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Melanie Mills

Victoria

Agents

>>It seems the first time or unpublished authors have little chance of getting decent representation. The reasons are obvious. Most cannot be sold to publishers with the resources or inclination to invest in an unknown. Those that do sell will get tiny advances.<<

I know it can seem this way, and I truly understand the frustration of the quest for publication. But many, many first-time authors are able to find excellent representation, and to sell to commercial publishers. I know many who've done so. And take a look at the reviews in a few issues of Publishers Weekly, or subscribe to the Publishers Lunch newsletter, and you'll see how many first-time authors are making sales via reputable agents.

It's certainly true that the advance for an unknown is often smaller than for someone who has proved him/herself (on the other hand, new authors' advances can be sky-high for exactly the same reason--the new writer might turn out to be the next J.K. Rowling, whereas the established midlister has already defined his or her likely performance by previous sales). A good agent, however, doesn't take on a writer as a one-shot deal. She isn't looking to represent a single book, but a writing career, and she assumes that the initial sale is just the first of many--hopefully, with steadily increasing advances. Also, her client list includes established writers whose reliable income can balance the greater uncertainty of taking on unknowns (this is one reason to beware of an agent whose list is made up largely or entirely of new writers).

>>I have no experience as a literary agent, although I have represented many businesses of all types. The book-marketing concept can’t be so different from other businesses. The golden rules have to be don’t lie, disclose everything and sell only quality products. If enough of you were interested in that type of representation, I would consider having my firm start up a literary agency.<<

Publishing is a small and secretive world, requiring expertise that's not easy to gather without actually working or participating in it--including the ability to recognize marketable writing (this isn't easy; look how many mistakes even established publishers make), a solid understanding of publishing trends and issues both in the US and overseas, and a familiarity with publishing law and publishing contract issues. Plus, and possibly even more important, you need personal contacts within the industry, so that you can bypass the publisher's various gatekeeping methods and get manuscripts directly onto the desks of appropriate editors.

Agencies that don't have this level of expertise really don't offer adequate representation to their clients. Many people believe that just the title "literary agent" is enough to get them through doors that otherwise remain closed; but this really isn't true. Publishing house editors prefer to work with agents they know, either personally or by reputation, since they can trust agents like this to represent marketable work, and to know enough to give them manuscripts that are likely to match their tastes and interests. New, unknown agencies that haven't proved themselves are given much lower priority (unless of course the agent used to be an editor, or has spun off from another established agency--those personal contacts again). If, as often happens, they reveal their lack of experience by doing something obviously unprofessional--submitting inappropriate or substandard work, for instance, or doing cost-saving things like bundling submissions or avoiding snail mail--they are likely to be relegated to the slush pile along with the unagented writers.

I know this sounds harsh. But you can't just become a literary agent, any more than you can just become a real estate agent or a building contractor. There's expertise involved, and some degree of training and/or apprenticeship is necessary if you want to provide adequate service. Otherwise, and with the best intentions in the world, you may wind up doing your clients more harm than good

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.sfwa.org/beware/
 

jeffthefish

Victoria's advice

I was expecting naysayers from the bitter and rejected, but not from you, Victoria. In my 25 years practicing law, I've yet to encounter a business that one could not become educated about in a relatively short time and never saw one where the players didn't want to talk about what they do. As for you cynics, I believe there are folks out there who want to help newcomers into their field. As for contacts, I agree. Having none is a definite negative that will probably lead me to conclude such a venture is not worth the effort. But I believe sending quality queries on worthwhile projects will quickly create those contacts. It struck me as strange how so much depends on the queries the agent sends out, yet rarely does the author ever see what the agent was saying about the work. That's one thing I would do differently. Look, if you aren't interested, that's fine. I don't write to make a living and I sure don't expect to agent to make one. But if it can be fun, challenging and do some good for some good people, that's fine with me. Victoria, I have reasonable expectations and only would represent those who do, as well. That's the way I'd do this venture and the way I practice law. But thanks for your advice and insight. If I decide to do it, I'd love to get more input from you. I know you've learned so much running this service.
 

SRHowen

I'm not bitter--and--

I agree with Victoria completely. Publishing is a skill, agenting is as well. Take a look at www.zackcompany.com see where he came from, his education, his background, his work history before he became an agent. It's on the home page.

Then take a look at his client list--as Victoria stated, he has established clients--Leonard Nimoy and John DeLanci(Alien Voices on his client list.) Peter David as well as many others who sell regularly. BUT--over half his clients are/were never before sold a novel people.

