Do you have a right to privacy (and to call Obama a "nigger?")

Torgo

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This kind of comes back to a point I think someone else made: Should minors be allowed to distribute their personal information to hundreds of thousands of people in the first place?

Because making it the responsibility of the messenger to remove it relies on much more generosity than the average person has. Mind you, that wouldn't actually make it hard for someone to connect the tweet to the person who posted it. A quick copy and paste (even of a portion if the tweet) will once again bring you to the individual's name, location and photo.

Dunno about the whole issue of what minors ought to be able to say - I mean, I think in general the less regulation of speech the better - but it concerns me that kids are welcomed in to social networks as young as 13 (officially; Facebook is the most popular site for kids 7-12, supposedly before they can sign up.)

If you're not paying for a service like Facebook or Twitter, then you are the product. Your data and its value to advertisers is what keeps Facebook afloat; FB is particularly promiscuous about sharing by default, at least last time I checked (the constant changes don't help keep a grip on it), and though they do restrict a good deal of info to friends if you're 13-17, there's a lot flying about. I am certainly concerned that teens on Facebook are giving away more than they realize or that they (or their parents) might be comfortable with.

All that aside, if you have picked up and are posting personal info about a minor online without consent, that's terrible behaviour. I can see an argument for highlighting the content of a racist tweet or update in order to make a point, but then as you say a quick search of Twitter brings up the kid who said it.

Adults, in all this, are fair game, I think. Your responsibility as an adult to own your words, and if you want to be anonymous to avoid the Twitchfork mobs, your responsibility to carefully protect your anonymity.
 

Chrissy

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That's if you think racists getting their asses handed to them is a bad thing. If they said any of the things they said on twitter in a lunchroom full of black students (or as they would say, niggers) you can be sure no-one would just walk away as if they'd asked for ketchup. There would be a fight. They would get their asses kicked. It would be their problem. I would not care.
Well, to go all "mama" on you, this is not a very mature way to look at it, IMO. Violence is not a appropriate response to a bunch of hateful words.

I, btw, am no shining example of intelligence for my peers. It always astounds me when people on the internet can't believe I'm actually the age I say I am. These are just idiots. They are not an average sample of teenage intelligence.
I agree that they are idiots, and not a representative sample of teens, but there are lots of teens like them. Plus, some of them probably have been raised in this terrible kind of attitude, and they're just parroting, and they think they know everything. (Why did the woman say "no thanks" to the encyclopedia salesman? Because she already had a teenager! :D)

Adults on this very thread have said they've done stupid stuff as kids that they'd never do now. Same here. There are reasons why we have decided to classify people into minors and adults. This is one of them, IMO.
 

mccardey

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Adults on this very thread have said they've done stupid stuff as kids that they'd never do now. Same here. There are reasons why we have decided to classify people into minors and adults. This is one of them, IMO.

But Chrissy, aren't you then saying that the right of these "kids" to be absolved of responsibility for the things they say trumps the right of the people they're hurting? Surely the behaviour should be stopped, rather than just excused in order to make some adults feel better about things they might have done at that age?
 

Torgo

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But Chrissy, aren't you then saying that the right of these "kids" to be absolved of responsibility for the things they say trumps the right of the other kids they're hurting? Surely the behaviour should be stopped, rather than just excused in order to make us feel better about things some adults might have done at that age?

The behaviour should be stopped. That isn't necessarily the same thing as letting internet mobs deal with it.
 

mccardey

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The behaviour should be stopped. That isn't necessarily the same thing as letting internet mobs deal with it.

No, and I haven't said it is. I don't think tumblr's the way I'd like to see it dealt with - I've said that. But I don't think "Oh well - kids!" is adequate response. Because lets remember that most of the people they're hurting are also going to be kids.
 

Torgo

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No, and I haven't said it is. I don't think tumblr's the way I'd like to see it dealt with - I've said that. But I don't think "Oh well - kids!" is adequate response.

The 'kids' part of it, from where I stand, is just about not putting them in the pillory in the public square.
 

Chrissy

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But Chrissy, aren't you then saying that the right of these "kids" to be absolved of responsibility for the things they say trumps the right of the people they're hurting? Surely the behaviour should be stopped, rather than just excused in order to make some adults feel better about things they might have done at that age?

