Why do Big Publishers feel the need to operate/own vanity presses?

MatthewDBrammer said:

As far as print books go, what about the author who simply needs the "print on demand" and wants to sell or market their own stuff on their own terms?

Click to expand...

Mostly because the vast majority of authors would pay much less, have at least as good a product, and keep more of any proceeds by simply self-publishing and doing their own print-on-demand.

For people who don't want to do any of the mechanics and are just looking to have a few copies (a family history for the relatives, for instance), perhaps a vanity press would make sense if they found one that charged a few hundred for the book set up, instead of several thousand. That's a situation where the author is not looking to make a profit, though. I can't think of a profit-making scenario where a vanity publisher would be the best alternative, or even a good one.

Samsonet: No, apparently I'm the one who's confused a bit, as DreamWeaver just shed a bit of light on.

I suppose my confusion arises from the fact that many self-pub companies I have seen have been labelled as VP because a lot of the tactics are the same: offering additional "commercial" publishing services that are outrageously priced and often extremely subpar, as well as accepting and listing literally everything that comes their way on their site, regardless of quality. But, the self-pub services, as long as you don't get pulled into paying for that extra crap, do serve an innocent purpose for many.

So I suppose now I'm slightly confused as to what an actual VP is. Are things like BookTango, Smashwords, BookBaby, etc. considered VP around here? Because I originally saw many of these types of entities elsewhere labelled as VP (due to aforementioned similarities).

Remember, I'm relatively new to the writing industry. Perhaps DreamWeaver can clarify this whole thing more.

MatthewDBrammer said:

As far as print books go, what about the author who simply needs the "print on demand" and wants to sell or market their own stuff on their own terms?

I can't fault the VP company for filling a need that exists.

Click to expand...

There are companies that do print on demand; they aren't the same thing as vanity presses.

Vanity presses sell writers on the ~dream~ of being published, which they cannot actually actually deliver. Furthermore, they also don't try to--they just fleece the writer for as much money as possible.

Companies that print on demand charge a fair price for their services and are up-front about what they provide, whereas vanity presses are predatory entities that take advantage of naive people.

Based on what you've said, however, I don't think that's what you mean you say "vanity press". I think you're talking more about the more legitimate businesses that give writers other options.

jjdebenedictis said:

There are companies that do print on demand; they aren't the same thing as vanity presses.

Vanity presses sell writers on the ~dream~ of being published, which they cannot actually actually deliver. Furthermore, they also don't try to--they just fleece the writer for as much money as possible.

Companies that print on demand charge a fair price for their services and are up-front about what they provide, whereas vanity presses are predatory entities that take advantage of naive people.

Based on what you've said, however, I don't think that's what you mean you say "vanity press". I think you're talking more about the more legitimate businesses that give writers other options.

Click to expand...

That clarifies it perfectly.

ETA: jjdebenedictus said it better and more concisely, but I'll leave this here anyway.

Publishing is changing, so I don't think anything is totally clear anymore . However, in the past few years a lot of the vanity publishers have re-branded themselves as "providing self-publishing services". They still do the same things, they just talk about it differently. So it can be hard to separate the genuinely helpful from the snake oil sales .

In general, if you are paying them instead of them paying you, you are likely to be in vanity publisher territory. But there is a chance you might be in self-publishing services territory.

I can only tell you what I go by:
--If they deliver you a completely set-up book ready to go to POD/e-commerce with your name or company on it as publisher, and there are no additional monies due them per book sold, I would say they had provided self-publishing services.
-- If they deliver you a cover, or typesetting, or editing, or other set-up services for an agreed fee, I would say they had provided self-publishing services.
-- If their company name shows up as publisher, or the ISBN tracks back to them as publisher, or they take the incoming money stream and pay you royalties, I'd say they are a publisher. If they took money from you to produce, set up, or market a book that they pay you royalties on, I'd say they are a vanity publisher. If they sell copies of your book to you so you can sell it, I'd say they are a vanity publisher.