He edits his clients work, he stays in contact with you at all times, he regularly lets you know where your work is at as far as sales go, he keeps you abreast of book sellers out there who want certain books--(such as the K.I.S.S series of books among others)--those looking for writer. Heck if you're stuck on an idea he'll give you one to run with.

He's a member of the AAR--and is part of their organization as more than a simple member.

He has the experience and know how to sell a book.

Honestly--if you have never done publishing or editing or even worked in a book store for that matter--I would not want you for an agent.

Yes that's harsh--but it's the facts.

As I said I work in publishing, I am not bitter--I have represention with Andy Zack. I am listed there under SRHowen and my book Medicine Man. And Andy is not just interested in this one title he is interested in helping my career. Fee free I might add and we have spent a lot of hours getting my book just right--fee free.

Can you honestly devote that kind of time? It's not just a matter of sending out good queries. An agent has to meet face to face with publishers and be someone they trust. Do you know what is going ot be popular two years from now? An agent has to be able to guess that--it takes a year sometimes longer for a bok to get to the shelves from contract to print. Even getting an agent--it can take a year to sell--so maybe two years. Do you have an english major--can you edit?

IMHO

Shawn
 

Victoria

Agents

But the thing is, successful agents _don't_ query. They pick up the phone, and because they know the editor they're calling, or are known to the editor by reputation, the editor takes their call. A good agent can pitch your ms. one day, and have it in the editor's office the next. It's only unknown, inexperienced or obviously unprofessional agents who are subjected to the query runaround, and have to wait weeks or even months for a response, just like unagented writers do.

The whole point of getting an agent is not having to deal with the runaround. More and more, I'm becoming convinced that the only kind of agent worth having is a top-flight agent. Mediocre and marginal agents don't do a great deal better than a diligent, well-educated writer could do on his or her own; in fact, they can do actual harm by misrepresenting their abilities or wasting the writer's time. The doors that are closed to unagented writers are just as closed to marginal agents.

I find it so strange that people understand the challenges and difficulties of finding publication, yet think it's easy to become a literary agent. Look, if you wanted to sell real estate, you'd have to take instruction and pass exams. If you wanted to be a building contractor, you'd have to learn how to put up buildings. Why should it be different with a literary agent? There's a learning process involved. I'm not saying it can't be done by a non-industry insider; but it takes time and effort, and if you take on clients before that learning curve is complete, you won't be serving their best interests.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.sfwa.org/beware
 

jeffthefish

OK, I get it. Try this on.

Seems like my little brainstorm inspired lots of thought by many of you, some responded here, some privately by e-mail. But your negative points are well taken and I appreciate them. Truth be told, the real problem for me would be a lack of available time (as one of you suggested). So I guess I'll scrap this idea. But here's another one for you to ponder. Why not create a limited partnership, screen, publish and market our own products. I do have production facilities, professional readers, editors and two marketing people w/many years of successful experience available. But why couldn't we all help read, edit, screen and promote us? If we got 20 people to each put up $25,000, we could secure an additional credit line of 500,000 for a total working capital of $1,000,000. We could produce 10,000 hard-cover copies of each 100,000 word book for $40,000 (and get terms), and have lots of dollars for promotion. Starting with our five best, we'd have an initial investment of $200,000 and budget $200,000 to initial advertising. Then, who knows? There's been so much consolidation in the publishing business, maybe there's room for a new player. Any interest out there? [email protected]
 

historybuff

Interest

Interested, yes. I've got 3 ms that my test readers tell me is really good stuff. Better than what they read most of the time. I don't think they are blowing smoke up my anal sphincter, not when they all say the same things.
( I do get some cricitical comments as well, I'm not perfect, yet.)

Like Victoria says, the market is just not set up to deal with the multiplicity of decent work out there. A tough fact, but a rewarding one, in a backhanded sort of way. The world, ladies and gentlemen, is a tough town to play.

So, maybe a cooperative publishing effort isn't such a bad deal?
 

Victoria

Work

>>Like Victoria says, the market is just not set up to deal with the multiplicity of decent work out there.<<

I will probably get in trouble for this, but that's not what I intended to imply. I don't subscribe to the notion that the world is awash in wonderful manuscripts that remain undiscovered due to the shortsightedness of the publishing industry or the fact that too few books are published (IMO, far too many books are published). Maybe 10% of what's submitted to publishers even approaches publishability; a far smaller percentage of that is actually publishable. Anyone who has ever looked at a publisher's slush pile will say the same.