The question is, how to stop the behavior? If these were my kids or my students, they would want to slit their wrists with a plastic knife by the time I was one-third of the way done with my lecture. Seriously, there would be a major conversation, in which I would employ logic and reason and facts and mutual discourse get to the bottom of these attitudes.

The behaviour should be stopped. That isn't necessarily the same thing as letting internet mobs deal with it.

Right.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over these kids being posted on the website, honestly. Doesn't mean I think the website was appropriate.

ETA: Also, I don't think anyone is saying "Oh Well." But yeah, they are still kids.
 

mccardey

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The 'kids' part of it, from where I stand, is just about not putting them in the pillory in the public square.

And in order not to pillory them, we're supposed to just ignore the other kids who are hurt by the bullying? Or teach them to toughen up and not to mind?

I'm just not seeing that one either says "oh well" or does a public pillory via internet. There must be other options...
 

Toothpaste

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Except here's the thing. It might not be morally right (I'm still on the fence about it) but it's not illegal. And there is a part of me that thinks that these so called kids (why are we calling teens kids?) might learn a very good lesson about the nature of privacy and the internet. We try to teach youth (and quite frankly adults as well) that nothing on the net is private, not even when it is a private blog etc (trust me, I had a friend lose out on a job because she thought her private blog was being kept, you know, private). That it certainly is not private when you post to Twitter. And look how easy it is for you to get in trouble and for people to find out where you are. Nothing that has been posted about these kids wasn't posted by the kids themselves. But now because it's all compiled in one space it's wrong? Once the information is out there people can use it as they wish, for good or evil.

Personally I am so disgusted by these so called kids that I'm having a hard time getting up in arms about the consequences of their actions. I am tired of people thinking that they are above reproach and are allowed to do whatever they want cause "freedom of speech man!". The sense of entitlement that goes with teens these days is astonishing. These kids are stupid enough to be racist and stupid enough to post their info online. Now, do I approve of people going and hurting these kids, hunting them down to hurt them? Uh yeah. That's illegal and wrong. Has that happened yet? But schools being informed, and consequences of what they've said happening by proper authority figures? Not so worried about that. And shaming them? Yeah, not so worried about that either.

I get that there's a fear of some mob with pitchforks assaulting these kids . . . but is that actually happening? Aside from online ganging up (and again, not so fussed about that - some of the things they said were so evil and hateful they deserve a little ganging up I think), has anyone actually be harmed? Is it the potential we are speaking to? Because if so, let's talk about the potential for their hate speech to incite hate. To incite people to hurt African Americans etc.
 

Torgo

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And in order not to pillorise them, we're supposed to just ignore the other kids who are hurt by the bullying? Or teach them to toughen up and not to mind?

Neither of those sound like good solutions, eh. I particularly hate the latter. No, I'd say in the first instance that these kids have people looking after them, at home and at school, and that they ought to be the people who deal with it. If they need it brought to their attention, fine; but doing that in public, with personally-identifying information, is bang out of order.
 

mccardey

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Neither of those sound like good solutions, eh. I particularly hate the latter. No, I'd say in the first instance that these kids have people looking after them, at home and at school, and that they ought to be the people who deal with it. If they need it brought to their attention, fine; but doing that in public, with personally-identifying information, is bang out of order.

Which is why I suggested a note to the Head and to the school board and perhaps to the local education representative and so on up, suggesting that this is the sort of thing the general public cares about as well. Make the system work.
 

missesdash

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I've actually seen the outcome of this many times. The immediate reaction is embarrassment and sometimes denial. Then time passes and the shit is *still* circulating and they'll often admit that were being stupid or what they said was stupid. Or they'll say they were "hacked" which at least means they're ashamed.

One of the effects of talking to like minds is neutralization of your shitty beliefs. I think this offsets that in a relatively benign way.

It is really really important that people are challenged on their opinions.
 

thebloodfiend

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Well, to go all "mama" on you, this is not a very mature way to look at it, IMO. Violence is not a appropriate response to a bunch of hateful words.
Whatever your opinion on violence might be, in RL, they'd get their asses handed to them. They're getting off easy with this tumblr page. In a way, the internet is sheltering them from the effects of the real world.