Another way of looking at it:

Self-publishing: you are in charge of quality control, have your name as publisher, own the ISBN, and receive all income streams from the sale of the book. You may have paid subcontractors for art, typesetting, editing, etc. but the final product and rights belong to you.

Self-publishing with help: You may have contracted with a service to provide quality control, art, typesetting, editing, etc. but the final product and rights belong to you. You own the ISBN and receive all income streams from the sale of the book.

Vanity Publishing: you submitted your book to a publisher, who then charged you for some or all costs of production. That publisher's name is on the book, you have a contract with them that gives them publication rights, and the ISBN belongs to them. Income from sales of the book comes to them and they pay you royalties, or they allow you to buy copies of the book from them to sell. Either way, they get a portion of the ongoing income stream.

Please note, that just because a company offers self-publishing services instead of vanity publishing doesn't mean they are automatically less predatory. There are reasonably priced self-publishing services that offer good quality for the money, and there are companies that offer substandard services for extravagant and ridiculous prices. It's important to research how much it should cost to self-publish before contracting for services. It's also important to check the quality of what they provide. Some are great, some are incompetent, and some are horribly predatory.

Thanks a ton for the time and thought you put into that.

AdamNeymars said:

As for my opinion, I said it already earlier in this thread. Publishers should make money by selling books, not by exploiting unsuspecting writers. If the writers are informed and still want to pay thousands of dollars to a vanity press, that's just life. But most writers who signed up with vanity press are not informed. If they are, all vanity press would be out of business.

Click to expand...

I couldn't have put it better myself, Adam. Well said.

AdamNeymars said:

As for my opinion, I said it already earlier in this thread. Publishers should make money by selling books, not by exploiting unsuspecting writers. If the writers are informed and still want to pay thousands of dollars to a vanity press, that's just life. But most writers who signed up with vanity press are not informed. If they are, all vanity press would be out of business.

Click to expand...

Old Hack said:

I couldn't have put it better myself, Adam. Well said.

Click to expand...

Agreed. If you substitute agent for publisher, that pretty much sums up how I feel about agents charging people to help them self-publish (which isn't really self-publishing, because the agents essentially do the publishing).

I can see a few scenarios where it might be good for the author, but very few. And I still think most people who go this route are also uninformed. But for the person who has done the research and really understands the situation--and gets the right agent--it could be better than going it alone. The possibility exists, however slim.

Vanity publishing, on the other hand, whether a big publisher is attached or not, just makes me sad for people and leery of the publishers.

DreamWeaver said:

Please note, that just because a company offers self-publishing services instead of vanity publishing doesn't mean they are automatically less predatory. There are reasonably priced self-publishing services that offer good quality for the money, and there are companies that offer substandard services for extravagant and ridiculous prices. It's important to research how much it should cost to self-publish before contracting for services. It's also important to check the quality of what they provide. Some are great, some are incompetent, and some are horribly predatory.

Click to expand...

That really can't be stressed enough.

DreamWeaver said:

Please note, that just because a company offers self-publishing services instead of vanity publishing doesn't mean they are automatically less predatory. There are reasonably priced self-publishing services that offer good quality for the money, and there are companies that offer substandard services for extravagant and ridiculous prices. It's important to research how much it should cost to self-publish before contracting for services. It's also important to check the quality of what they provide. Some are great, some are incompetent, and some are horribly predatory.

Click to expand...

You're right.

I hope everyone will be very careful if they decide to use these services. I've seen a lot of self published books which have been through such companies and not one of them was edited competently, not one had entirely professional production values (for example, none were properly typeset, the internal layout of the books were all peculiar, the physical quality of the book was poor, and so on), not one was appropriately or effectively marketed and promoted.

Some of the books which were fully self-published (by which I mean the author sourced all the services themselves) showed much better results.

shelleyo said:

Agreed. If you substitute agent for publisher, that pretty much sums up how I feel about agents charging people to help them self-publish (which isn't really self-publishing, because the agents essentially do the publishing).

Click to expand...

You and I have discussed this extensively elsewhere on AW, shelleyo.

