The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT)

Yeah, and I don't believe for one moment that it's the author's fault that their books don't sell when the book is with a mainstream commercial publisher. At least not completely. I know that now the mid-listers aren't getting the money behind them that they used to, but their publishers are doing SOMETHING to sell the books. Why wouldn't they? They invested thousands in the book, and they want to make a profit.

At PA, the profit comes from the authors, so there's no reason to do anything. But it's NOT just 'famous' authors that get help from publishers. Not at all.

Even my small press has a catalog. I'm in there, sure as shootin'.

Mr. Stodghill used PublishAmerica as a printing service, and was happy with the results, for which more power to him.

If they had better quality control, I think they might be worth using as a printing service (though the peeling covers/basic errors introduced between author's final proof and printing stages/smeared text/etc. complaints many people have shared would prompt me to suggest using any other printing service before PA).

My issue is that many people are led to believe that PublishAmerica is an actual publisher, which performs the work of a publisher (distributing books to bookstores, sending out review copies, etc.) It is not, and it does not perform that work.

If PublishAmerica said "We are a printing service and we will set up your manuscript and print it on demand, whether you buy your own books or not" I wouldn't care what they did. But they aren't.

And, in a way, the people who use PublishAmerica as a printing service are freeloading off the people who are suckered into the false hope that it's an actual publisher--instead of having to pay basic setup fees, etc., they're taking advantage of PublishAmerica's providing those free as a way to lure people into buying large and probably unsalable quantities of their own books.

So, quite apart from the poor quality of the product, I wouldn't advise anyone who asked me to use PublishAmerica as a printing service--I'd suggest that they find other ways to do true self-publishing if they found they couldn't place their manuscript elsewhere.

Yeah, from what I've heard, the quality has gone downhill in the time since Dick signed with PA. Or left, rather. Probably somewhere around the time PA got it's own Xerox machine, I would guess. Second hand information of course, but we've heard from a few who've experienced falling out pages and poor printing, etc...

So now you DEFINITELY wouldn't want to use them even as a printing service. There's no telling what you would get. AND you don't even get two free copies anymore! They may have cottoned on to people like Dick who only wanted those copies and stopped giving them away. Plus, since they no longer use LS, they don't GET the free copies from the printer anymore. (what, you though PA PAID for those?)

Bad deal all the way around nowandays.

As mentioned earlier, I have no intention of getting into a back and forth exchange, nor can anyone make me say something to defend PA. That said, I will point out that PA books were of excellent quality when Lightning Source did all their work. My two copies as well as the few I have seen by other writers were top grade. From what I've heard (I cannot vouch for this) PA now does much or all of its own printing. If true, that could be the problem. I have not seen any recent books.
Queen, perhaps you missed the point I was making about contracts. I have to speak about the past here, having had no recent contact with PA, but what was stated in my contract was exactly what happened. I was addressing someone who did not read their contract or skipped over such words as "available." For that there is no excuse, but perhaps I was too blunt for your liking. I did lose patience with people who wrote such things as "I think my contract said . . ." Apparently they did not file their contract or wouldn't take time to get it out and read it.
An example that writers do have a variety of problems with publishers can be found in a writer well-known in the mystery field (a protege of one half of the Ellery Queen writing team) recently going from Charles Scribner's Sons to PA. If possible, read some of the things discussed in MWA publications for numerous examples. It has always been a tough business at the mainline level and is more so than ever today. Stephen King, Mary Higgins Clark and some others have smooth sailing, many do not. As I am not sure who you are and therefore am unfamiliar with your work, I cannot speak for you. Hopefully you, too, are having smooth sailing. Not everyone is, as emails from many writers I know attest. For you to say that telling a novice that all writers have problems is not fair is a bit over the top. A recent article in MWA's "Third Degree" told of James Lee Burke receiving 111 rejections before selling his first book. That certainly qualifies as having problems. A mystery magazine that always had eight new stories a month now has cut back to six and usually one of those is by a deceased writer. That's a problem for me. If you are fortunate enough not to have any, that's wonderful. You are in select company.
Yes, I indeed am blunt. However, I do not lie, as you imply.

I think all writers understand the problems with publication - rejections, cutbacks - those are part of the business. No one is saying that's smooth sailing, just expected.

Having a publisher that subtly words things to make you believe one thing when they mean another isn't. I know all contracts are long and boring and technical, but I'm not even talking about the contracts at PA, just the advertising! And at the upper echelon of publishing, that's why you have an agent.

Problems like the ones that PA authors experience are roadblocks put in their way by their own publisher. I can't think of another publisher that would deliberately sabatoge their author's efforts to sell books! And if it's NOT deliberate sabatoge, it sure does look like it.

I'd take Scribner's contract over PA's any day of the week. Unless there was some peronality/creative difference going on, I cannot think of a single reason someone would switch from such a well-known and widely distributed publisher to go to the very bottom of the barrel. That's a lot of rungs on the publishing ladder to skip, and I don't know what this person's reasons are.