Mature or not (and I don't care, but I'll take the comment with the condescension, thank you) it's what would happen. I'm simply telling you the truth. Put one of these idiots in a room full of black kids, let them spew any one of their racist tweets, and they'd get beat up. Wrong or right (I have no opinion on the matter) they'd get beat up.
I agree that they are idiots, and not a representative sample of teens, but there are lots of teens like them. Plus, some of them probably have been raised in this terrible kind of attitude, and they're just parroting, and they think they know everything. (Why did the woman say "no thanks" to the encyclopedia salesman? Because she already had a teenager! :D)

Adults on this very thread have said they've done stupid stuff as kids that they'd never do now. Same here. There are reasons why we have decided to classify people into minors and adults. This is one of them, IMO.
What Mccardey said. I find it abhorrent that the feelings of the "poor" past and present racists trumps my feelings on being called a nigger specifically because I voted for Obama and have brown skin. Ignoring them will not solve anything. This website did not cause a problem. The kids did. The website simply highlighted a problem.

If you did stupid things when you were a kid, that is also your problem. There are plenty kids who never did stupid things to the magnitude of this. To say, "but they're kids," is to give a pass to all bullying in any form simply because "they're kids." The majority of kids know this is wrong.

And in two or three years (or now, because a great deal of them are actually already 18) these will be "adults." They will be able to vote and you will be interacting with them as "functioning" members of society.

Unless someone can tell me the proper way to cleanse racism without shame and intimidation? Those poor racists, always shamed and intimidated for hating people who aren't like them.

Unlike what many would like to believe, "From Superman to Man" is fiction. It'd be nice if all "racism" could be cured like that, but it took both the Malcolm X and the MLK Jr to get things done.
 

Chrissy

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Whatever your opinion on violence might be, in RL, they'd get their asses handed to them. They're getting off easy with this tumblr page. In a way, the internet is sheltering them from the effects of the real world.

Mature or not (and I don't care, but I'll take the comment with the condescension, thank you) it's what would happen. I'm simply telling you the truth. Put one of these idiots in a room full of black kids, let them spew any one of their racist tweets, and they'd get beat up. Wrong or right (I have no opinion on the matter) they'd get beat up.
I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm just stating what I see as fact. Violence is not the solution. You say you don't care. Maybe someday you will. Or not. Maybe it will take you having a child of your own before you decide you'd rather he not get into a fight, or go to jail for assault and battery after someone called him the n-word and he "fucked them up." Or maybe you'll be proud of him.

What Mccardey said. I find it abhorrent that the feelings of the "poor" past and present racists trumps my feelings on being called a nigger specifically because I voted for Obama and have brown skin. Ignoring them will not solve anything. This website did not cause a problem. The kids did. The website simply highlighted a problem.

If you did stupid things when you were a kid, that is also your problem. There are plenty kids who never did stupid things to the magnitude of this. To say, "but they're kids," is to give a pass to all bullying in any form simply because "they're kids."
No one has given bullying a pass here. Some have speculated that these kids may be actually also be bullying other kids, but that is not what the OP is about and there isn't any evidence of this. I would certainly not be saying "but they're just kids" if they were bullying other kids.

And I'm not saying "poor kids" either. I'm saying, KIDS.

AND, I'm not saying they shouldn't be called out for what they're saying. They need a lot of things, starting with a bit of common sense about the internet, and ending with a major paradigm shift about what it means to be a human being on planet earth.

But the website isn't going to accomplish this, IMO. Well, maybe the internet part. But is it the appropriate way? Not at all, IMO.

The majority of kids know this is wrong.
And this a good thing.
 

thebloodfiend

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Last word before I'm off to class:

I don't have a response to the first paragraph. You're taking it somewhere I never intended it to go. For the last time, I'm only telling you what would happen if they opened their mouths in the real world. The internet is a much softer place for racism than real life.

Read the twitter feeds. They are cyberbullying blacks and gays who dare tell them they're wrong. If saying "I'd hang a fag like you in my neighborhood" isn't bullying, I don't know what is.

Kids. Yeah. Remember the story about the "kid" who taped his roommate (Tyler Clementi) having sex and showed it to the world. The roommate killed himself. But he was 18. Almost, but not quite a kid. Just two years older than these kids.
 

mccardey

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No one has given bullying a pass here. Some have speculated that these kids may be actually also be bullying other kids, but that is not what the OP is about and there isn't any evidence of this..

Chrissy, cyber-bullying is bullying. And for the most part so is racism.
 

Chrissy

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Chrissy, cyber-bullying is bullying. And for the most part so is racism.
mccardey, I didn't see any cyberbullying. To me, cyber-bullying is singling out a person and harrassing them about... whatever. Was this happening? Tweeting horrific insults to the world at large (who has the option of not reading them) isn't bullying.