As I told you there, I know of a few agents who help their authors self publish and do NOT "essentially do the publishing". They put their author-clients in touch with good freelancers, walk them through the processes required, but they do not publish the books for their author-clients.

I agree that writers should be careful about these things, but please don't blanket all agents in together on this one.

I can see a few scenarios where it might be good for the author, but very few. And I still think most people who go this route are also uninformed. But for the person who has done the research and really understands the situation--and gets the right agent--it could be better than going it alone. The possibility exists, however slim.

Click to expand...

But if they've talked with their agent, carried out appropriate research, and properly understand the benefits and the limitations of such an approach, are they really uninformed?

Old Hack said:

You and I have discussed this extensively elsewhere on AW, shelleyo.

As I told you there, I know of a few agents who help their authors self publish and do NOT "essentially do the publishing". They put their author-clients in touch with good freelancers, walk them through the processes required, but they do not publish the books for their author-clients.

Click to expand...

If they don't actually put the books up at the retailers for the authors and collect all the money, then they're not the agents I'm talking about. That's a completely different relationship, one that makes me wonder how the agents get paid, but that's not the standard agent-assisted self-publishing relationship you're going to find from these services. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree that writers should be careful about these things, but please don't blanket all agents in together on this one.

Click to expand...

I haven't. I'm talking about a specific relationship where the agents do the publishing (which seems to be the way most do it, though as you point out, not all).

But if they've talked with their agent, carried out appropriate research, and properly understand the benefits and the limitations of such an approach, are they really uninformed?

Click to expand...

No, but I don't think most people dig that deeply, just like so many people who self-publish in general don't do enough research before they jump in. Someone who has done his due diligence is obviously not uninformed.

My opinion is what it is. It has changed a little, as I've said. I still don't view most such arrangements as any more favorable than vanity publishing arrangements. Some, though, are obviously what the authors have chosen after careful consideration, and they feel they're benefiting from them. That's the most important thing.

JustSarah said:

I guess my question is, if someone can be set up with an agent. Then why don't they set them up with one of the big 5?

After that it seems like someone taking a reading fee, as I could probably find good services myself without having to pay a middle person like mentioned above (not the same as book agents), to make my cover, edit my book, and everything else.

I'm a bit skeptical of anyone searching for a cover designer for me, if it isn't the standard trade publication route.

Edit: In case that came off differently than how I meant, not pretending to be informed. I'm just a bit confused, as I've honestly never actually heard of that sort of thing before.

Click to expand...

If you're asking what I think you are, the agent in an agent-assisted publishing agreement can either offer services through the agency like covers and editing, or simply recommend good ones to the author for which they presumably take no fee. The author then pays those services.

Some people are going to find the agent/agency feedback well worth the 15% fee, though. Having someone recommend a cover artist with suggestions on a cover design, or suggestions on where to take a series, promotional help and general advice can be worth the money to certain authors.

(I got a little bit of an education privately from someone in an agent-assisted self-publishing arrangement, and I was honestly surprised at the type of advice and help the author was getting. Hence my evolving opinion on the matter. I don't think it would be for me, but I can see its appeal. I can certainly see why this person is enthusiastic about it and pleased with the arrangement.)

In some cases it seems like the 15% is more a consulting fee than anything, and a really good agent may offer advice and help that's invaluable and worth even more than that.

It still feels like a conflict of interest down in my bones, but I'm less skeptical than I was. Anyway, I've derailed the thread. To bring it back around to the actual topic, I can see where, in some cases, agent-assisted publishing can be a good decision. I've yet to see where big publisher's with vanity arms have done anything but empty writers' pockets.

Gaughran shares some interesting cautions in that post, more along the line 'this is one small battle in the war'.

I am glad to see Writers' Digest distancing themselves from Abbott. But WD has a long way to go before it reclaims its credibility. They need to scrutinize the publishers and agents they feature in advice columns, and either limit or *label* the more infamous outfits that buy ad space in WD.

I hope David can work with a news outlet to examine the shameful Author Solutions connection to major trade publishers. IMO, that dirty part of the industry causes more damage to authors than the Amazon dust-ups ever will.

