How do you find serious beta readers?

TheAmir · Apr 16, 2015

Let's be realistic here. Publishers want something highly marketable.

Pretty, sexy characters are highly marketable.

Big bad guy vs. good guy tropes are highly marketable.

Love angles are highly marketable.

90k word novels are highly marketable.

Have none of these things?

No, you are not highly marketable to a trade publisher. You just -are not-. Doesn't matter if the story is good, doesn't matter if you are skilled, you are not highly marketable to a large audience, and they will not touch you if you are not highly marketable. That's not hostility, it's just the truth. I have nothing against the big publishers, but I know that what I'm trying to write is not going to be what they want, because I've got none of the above as a story focus. Hell, in all actuality, I doubt I'll sell that much as a self-publisher, but again - don't care. I'm doing this because I want to, not because I feel the need to be famous or make loads of cash. If I'm willing to put in the extra effort doing my own editing, PR work, etc - why discourage that for a pipe dream? Doesn't seem at all logical to me.

It'd be like going to a grocery store and trying to see if they'll sell your brand of bicycles. It's not going to happen because that's not what they want, it's not what their customers want.

That's all I'm trying to say. Also, I do NOT have the money to hire an editor. Wish I did, but I don't. I just. do. not. Repeating that advice isn't going to put the money in my pocket to hire one. I understand it's a great benefit to do so, but it's not going to happen. I don't have the bucks.

On another note - maybe the thread could be locked or something at this point? I just feel it's going in circles about this publishing thing rather than the original question about beta readers. It's really not serving much purpose and, if nothing else, would belong in the "publishing" sub forums.

Maryn · Apr 16, 2015

The way to get a thread locked is to send a private message to the moderator(s) whose board it's on. (Which isn't me.)

TheAmir · Apr 16, 2015

Thanks Maryn!

Sage · Apr 16, 2015

Just one last note, actually about betas, there's a current Beta Project going on this month. See the Novels forum, or click the link in my sig

Gringa · Apr 16, 2015

TheAmir said:
rather than the original question about beta readers.

Come on over to SYW. Crit, crit, get involved, make friends, post your own work, a chapter or two, crit again, and soon you'll have a beta or two or three or more....probably.

That's the fastest route imo...

Gringa

Roxxsmom · Apr 16, 2015

TheAmir said:
Let's be realistic here. Publishers want something highly marketable.

Pretty, sexy characters are highly marketable.

Big bad guy vs. good guy tropes are highly marketable.

Love angles are highly marketable.

90k word novels are highly marketable.

Have none of these things?

Assuming that all of these things are true (and that things that lack these things are not marketable as well), then it's because people want to read these things and nothing else. If this is the case, then self publishing isn't going to do you any good.

But in fact, there are trade-published books that are longer (and shorter) than 90k. There are books with protagonists who are evil, and ugly, and ones where characters couldn't love their way out of a wet paper sack, or where the relationships don't work out, and there are ones that make a point of not fitting at least some of the traditionally expected tropes (some of these are literary fiction, but such stories exist in commercial genres too).

Unless you're trying to write genre romance, a love angle/successful romance is not required. Many readers enjoy them, but there are plenty of trade-published novels that lack them.

A lot of the grimdark fantasy out there comes to mind here.

If you want to try self publishing, there are many excellent reasons to do so, and yes, there are people here on AW who have done it, and there are writers who have done both as well. But if you want to be successful at it, I think you need to read both trade-published stuff and the self-published stuff that's selling a little more widely.

Anyway, rants about trade-publishing aside, there are plenty of places here to discuss writing and to get advice and feedback about ideas and your writing, no matter what style of publishing you want to pursue. It's a great site, filled with people with whom you may agree and disagree on various points, but both can be useful

Old Hack · Apr 16, 2015

TheAmir said:
Let's be realistic here. Publishers want something highly marketable.

Pretty, sexy characters are highly marketable.

Big bad guy vs. good guy tropes are highly marketable.

Love angles are highly marketable.

90k word novels are highly marketable.

Have none of these things?

No, you are not highly marketable to a trade publisher. You just -are not-. Doesn't matter if the story is good, doesn't matter if you are skilled, you are not highly marketable to a large audience, and they will not touch you if you are not highly marketable.

You're absolutely right that novels with pretty, sexy characters, big bad guy vs good guy tropes, love angles, and 90k words can be highly marketable.

You're absolutely and completely right that publishers won't touch a book which isn't highly marketable.

Where I think you're going wrong is in assuming that this is what all publishers want; and that books can't be highly marketable without those pretty characters and big bad guys.

If your book is erotica then yep, publishers want pretty, sexy characters. Big bad guys work in several genres. So do good guys. Love angles are essential to some romance imprints. But not all genres or publishers require these things to be present in a book.

Self publishing can be great. I have many friends who have self published and are very satisfied by it: if you want to do that then that's good. What I'm concerned about, as I've said before, is that you're rejecting trade publishing because you have concerns which just aren't founded. That's all.

tko · Apr 17, 2015

1.) Thread are allowed to evolve.
2.) You yourself are continuing the side discussion by making this post.