I hope he's not disappointed when he has to pay for review or author copies, or at the price of his book.

QoS, I'm thinking someone wants to lace up the gloves and have a go at you. Maybe we can get the Stooges to referee!!

Dick, you've stated you don't want to get into a back-and-forth. Then why is that almost all you've done?

And for the record, cuz I didn't mention PA before: PublishAmerica sleeps with the Devil himself. (Gotta fan the flames- sometimes I just can't help myself )

Dick Stodghill said:

As mentioned earlier, I have no intention of getting into a back and forth exchange, nor can anyone make me say something to defend PA.

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Why would anyone need to, now? You've done enough of that before.

Queen, perhaps you missed the point I was making about contracts. I have to speak about the past here, having had no recent contact with PA, but what was stated in my contract was exactly what happened.

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PA's contract is carefully worded to make sure that PA can get away with doing as little as possible for writers, so I have no doubt that what was stated in your contract is what happened.

I was addressing someone who did not read their contract or skipped over such words as "available."

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Just curious - do you know for sure that that person signed their contract without reading it? Or that other people dissatisfied with PA did not read their contracts?

Also, do you think that writers should be expected to know the difference between "your books will be available in stores" and "your books will be available through stores" or "from stores"?

For that there is no excuse, but perhaps I was too blunt for your liking.

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It has nothing to do with my liking. It has everything to do with defending PA by claiming that PA lived up to the terms of the contract.

I don't think many new PA authors realize that PA's contract is so weighted in favor of the publisher (or in this case, vanity press). Therefore, when they hear that PA does everything it will do in its contract, they take this as a positive, rather than being aware what, for instance, "we will market your book at our discretion" actually means.

I did lose patience with people who wrote such things as "I think my contract said . . ." Apparently they did not file their contract or wouldn't take time to get it out and read it.

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Or maybe they're just not experienced in reading between the lines of a contract? Those aren't exactly easy to decipher for someone without experience.

For you to say that telling a novice that all writers have problems is not fair is a bit over the top.

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For you to equate all writers' problems with those faced by PA authors is a bit over the top too.

Yes, I indeed am blunt. However, I do not lie, as you imply.

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You have, however, given misinformation to new and inexperienced writers who deserved better. The "agents don't want you to blog" claim was just one such example - there are others.

Welcome, Dick, to AW. I enjoy reading your posts over at AHMM and EQMM forums. (I have a different user name there.)

smsarber said:

QoS, I'm thinking someone wants to lace up the gloves and have a go at you.

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"Choose your weapons, swords or pistols."
"Swords."
"OK, I pick pistols then."

Christine, I'm sure he didn't drop Scribner's. I'm sure, too, that his agent tried every other possible mainline publisher for his new book. That's just the way it worked out. Not for the best, obviously.
So I'm off now for the VA Clinic. It's brand new, and great, but they did me no favor when they built it on the street that is Akron's southern city limit. I live a mile north of the northern limit. Because of the hills, valleys and deep ravines, only one street runs the entire north-south route. Unfortunately it is Main Street and passes through downtown.

You have, however, given misinformation to new and inexperienced writers who deserved better. The "agents don't want you to blog" claim was just one such example - there are others.

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You have also stood by while PA authors in another forum viciously attacked and slandered anyone who posted with PA was a vanity press. Maybe you didn't want to give involved. You should stand up for what is right.

But you won't admit to this, which is fine. I am not going to start a fight over this but you haven't been the harmless bystander you claim to be.

Please, can we just drop the accusations?

Hi Dick,

I appreciate the way you have handled and responded to comments and responses to your original post. I hope you stay and share some of your extensive experience on writing short stories, crime and mystery fiction. I am sure that many at AW who write in those areas would greatly benefit from your insight and experience. Of course, your insight and experience will be welcome wherever you post here. Off-topic I know, but do you still have your hamsters? I always liked to hear how they were doing.

Dick, I really, really hope you stick around and check out the Mystery forum. I have no personal experience with PA, although I hang out over here because as a counselor, the whole PA phenomenon utterly fascinates me. I have nothing against PA authors but hate how the company itself destroys so many dreams. But this is such as tiny part of AW, and I spend most of my time over at Freelance. I had to express my admiration for you because I grew up reading Alfred Hitchcock/Ellery Queen and they are dream markets for me that have so far been out of reach. I greatly admire anyone who is able to sell to those magazines, and I think you have valuable experience that you could share here in other areas.

When I signed my contracts with PA I presumed it would be to both my benefit and theirs to have my books available in bookstores, and readily available to purchase. Bookstore access was my primary purpose in signing with them.

Those were the first publishing contracts I had ever signed, and I was naive, and I couldn't afford to have an attorney review them. Looking at them now, I can see that it says they "may" do this or that, and not that they "shall". It said that when I signed them too.

There are other points in the contracts with perhaps ambiguous meanings that someone more careful would have noticed at the time. I didn't, and I learned my lesson.