The OP article wasn't about cyber-bullying. It was about making racist statements and being re-tweeted and called out as racists for doing so.

If someone is being bullied, that's a whole nother story, and they should be reported to their parents/school admin. Well, they should be reported to someone, even if they weren't bullying. If I were the parent of one of these kids, I'd damn sure want to know what was going on. I thought your idea was a fine one.
 
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mccardey

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mccardey, I didn't see any cyberbullying. To me, cyber-bullying is singling out a person and harrassing them about... whatever. Was this happening? Tweeting horrific insults to the world at large (who has the option of not reading them) isn't bullying.

The OP article wasn't about cyber-bullying. It was about making racist statements and being re-tweeted and called out as racists for doing so.

If someone is being bullied, that's a whole nother story, and they should be reported to their parents/school admin. Well, they should be reported to someone, even if they weren't bullying. If I were the parent of one of these kids, I'd damn sure want to know what was going on. I thought your idea was a fine one.

Of course it's bullying. It sure as hell isn't nuanced political discourse. They're not arguing policy tracts, they're arguing skin. They're not making statements alone in the bathroom, they're not even sending them out to the anonymous world, they're sending them out to their friends. And they want to have their friends back them publically. Us against Them. because of Their Colour.

If you decide that bullying is only bullying if a singular victim can prove the intent of the bullies, then bullying in a whole lot of guises is going to get a free pass.
 

fireluxlou

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And on a more general note, racists are also apparently upset about the American music awards last night -- Oppa Gangnam Style!

Poor racists - collated like this.

Poor poor racists were also upset that Godfrey Gao an Asian was cast in an Asian role in Cassandra Clare's Mortal Instruments film adaption. And that black character roles went to black actors in Hunger Games.... could go on.

Personally though I'll never understand how people will defend to death someones right to hateful things about my race, my sexuality, my gender but will call it unfair if I disagree with those hateful things because 'opinions'. Like half the time it feels people defending their right to say hateful things, to say hate speech about my race, my identity etc trumps my right to be treated as a human. Loosing battle for me anyway to be treated as a human.
 
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Chrissy

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Of course it's bullying. It sure as hell isn't nuanced political discourse. They're not arguing policy tracts, they're arguing skin. They're not making statements alone in the bathroom, they're not even sending them out to the anonymous world, they're sending them out to their friends. And they want to have their friends back them publically. Us against Them. because of Their Colour.

If you decide that bullying is only bullying if a singular victim can prove the intent of the bullies, then bullying in a whole lot of guises is going to get a free pass.
I don't mean singular as in "one person," I mean singling out a person or people and harrassing them.

Bullying, to me, is relentless antagonism by bully to victim(s). The victim is subjected to it, in school, or by their email or on their social media, or else making statements on other media that name them by name. In other words, the victim cannot be free of it.

If a person chooses to engage in an internet conversation with a random racist they find on a FB page, and gets called ugly names, that's not bullying, IMO.

I'm not saying everyone should run away from racists. I'm glad people are willing to engage with them to call them out on their own twitter/facebook pages, but calling people names and insulting them in the midst of a voluntary exchange is not bullying, in my opinion.
 

thebloodfiend

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Once again. Read the twitter feeds. You will find bullying. Bullying that even adheres to your definition of bullying.

Or are the tweets I posted not actually bullying by some odd definition of modern bullying? You know, hanging fags. Jeesh.
 

Williebee

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Of course it's bullying. It sure as hell isn't nuanced political discourse. They're not arguing policy tracts, they're arguing skin. They're not making statements alone in the bathroom, they're not even sending them out to the anonymous world, they're sending them out to their friends. And they want to have their friends back them publically...

By this logic, the tumblr site would also be bullying. Even moreso, as it is aimed at specific individuals.
 

CQuinlan

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By this logic, the tumblr site would also be bullying. Even moreso, as it is aimed at specific individuals.

I have quoted you. If you had said something shameful and people voiced that they were against it because of my quote-that doesn't mean I have bullied you because I have done nothing but repeat your exact words (said in public) in another public place.
 

Xelebes

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I actually perused the website. I didn't find any links to accounts. I saw they attached the names to the tweet but as I don't use Twitter, I have no access to their account. So. . . what's the problem?