So onward. How do you know the below? I read a lot, and it's not true. We have novels about quadriplegic detectives, inside the mind of a greyhound, an AI as a main character, a leper w/various heinous acts to his credit, a torturer and executioner, various mental patients, and so on. Does the Shining Girls have a handsome and witty protag? Go to Wikipedia and read the review of The Listeners by James Gunn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Listeners_(novel)

Thinks it's a standard story? It was published with rave reviews.

Sure, a highly marketable work makes agents drool, but unconventional can sell as well. Sounds like you've given up before you started. Write well, and they will come.

3.) Several positive suggestions were made on how to obtain betas, and various places were you could submit your work. You didn't reply to those posts.

TheAmir said:
Have none of these things?

No, you are not highly marketable to a trade publisher. You just -are not-. Doesn't matter if the story is good, doesn't matter if you are skilled, you are not highly marketable to a large audience, and they will not touch you if you are not highly marketable. That's not hostility, it's just the truth. I have nothing against the big publishers, but I know that what I'm trying to write is not going to be what they want, because I've got none of the above as a story focus. Hell, in all actuality, I doubt I'll sell that much as a self-publisher, but again - don't care. I'm doing this because I want to, not because I feel the need to be famous or make loads of cash. If I'm willing to put in the extra effort doing my own editing, PR work, etc - why discourage that for a pipe dream? Doesn't seem at all logical to me.

Who is discouraging you? We've made multiple suggestions, AND encouraged you to broaden your approach by keeping an open mind for conventional publication.

TheAmir · Apr 17, 2015

tko said:
1.) Thread are allowed to evolve.
2.) You yourself are continuing the side discussion by making this post.
3.) Several positive suggestions were made on how to obtain betas, and various places were you could submit your work. You didn't reply to those posts.

S

Blatant lie. I've responded to several suggestions concerning the beta topic, including one PM and several on here. Go back and -read-, thanks.

Again, my book, my choice. If I don't want to go through a trade publisher, I don't have to. Period. I didn't come here t ask for advice on publishing and I still don't want advice on publishing.

Sage - thanks, read the beta project. Not sure I'm really looking to have 3 pages critiqued. I'm looking for a full beta-for-beta swap. As soon as I'm done writing a synopsis of my WIP, I'll likely toss it up on the beta sub forums and see if I get any swap offers. If not, I'll try elsewhere.

Thanks again for those who had input on the beta topic.

Also, either I'm not looking in the right spot or am a complete idiot, but I don't see the moderators for this forum listed anywhere to PM about having this thread closed - can anyone point me to the moderator list? Appreciated it in advance.

InspectorFarquar · Apr 17, 2015

Goodness. Hopefully the beta reader pool aren't (isn't?) grazing on this thread.

(OP, I'll send a Mod PM for you)

MacAllister · Apr 17, 2015

I'm one of the room mods here - but as the conversation is still ongoing and evolving, I'm also not inclined to lock the thread.

Amir, if you've taken what you need from the thread (or just no longer care to participate) that's okay. You can simply stop reading/replying. But no one "owns" a thread just because they made the first post.

Cheers, all!

Gringa · Apr 17, 2015

Gringa said:
Come on over to SYW. Crit, crit, get involved, make friends, post your own work, a chapter or two, crit again, and soon you'll have a beta or two or three or more....probably.

That's the fastest route imo...

Gringa

crickets

tko said:
3.) Several positive suggestions were made on how to obtain betas, and various places were you could submit your work. You didn't reply to those posts.

gettingby · Apr 17, 2015

TheAmir said:
Again, my book, my choice. If I don't want to go through a trade publisher, I don't have to. Period. I didn't come here t ask for advice on publishing and I still don't want advice on publishing.

It is totally your choice, but why I don't understand is why you wouldn't want to take advantage of everything AW has to offer. I would think anyone publishing a book (trade or self publishing) would want some advice on the matter from people who have done it. And I am not talking about just this thread. AW is really a community, and if you stick around, you'll see that. It's not just a place to pop in and find readers. There really is more here than just that.

TheAmir · Apr 17, 2015

Gringa said:
crickets

As you may go back and notice, I've made SEVERAL collective "thank yous" to those with suggestions. I'm sorry I didn't specifically quote you on that. Nor have I yet had the time to work up a synopsis or post on the SYW forum. It doesn't mean I'm -ignoring- anyone or haven't taken that advice into consideration. It means I haven't posted there yet, that's all.

Above poster - As for the continuing debate on publication - advice, when asked for, is fine. But I'm not even CLOSE to being ready to publish. I've already made the choice to self publish. It doesn't matter if people agree with my reasons or don't agree with them. I really don't even understand why people are -so danged concerned- when someone is making a choice that will have -no impact- on them, their own books or choice in how they publish that book.

