On infodumps and flashforwards and other strategies...

bombergirl69 · Apr 20, 2015

So, as I have noted in other threads, I am in the middle of revising a novel, my first (at this rate, my only).

I have (tonight) two questions. My first concerns backstory. My MC does have a past romance with the love interest (who does not come into it until maybe mid way through). Also, she has specific memories of how her husband died (and why she feels responsible), and of a particularly traumatic incident with fire (thanks to all the awesome experts here on AW). I have MC tell her best friend about the romance, tell her shrink about the death of her husband, and tell her love interest about the fire.

But.

I do it in italics and in past tense (the book - so far - is in first present, which I know is problemetic but so far has worked, not wedded to it though!) Is that a viable strategy or distracting? There are four in the novel.

Also (and this was rather disheartening but likely a good thing, not sure yet), I discovered (after hours and hours and hours and hours of this revision) that there is a midpoint scene of my book which might work up front. Midway through the book, the MC takes off to find her own answers. I tried starting the book (which is totally chronological) with the scene with her fleeing with her dog from the police through the rain to a hay barn. Then I have a page that says One Month Earlier and start the book where I had it. That feels a little gimmicky? i'm sure I have read great books that do this but I can't think of any!!

I HAD had a two paragraph prologue to set the story clearly in NW Montana. So that would get dumped (likely no loss) for this new start.

I will say after this revision process my "new" novel barely ressembles the old one (I plan on getting much better at it!)

Any thoughts on back story or starting with an event that happens farther in then going back to the story..greatly appreciated!

guttersquid · Apr 20, 2015

I'm one of those guys who thinks anything can work if it's done well, so that's my only comment on the story structure.

The only thing I probably wouldn't like are the sections in italics. I hate long passages in italics.

Brutal Mustang · Apr 20, 2015

bombergirl69 said:
But.

I do it in italics and in past tense (the book - so far - is in first present, which I know is problemetic but so far has worked, not wedded to it though!) Is that a viable strategy or distracting? There are four in the novel.

I vote distracting, even headache-giving. When I do critiques in SYW, I take the passages out of quotes, and write my remarks in colored fonts; that's how bad my disdain for italics is.

Hell, I don't even use italics for character thoughts, unless two characters are having a brief cybernetic/telepathic conversation. Instead I utilize the much better interior monologue for character thoughts.

Italics are good for occasional speech inflections, where the meaning would be different otherwise.

At least he loved her.

At least he loved her.

Spaceship names, and new vocabulary should also be in italics.

Also (and this was rather disheartening but likely a good thing, not sure yet), I discovered (after hours and hours and hours and hours of this revision) that there is a midpoint scene of my book which might work up front. Midway through the book, the MC takes off to find her own answers. I tried starting the book (which is totally chronological) with the scene with her fleeing with her dog from the police through the rain to a hay barn. Then I have a page that says One Month Earlier and start the book where I had it. That feels a little gimmicky? i'm sure I have read great books that do this but I can't think of any!!

You can do it. But also consider you may have had a false start. Newbie writers have false starts all the time. To the degree that it's said, "Write your story. Cut it in half. Toss the first half. Write the ending."

I will say after this revision process my "new" novel barely ressembles the old one (I plan on getting much better at it!)

That's perfectly normal. Nothing I've ever written turned out how I thought it would. I've sliced, diced, removed 20,000 words, replaced them. Added characters. Removed characters. You name it!

Katharine Tree · Apr 20, 2015

First opinion, I hate sections in italics. Don't do it.

Second opinion, series of flashbacks and long flashbacks aren't interesting unless they are telling their own story, the end of which is unknown. So ask yourself: does the main part of the story spoil the flashbacks? If so, you need to structure the story differently.

dondomat · Apr 20, 2015

bombergirl69 said:
Also (and this was rather disheartening but likely a good thing, not sure yet), I discovered (after hours and hours and hours and hours of this revision) that there is a midpoint scene of my book which might work up front. Midway through the book, the MC takes off to find her own answers. I tried starting the book (which is totally chronological) with the scene with her fleeing with her dog from the police through the rain to a hay barn. Then I have a page that says One Month Earlier and start the book where I had it. That feels a little gimmicky? i'm sure I have read great books that do this but I can't think of any!!

Sure, novels start that way, films, tv episodes. It's no more banal or gimmicky than fleeing from someone through the rain to a hay barn. Originality will not come from these externalities, but from the mood you set and the characters you develop.