But it's a matter of visibility: authors campaigning for or against Amazon have generally made the effort to be published, either by commercial publishers or through true self-publishing.

The authors harmed by companies like Author Solutions seem to be far more inexperienced (dilettantes, senior citizens and other 'family history' writers, misery memoir writers, members of obscure interest groups, and fringe conspiracy theorists who might not be commercially publishable anyway). So the victims of vanity publishers may not be as interesting to the news media.

Especially when local media outlets seem to fall over themselves to feature these vanity published authors in the first place, without any mention or comprehension of why vanity publishing is different from commercial or self-publishing. I don't know whether reporters are ashamed at their own complicity or just don't care. I certainly don't see the likelihood of a major news story (at Amazon/Hachette level) about AS or other vanity publishers.

Did David Gaughran ever revise his errors in his how-to-self-pub book?

Just wondering...

I looked at it a year or two ago and it was unchanged. All those errors and misleading statements were still in it. I can't find the thread here in which we brought them to his attention, but I remember it well.

Filigree said:

Especially when local media outlets seem to fall over themselves to feature these vanity published authors in the first place, without any mention or comprehension of why vanity publishing is different from commercial or self-publishing. I don't know whether reporters are ashamed at their own complicity or just don't care. I certainly don't see the likelihood of a major news story (at Amazon/Hachette level) about AS or other vanity publishers.

Click to expand...

Answer: They don't know or understand the difference.

Book publishing is an incredibly complex animal. Your average local news reporter is probably covering 3-5 news beats in addition to whatever filler copy gets tossed their way to write up. They don't have the time or the expertise to wrap their brains around these relationships. They get a press release, call up the author, do a 10-minute interview, scan the book briefly, get an author photo emailed, and write up a 500-word feature profile in 45 minutes. Done and on to the next story. They save the energy and brainpower for covering murders, city sewer rate increases, zoning & development disputes, and political campaigns.

JournoWriter said:

Answer: They don't know or understand the difference.

Click to expand...

Very true. Around here, it's not really considered a "news story" for them - it's "local person makes good". And the local readers don't really care about the details either. If they know the person, it's fantastic. If they don't, it's "one of ours did it!".

Old Hack said:

I looked at it a year or two ago and it was unchanged. All those errors and misleading statements were still in it. I can't find the thread here in which we brought them to his attention, but I remember it well.

Click to expand...

Ah.

Well, I won't be reading his columns or taking his advice then. If you can't be bothered to correct mistakes in your own work...

*shrugs*

I'm sure he'll be fine without my readership anyway.

He's occasionally fun to read, as long as one is aware of his errors and agenda. I'd no more take his advice 100% than I would follow WD's Chuck Sambuchino over a cliff.

Publishers are not in business to help authors, they are in business to make money.

Owning a vanity press is a lucrative business.

Were did this myth come from that publishers were in business to help authors?

Strangely, it seems to come mostly from vanity presses. "Join us! We're a family! We're here to help the authors Big Publishing is blocking from getting their books out!"

IMHO, a publisher who spends their time selling themselves to authors instead of selling their books to readers is a pretty big red flag.

It's not a myth. It's just advertising copy designed to entice consumers (read: clueless authors) to part with their money. And it's ad copy that was developed by the vanity publishing industry.

Since 2009, I've researched thousands of agents and publishers. I've written a 350-page, thesis-level forensic examination of a couple of players in the vanity publishing world. I've watched dozens of authors get taken, progress through the honeymoon phase, and spiral down into despair, doubt, and self-pity.

They shouldn't. It's very easy to get played by bad publishers. I've done it several times in the art industry. It's how I finally know what to look for before I say 'yes' to anyone.

Some Iegit agents and publishers may use the code words 'achieve your dream' or 'we are a family'. So it behooves a writer to look deeper, upon seeing them in website copy or news articles. But virtually every incompetent or predatory agent and vanity publisher I've researched will tout similar phrases. They're meant to forestall questions, and generate a warm fuzzy feeling of mutual trust.