I've been lurking these forums for 6 years. I know there is valuable information here, but I've also seen a lot of elitism, hence why I'm -typically- hesitant to post in AW. But since I wanted some solid advice on where to find beta readers (and no, I didn't even necessarily mean find them -here-, I would have been just as pleased with someone dropping a link to other resources online pertaining to beta readers),I decided to make a thread. Yes, some of the advice has been useful and I'll pursue it when I have more than 10 minutes to sit down and do something, which could be tonight or could be next week, depending.

The last 2 weeks have been very hectic here for me dealing with a sick 2 year old and a sick husband who acts like a 2 year old when ill - I've had almost no time to get anything (aka writing/editing/synopsis) done the past several days. Do I plan on following up on some of the beta advice? Yes I do. Does it mean I'm ignoring someone or haven't thanked them if I am not doing it -right now this very second-? No, it just means I haven't had time. Sorry for the confusion on that, it was not my intention to come across as an ingrate to those who did give advice.

Gringa · Apr 17, 2015

ETA:

Gringa

don't want a dog in this....appreciate your comment below

TheAmir · Apr 17, 2015

Lie may be a strong word, I agree, but I did NOT appreciate someone flying into the thread and telling me I hadn't responded to any of the advice when, in fact - I had. Several times. THAT puts my dander up and is exactly the type of elitism that turns me of to this site so very often.

However, you were not the person who did this, so I'm sorry you were offended by the comment. But yes, perhaps you're right in the fact that I should just get off these forums and go deal with life for a while before I try coming back here. I have a short fuse right now and these forums don't seem to be helping much at this moment.

guttersquid · Apr 17, 2015

TheAmir, when you say you are going to self-publish, do you mean as an ebook or in print? The reason I ask is this: You can e-publish for free, but self-publishing in print is very expensive, even without the cost of a production editor, a copy editor, and cover art. You say you are dead broke, so going the print route would seem beyond your means.

TheAmir · Apr 17, 2015

Guttersquid - ebook.

guttersquid · Apr 17, 2015

TheAmir said:
Guttersquid - ebook.

So that explains why you didn't appreciate all the comments about traditional print publishing. I wish you had clarified that in your first post. It would have narrowed the responses.

TheAmir · Apr 17, 2015

In retrospect I wish I had clarified it as well and saved everyone the grief of a debate that never needed to happen.

-Riv- · Apr 17, 2015

TheAmir said:
In retrospect I wish I had clarified it as well and saved everyone the grief of a debate that never needed to happen.

The information supplied in the posts may well help future readers of the thread, so nothing is wasted.

TheAmir said:
Sage - thanks, read the beta project. Not sure I'm really looking to have 3 pages critiqued. I'm looking for a full beta-for-beta swap.

I may be completely wrong (wouldn't be the first time!), but I think the Beta Project posts the first three pages for open crit, but the other purpose is to entice folks to beta the whole thing. So, it's like a Beta Circus Fair with Manuscript Booths (threads) and Sage as the Ringmaster. People can drop by and sample the first three pages. They can comment at the booth, or they can determine from the sample it's something they'd like to beta and put in a request to Sage to do so (who then passes the request to the author).

This is my first year here, so that's based off reading Sage's post, not experience. If I read it wrong, someone will hopefully set me straight.

Good luck with everything!

All the best,
Riv

TheAmir · Apr 17, 2015

Well I did end up sharing an excerpt of the prologue in the SYW forums, so if that doesn't pan out I may try the Beta Project instead - thanks for that info Riv!

jae_s1978 · Apr 30, 2015

It took me a long time to find my beta readers, and I know other writers struggle with this a lot too. One option would be to find a fellow writer (maybe someone who writes in the same genre) and to swap stories. I have two critique partners who send me their manuscripts while I send them mine.

Maybe you'll also find the suggestions in my blog post helpful.
15 ways to find a beta reader or critique partner:
http://jae-fiction.com/writing-tips...ys-to-find-a-beta-reader-or-critique-partner/

oceansoul · Apr 30, 2015

I have two current critique partners that I really like working with.

The first, I originally hired as a freelance editor for a manuscript I eventually trunked. We became friends. She still reads for me, and I read for her, but she no longer charges me

My other critique partner I met through a 'Critique Partner Match-making' event on a blog I follow. She's been brilliant and very reliable.

I've had quite a few over time. Some have worked out, some haven't. I think for you to have a long term relationship, you both have to like each other's writing and genuinely support each other. I really believe in the projects both my CPs are working on and I really want to see them succeed. Some former CPs that it didn't really work out with -- one or both of us weren't too enthusiastic about each other's work.

How do you find serious beta readers?

TheAmir

Maryn

Baaa!

TheAmir

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Gringa

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

tko

just thanks fore everything

TheAmir

InspectorFarquar

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

Gringa

gettingby

TheAmir

Gringa

TheAmir

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

TheAmir

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

TheAmir

-Riv-

The much appreciated

TheAmir

jae_s1978

oceansoul