Yes, there's a lot of crappy stuff put out by commercial publishers (but there always has been). IMO, this doesn't bespeak the fact that the bad stuff is being selected over the good so much as the fact that publishers' lists are just too large.

Of course there's good work that doesn't find a home. And large commercial houses are generally less willing than in the past to take chances on something they fear won't make money (though at least some of that gap is being filled by bold independents like Macadam/Cage). But given a savvy and persistent author, and a genuninely marketable manuscript, I think the odds are more in the author's favor than not.

As I've said here before, what's hard nowadays isn't to start a career, but to sustain one.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.sfwa.org/beware
 

jeffthefish

Take control

Listen, y'all. I do not "wish" to become a literary agent, a publisher, a real estate agent or center on the Hawks. I am seeking to wind down my practice and have some fun-hopefully with people I can stand. Irrational and illogical rejection sucks. Being judged by others whom you know are intellectually inferior sucks. For those of you who wasted time w/Melanie and wasted energy being nice to her while she was apparently screwing you, take control. That does not mean go find another who might not be any better. It means take the risk. Put your money where your heart is. Anyone can self-publish, but you're doomed to death because you can't reasonably market or afford to promote a single item effectively. This is no different than any other product line in spite of how we'd like to glamorize it. A cooperative plan can work if noone is out to cheat or steal and everyone keeps their eye on the ball. Hey, you don't need to do this with me. But do it. Stop wasting time. And consider this, why should it take 1-3 years to get your book on the shelves when Hillery's took 5 minutes? Just a thought.
 

sfsassenach

I assume your question's rhetorical...

re Hilary.

Publishing is somewhat celebrity-driven, and big names get big advances. In Hilary's case, her book's sold well enough to earn back her advance.

Most of us who write for a living don't have $25K to "invest" in a publishing company. And if I did have that kind of $$, I'd definitely put it in something less volatile!
 

SRHowen

Becoming a book publisher is --

No as easy as you think. It's the contacts again. WCP--recently went from a magazine to an e-book publisher. Figuring everything out ect has taken a long time--a good year. We already have a relationship with Amazon--lucky for us. But try to get say Hastings (big book chain in the south/south west) to put your books on the shelf--whew.

The sad thing is this--as an editor I have seen the stuff people tout to be the next great American story/novel. You may think your work is the greatest on earth, and three other people may say the same--but--even when you think you have perfection in truth there is a lot of work to do yet.

Persistence, patience, and hard work are the only way to get onto the shelves--or into someone's e-book catalog.

Take a look at www.wildchildpublishing.com If you have a quality book--and we publish all genres except porn and erotica--look up our submission guide lines. If you want to try e-book. We have 90,000 readers each month--that is a potential from our site alone of 90,000 shoppers. On top of that WE DO NOT CHARGE ANY FEES--no hidden ones, no hey you need an outside editor--we are professional editors. Sorry we are nto able to pay you an advance yet--soon we hope.

Shawn
Assistant Editor
Science Fiction and Non-fiction
Wild Child publishing .com
 

sfsassenach

Shawn:

The e-book business has yet to make anyone any $$--especially writers.

Your site, which I checked out, doesn't pay contributors, which bothers me.
 

historybuff

getting into trouble

Victoria,
Sorry, didn't mean to put words into your mouth by an over simplification. Your assessment is undoubtedly more astute than mine.8)
 

PiscesChild

This Sure as Hell aint about Melanie anymore

Jeez Louise, people, get over it!

Melanie screwed us. We're all the wiser now. If you gave your info to the various investigators, move on!

I always knew my book was good, so I kept at it, and now I have a rock star NYC lit agency, and now I'm getting offers. BTW The real agencies don;t even make you sign contracts. They have this thing called "reputation". They don't need contracts.

This seems to be a "wallow and lament the fact that I can't get an agent" forum now. You can get an agent, it's just incredibly hard. But it is possible. You have to bust your ass, not spend hours whining on a forum about a con-artist that faked her death.

You need to network contacts. Period. No credible agency will take you on unless you are referred. That is what "no unsolicted ms" means.

Two last things: One, you are totally insane to think you can start a publishing company. If you don't have distribution, advertising, and marketing, you are sunk. I have many friends who lost their asses trying to set up an Independent Press. I'm also shopping a publishing company for investment capital, but only because it is Sander Hicks' new company, the man who founded Soft Skull Press and published "Fortunate Son" about that criminal con-man president of ours. Sander has name recognition, celebrity writers, and a proven sales record. Hence, his proposal has merit. Joe Unknown trying to sell a publishing company (particularly someone like the guy here who obviously knows nothing about the publishing busines) is not gonna get many bites.

