Richard III's remains: Leicester car park dug up

firedrake · Sep 15, 2012

Shakesbear said:
I also think it is a bit of a shame - but it could be difficult and divisive. If it is RIII, well, he was a Catholic, and although Westminster Abbey was Catholic until the Reformation it is now C of E. So burying him in a C of E place might offend some people - though there is a paradox in that most of the Kings and Queens buried there were Catholics. James I had his mother, Mary Queen of Scots moved from Peterborough Cathedral and buried in the Abbey even though she was Catholic and the Abbey was, by then C of E. All this religious stuff is giving me a headache!

It's a bit mad that, in this day and age, a few Anglicans would get their knickers in a twist over a Catholic king being buried in the Abbey.

Shakesbear · Sep 15, 2012

firedrake said:
It's a bit mad that, in this day and age, a few Anglicans would get their knickers in a twist over a Catholic king being buried in the Abbey.

LOL! I agree! I think it is all to do with that lovely word 'protocol'. And there isn't, to the best of my knowledge, a protocol that deals with this situation. If this is the sort of problem that finding RIII causes, then imagine if St Thomas Becket's bones were found! I think they would very quietly re-inter them, if they haven't already.

Priene · Sep 16, 2012

Shakesbear said:
So burying him in a C of E place might offend some people - though there is a paradox in that most of the Kings and Queens buried there were Catholics.

So if we inter my Mum's Catholic ashes in the same village plot as my Protestant father, some C of E'ers would be offended? Or is this something to do with cathedrals?

Shakesbear · Sep 16, 2012

Priene said:
So if we inter my Mum's Catholic ashes in the same village plot as my Protestant father, some C of E'ers would be offended? Or is this something to do with cathedrals?

Possibly some might be offended - and they might try to make things difficult for the priest. For some people it is very important and, on the other hand, some people cannot understand what the fuss is about.

I don't think it is to do with Cathedrals but denominations - possibly the same in SOME other religions.

Priene · Sep 16, 2012

Shakesbear said:
Cathedrals but denominations - possibly the same in SOME other religions.

I think if they want to be consistent about it, they should follow it up by exhuming the bodies of every other Catholic buried in what's currently Protestant ground. Particularly the pre-Reformation ones. Maybe they could convert that Leicester car park into a Mediaeval Papist Zone.

(Although I suspect some C of E'ers may not have grasped what 'Established' church actually means. It means there are tons of Catholics, Jews, Muslims and non-Conformists buried under their parochial turf.)

Shakesbear · Sep 16, 2012

Priene said:
I think if they want to be consistent about it, they should follow it up by exhuming the bodies of every other Catholic buried in what's currently Protestant ground. Particularly the pre-Reformation ones. Maybe they could convert that Leicester car park into a Mediaeval Papist Zone.

Consistent? When has religion every been consistent

Priene said:
(Although I suspect some C of E'ers may not have grasped what 'Established' church actually means. It means there are tons of Catholics, Jews, Muslims and non-Conformists buried under their parochial turf.)

I can only answer from a Jewish perspective. As Jews were banned from England from 1290-1645ish there would not have been any Jewish burials. From the 1640s to the present I think that Jewish cemeteries are well documented.

Priene · Sep 16, 2012

Shakesbear said:
I can only answer from a Jewish perspective. As Jews were banned from England from 1290-1645ish there would not have been any Jewish burials. From the 1640s to the present I think that Jewish cemeteries are well documented.

Catholics were bured in parish graveyards alongside everyone else (well, I'm not sure about Jewish burials). Before 1830ish, there weren't any Catholic churches and therefore no graveyards, so there's no tradition in England of burying Catholics in Catholic graveyards. In fact, I've never heard of a Catholic graveyard, though there probably are some.

There was a big kerfuffle back in Victorian times in (I think) Essex when the local C of E vicar took exception to nonconformists being buried in his church's graveyard. The upshot was that the C of E lost and burials went on there as they always had. So the Established church has no tradition of insisting on only C of E burials take place in their plots. Which doesn't mean some of their members won't try to create one.

Shakesbear · Sep 16, 2012

I very much doubt if Jews were buried in Christian cemeteries for all sorts of reasons - one is the time factor. Burial has to take place within 48 hours (I think that is the same for Muslims) and that is easier to achieve if the community owns the cemetery. I also think, but am not sure, that some cemeteries had sections for Catholic burials. I suppose out of respect? Rather like the cemetery my parents are buried in, which is run by the Union of Liberal and Progressive Jews, having a section for the Spanish and Portuguese Jews. Death can get so complicated. I wonder, if it is RIII, if the 'authorities' will need a death certificate to allow him to be buried.

