and as you get more experienced, you don't need as many revisions.

I thought it was interesting that the amount of time we spend on drafts is about the same, even though we have different approaches.

Are you an outliner or do you go straight into writing?

Coconut said:

Writers who don't outline usually go through 2 drafts before they get the plot set. Writers who outline do the outline and then revise in the 1 draft and have their plot set. t

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No, not true at all. Writers who don't outline are far, far, far more likely to do only one draft than writers who do outline.

You're not only wrong, you have it completely reversed. I study the working methods of every writer I read, and many I don't read, and have for thirty years.

Prolific writers, those who turn out books quickly, often in in a month or less, or who write a short story a week, or a short story a day, are almost always writers who don't outline.

Writers who do only one draft are also far more likely to be writers who don't outline.

Writers who outline are the ones most likely to do several drafts. I'm sure there are many outliners out there who do otherwise, but I've never known an outliner who managed to write a novel with only one draft.

It's pretty tough to say those of us who don't outline go through more than one draft before we get the plot set when the truth is that most of us don't even plot at all, before, during, or after the story is finished.

Read what writers like King, Bradbury, McCaffrey, or even a literary writer such as Saroyan, have to say about plot. Or any one of a hundred other writers who don't outline.

The simple fact is that it's almost impossible to be truly prolific if it takes two or more drafts just to get the plot set. It's no coincidence that most of teh really prolific writers throughout history were ones who never outlined, and who usually never thought about plot at all.

Jamesaritchie said:

Writers who outline are the ones most likely to do several drafts. I'm sure there are many outliners out there who do otherwise, but I've never known an outliner who managed to write a novel with only one draft.

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This is so interesting-- I wonder why. My guess is that those who outline find themselves sticking to the outline while those who don't let the story carry them where it goes naturally.

I don't outline so I liked your post.