I think the point Dick was making is that people need to read the contracts they are offered very carefully, and that's a good point for any writer to commit to memory. It's excellent advice too.

If this board wants people to relate to its supposed purpose, it would benefit by making fewer attacks on individuals and perhaps instruct writers what to look for to achieve success.

Simply because someone doesn't agree with your opinions or state things as vehemently as you do does not make them liars or wrong.

Quite honestly, I find posts like yours offensive Queen, and it's one of the reasons I rarely post here anymore.

I don't think what I've posted are accusations so much as blunt refutations of Mr Stodghill's claims and/or responses to his comments - basically, part of the back-and-forth that he's told us twice he doesn't want to get into. A refutation of someone's words does not equal an attack on the individual, any more than a criticism of someone's writing is an attack on that person.

Sorry that you find my posts offensive, Marie. Personally I find it offensive when new writers are given information that is wrong - not something that merely goes against someone's opinion but is wrong, period (I'm not going to post examples of these, but they're there if anyone needs them).

Now the person who gives out that misinformation might themselves be misinformed. No one's perfect. However, it would be admirable if they took the responsibility for what they had done and corrected their mistakes.

I also find it offensive when new and inexperienced writers are told that publishers don't market books. Or are not advised of the ambiguosity of their contracts. If Mr Stodghill is making the point that people need to read contracts carefully, that's an excellent point. However, sometimes it seems to me that he's making the point that one of PA's positives is that it does everything the contract says it will do. Perhaps it depends on the context of the claim, though.

Again, I'm sorry that you no longer feel comfortable here, and I hope you have found another board which works better for you. I think you're a valued member of the community and wish you the best.

Dick Stodghill said:

Christine, I'm sure he didn't drop Scribner's. I'm sure, too, that his agent tried every other possible mainline publisher for his new book. That's just the way it worked out. Not for the best, obviously.

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My mistake. I can't think of what kind of book would have NO interest from ANY publisher that he would take it to PA. There are boutique publishers for just about every area.

Curious, that. (not implying anything at all, really, just a curious thing.)

JulieB said:

Please, can we just drop the accusations?

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I agree.

Finding a board where I feel comfortable posting is not an issue, but thank you for your concern for my welfare.

It's not the fact that you disagree with Mr. Stodghill that I find offensive, it's the manner in which you do so. Simply put, I find your tactics rude.

Have you ever signed a PA contract? Have you been through arbitration with them? Have you ever seen any of their bookkeeping records, or their own explanation of the terms of their contracts?

I have, in great detail, in documents from my arbitration.

I questioned four of their employees during my arbitration and I would guess I know more about PA as anyone outside their offices.

Enough so that I can tell you that many of the statements you have made in the past about PA are inaccurate, Queen.

Marie Pacha said:

Finding a board where I feel comfortable posting is not an issue, but thank you for your concern for my welfare.

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You're most welcome. I have no doubt that you will be an asset to any community where you find a virtual home.

It's not the fact that you disagree with Mr. Stodghill that I find offensive, it's the manner in which you do so. Simply put, I find your tactics rude.

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I can understand that, since I feel the same way about the tactics used by one or two other posters in this thread.

Enough so that I can tell you that many of the statements you have made in the past about PA are inaccurate, Queen.

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Please feel free to start a thread where you correct my misapprehensions or misconceptions about PA (or to do so here, if that's OK with everyone else). I am always open to learning more, and if I've said anything inaccurate I'll be the first to admit it and to apologize for my mistake(s).

We have a thread about the PA contract. It's here.

The important thing to remember about PA's contract is that it cannot be correctly understood by anyone who expects PA to act honestly as a publisher. It is entirely deceptive and misleading.

For more on the PA contract, see here, here, and especially here (et seq.).

Queen,

I spent more than seven months of my life and my own money on my arbitration, and after suggesting I leave this board, you'd now be willing to benefit from my experience. That's very kind of you, but I'll pass. I'm putting all my arbitration documents and correspondence into storage.

In deference to your concern for my welfare I'll take your first suggestion and stick with a board more hospitable to former/current PA authors.

James, I have copies of 4 or 5 PA contracts, issued to various people. There have been considerable changes made in the past 15 months. I wonder which one your thread discusses.

Marie Pacha said:

I spent more than seven months of my life and my own money on my arbitration, and after suggesting I leave this board, you'd now be willing to benefit from my experience.

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I'm sorry if you got the impression that I was suggesting you leave the board, Marie. I assumed that since you didn't post here much any more, you had found another board that suited you better. I apologize for any assumptions I might have made in this regard.

That's very kind of you, but I'll pass.

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Not a problem. I'm fine either way. If someone shows that I'm wrong, I learn something, and if someone claims I'm wrong but cannot or will not back that up, I also learn something - about that person.

In deference to your concern for my welfare I'll take your first suggestion and stick with a board more hospitable to former/current PA authors.

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Again, I wish you all the best for the future and hope you're happy on whichever board you find.