Just found this:

Prior to the existence of these Catholic graveyards, and even after they had been established, many Catholics were buried in Church of England graveyards, particularly if the family had a long attachment to the church such as Sefton Parish Church. There will usually be a note in the register to indicate the burial is of a Catholic, Papist, Romanist etc.

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcburials/

Haggis · Sep 16, 2012

Shakesbear said:
I wonder, if it is RIII, if the 'authorities' will need a death certificate to allow him to be buried.

Good question. So much is done "by the book" nowadays. Still, if all he is is a pile of bones with the people part scraped off, it's a fairly certain thing that he is indeed dead, and I would hope we might be able to avoid the bureaucracy.

Shakesbear · Sep 16, 2012

Haggis said:
Good question. So much is done "by the book" nowadays. Still, if all he is is a pile of bones with the people part scraped off, it's a fairly certain thing that he is indeed dead, and I would hope we might be able to avoid the bureaucracy.

LOL! I can almost imagine a sort of Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch scenario . . .

Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this King what I dug up not three months ago from this very car park.
Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Richard III. What's,uh...What's wrong with him?
Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with him, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with him!
Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead king when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Owner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable king, the Richard III, didn’t, ay? Beautiful bones!
Mr. Praline: The bones don't enter into it. He’s stone dead.
Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!

Original script is here: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ebarnes/python/dead-parrot.htm

Haggis · Sep 16, 2012

CassandraW · Sep 16, 2012

oh, I think he's just pining for the fjords.

MaryMumsy · Sep 17, 2012

CassandraW said:
oh, I think he's just pining for the fjords.

You beat me to it. That was my first thought.

MM

RichardGarfinkle · Sep 17, 2012

This is an Ex-Plantagenet!

Xelebes · Sep 17, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
This is an Ex-Plantagenet!

Sorry, but either the references are getting more obscure or I'm missing out on some bad punning here.

Magdalen · Sep 17, 2012

(A) Sir Nigel & (B) Rufus have quite humourous poetic observations on this topic over in 'Crit!!

A). http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254707

B). http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254386

RichardGarfinkle · Sep 17, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
This is an Ex-Plantagenet!

Xelebes said:
Sorry, but either the references are getting more obscure or I'm missing out on some bad punning here.

I'm just riffing on the "This is an Ex-Parrot" line in the parrot sketch variation that Shakesbear started.

Haggis · Sep 17, 2012

Magdalen said:
(A) Sir Nigel & (B) Rufus have quite humourous poetic observations on this topic over in 'Crit!!

A). http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254707

B). http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254386

Both not only funny but extremely well done. Bravo to the poets and thanks for the links, Magdalen.

Shakesbear · Sep 17, 2012

Xelebes said:
Sorry, but either the references are getting more obscure or I'm missing out on some bad punning here.

My bad. Please go and look at post 160 - I played around with the Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch. I had no idea it would take off . . . not that a dead parrot can take off . . .

Haggis · Sep 17, 2012

Shakesbear said:
My bad. Please go and look at post 160 - I played around with the Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch. I had no idea it would take off . . . not that a dead parrot can take off . . .

Stop it! You're killing me.

firedrake · Sep 17, 2012

Shakesbear said:
My bad. Please go and look at post 160 - I played around with the Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch. I had no idea it would take off . . . not that a dead parrot can take off . . .

It might if you vroom 10,000 volts up its arse.

Shakesbear · Sep 17, 2012

firedrake said:
It might if you vroom 10,000 volts up its arse.

I'll give it a try if you sweep the feathers up.

Shakesbear · Sep 27, 2012

Interesting article about Michael Ibsen, who is descended from Richard's sister Anne. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19731622

I sat and stared at the pic of Mr Ibsen and I wondered if the remains are of Richard III if there will be a facial reconstruction. I hope so.

CassandraW · Sep 27, 2012

I've been hoping for a facial reconstruction, too!

Tepelus · Sep 28, 2012

That would be awesome!

Richard III's remains: Leicester car park dug up

practical experience, FTW

knows a hawk from a handsaw

Out to lunch

knows a hawk from a handsaw

Out to lunch

knows a hawk from a handsaw

Out to lunch

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Evil, undead Chihuahua

knows a hawk from a handsaw

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knows a hawk from a handsaw

And so...