Lastly, I am shocked that a group of so-called writers hasn't seen that the greatest plot line on earth just fell into their laps. Stop bitching and start writing about it.

It's been real, but you guys are WAY to depressing for me, and I have moved on. You should too.

Charles Shaw
Author
Chicago, IL
 

hermanmunster

melanie mills

:hat
Chuck, chill out, dude. It's only a message board.
 

absolutewrite

Re: Take control

Charles, it IS a pretty great plot, no? :) But, seriously, nope, it's not about Melanie anymore-- and yet, I think the discussion is still pretty darn interesting.

I once learned the hard way about inexperienced agenting. I was between agents; had just gotten rid of my last screenwriting agent, and I was querying on my own. A producer expressed interest in one of my scripts and asked me to have my agent send it over. I had a friend "pose" as an agent. She made up some letterhead and sent my script for me. The producer wrote to me to ask who heck the agent was and why she wasn't on WGA's signatory list. Then he specified that once I had a WGA agent, he'd be happy to look at my script.

But on the other hand...

You don't always need an agent and you don't always need contacts. I've had plenty of editors at major publishing houses read my proposals-- which I've sent via e-mail, no less, completely unsolicited-- even when they have a "no unagented submissions" policy. But, yes, that was after I'd already had a few books sold and sort of a reputation to draw from. I don't know if they would have shown me the same courtesy as a first-time writer.

Still... I'm now on my tenth book, and my agent sold only two of those. I made the other deals on my own. I wonder if we should start a new thread... perhaps not on the bewares board...?
 

betjam

I agree

Jenna
I agree with you. We went through the shock and disblief, even the anger and finally accepted we were scammed. However, each person talks about moving on now and we're getting good tips and trying to be supportive of each other. Everyone is pretty open to ideas, its going to be different for each of us now. I tried what you did and sent to agents and publishers. I'm trying just about anything. This board must be interesting or we wouldn't have so many answering. Even Chuck pushed us a little more shaking us out of our regrets. We hear you Chuck.
I sent out more query's again and made a goal to send out a few each week, again.
I was wondering if its proper to bind manuscripts so they can read them easier. I know most sources say to leave loose but I wondered if things changed. Or is that a absolute no, no. Where can I get an example of the perfect query? I do have writer's market but I don't know if there is a better one? This board helped calm me down enough that my dylexia is easing up. Thanks everyone even you my grabby friend. You know who I mean:rollin .
Shook up a little but wiser.::D
Betjam
 

SRHowen

Query?

I have not heard that you should now bind mss. only bind scripts.

The perfect query--ugh--I could take every how to book and toss them out the window. Every one of them is different.

I finally went with what it said on an agent's web site and combined that with an agency that accepted e-queries.

It was the one that finally got me accepted and even the rejections I got with it were complimentary of the query.

I've been lucky; I never had to deal with Mills. But having spent a good number of years on the editing side of the fence I had an idea of the scams out there. Even so, an agency here in TX almost took me in --they can really prey on you, sadly because so many places don't take unagented ms.

As to the query, e-mail me and I will send you an example.

Shawn
 

betjam

Thanks

Thanks so much SRHowen and Victoria I printed off the article and this weekend I going to study it and change my query accordingly. i just keep hoping and telling myself someday;) .
 

Chip

I may be wrong, but wasn't it Melanie Mills who was just recently killed in a car accident?
 

kcarpenter

melanie mills

Chip, you need to go back and read the message board starting at page 1. Anyone else who is just getting in on this should start at the beginning. It's an eye-opening read.
 

Mmywriter

Anyone have anything new to tell?

Any new relevant info? Has everyone found a new agent to replace Melanie yet? I am having quite a hard time. How is everyone else faring?
 

wildwilybill

Dear Ol' Melanie Mills saga.

:rolleyes
You know, I have been having a rather hard time finding a new agent myself. I have quiet a few looking it over and the rejections are rather numerous, but we are still looking.
I got took...how many warnings had I received before allowing myself to be drawn into her rather eloquent bull and signed anyway? Who, after all, is really to blame? Duh...guys its us. So, with the whining a snot slinging over with, get back to library, web sites and start trying to put yourself back into the race. No matter what anyone else thinks, I've got a damn good book, no damn good series going and just because I allowed myself to be sidetracked by the likes of her, I am not about to cave in.

Bill Simpson [email protected]