I add my vote to a Nay to italics sections longer than a short paragraph.

Backstory a) gives additional substance and b) provides additional motivation. For use as point A it's all good, for use as point B, make those bits parts of a puzzle that illuminate stuff a little at a time, and only when building up to the culmination do all the pieces of the motivation quilt come together.

Good luck

triceretops · Apr 20, 2015

I've only made up songs and put them in Italics. Yeah, ship names and some official titles, I guess.

tri

ETA: Any thoughts on back story or starting with an event that happens farther in then going back to the story..greatly appreciated!

I think you might be thinking about the old fashion honored tradition of a flash back chapter. By yimminy...I just used one for a thriller of mine that had a very tepid beginning. My agent suggested it. It was used as a hook you right in the neck and pull you in device, or a LET'S GET BUSY!

Mr Flibble · Apr 20, 2015

bombergirl69 said:
S I have MC tell her best friend about the romance, tell her shrink about the death of her husband, and tell her love interest about the fire.

But.

I do it in italics and in past tense

(My bold)

You say she is telling people about this? Which makes past tense fine.

But why would you put dialogue in italics?

Italics are good for some things. But I wouldn't use them for a flashback or a conversation

Roxxsmom · Apr 20, 2015

If she's telling someone bits and pieces of her past, just treat it as dialog.

You don't necessarily have to go into a great deal of length or detail, but if you want to actually show a flashback being triggered by the session with her shrink or something, just segue into it as narrative, or if you're concerned about confusing the reader, just use an # and write it as a scene. I agree with the others that you should be judicious with italics.

bombergirl69 · Apr 21, 2015

OMG thanks so much! Such a fantastic board! I mean, really, there !isn't (for me) anywhere else on the planet I can ask about back story and info dumps!!! Or great ways to kill people, for that matter!!

On the start, the "remake" is deciding to walk away from the police questioning her while he left her alone for a minute to talk to the doc, taking he dog from the truck and leaving, no where to go and hoping the rain might wash away the gun shot residue from her hands, thinking the detective probably didn't peg her for a runner. And then start with my story where I had it, a month earlier.

And yes, the italics. The memories are not long (a few paragraphs) but the italics do look funny! My idea had been to have them as scenes in their own right, and not just a big block of dialog, broken up or not, coming from the MC. But, I think I can do it without the italics (!!!) - I think (

) it will flow if I use the present tense -

so I decide to tell him -into the past - It was a tuesday and it had been raining all week. Collars turned up to our ears, we'd been moving cattle, horses slogging through the mud. The air was rich with the thick, pungent smells of manure,of sweaty livestock... and on with past tense.

I have to play with it. But it does seem better than blah blah blah decide to tell then

It was a tuesday and it had been raining all week. Collars turned up to our ears, we'd been moving cattle, horses slogging through the mud. The air was rich with the thick, pungent smells of manure,of sweaty livestock...

This is the kind of thing I think about now in the wee small hours of the morning!

bombergirl69 · Apr 21, 2015

"just use an # and write it as a scene"

I don't think I know what this means but I m interested!!!

BethS · Apr 21, 2015

Flashbacks in and of themselves are not a problem. The trick is getting the timing right, and in making sure they show something that illuminates the story.

Starting the book with a scene from later in the story is something I personally can't stand. Rarely is it the truly best way to begin a novel. If you feel you need to do that in order to provide a more exciting or interesting opening, then you have a problem with your first chapters. If you make those compelling, you won't need to resort to out-of-sequence scenes.

Katharine Tree · Apr 21, 2015

bombergirl69 said:
"just use an # and write it as a scene"

Most people use a centered hashtag to indicate section breaks in their prose.

Me, I prefer a snappy .jpg, but that's because I'm perverse.

I like your sample sentences, btw.

bombergirl69 · Apr 21, 2015

And thanks again!

Actually I was pretty happy with my novel layout and had finally figured "okay, havent' done any line editing yet but as far as the big stuff, scenes and so on on, that right there is my novel." But then, played with taking a scene and moving it forward to see what it does, just so I wasn't fossilized in to "this is the way my novel must be because that's how I wrote it" When I did that, I could see possibilities (I also thought, "#@%!!, again with the changes????) But I played with it and, as I said, see how it could work.

My first scene does need work, no question. And by "needs work" I mean "will be almost entirely rewritten". Sigh.

Could you explain the hashtag idea? i'm not quite sure how that works but it sounds like that might be an option for me. I do have these four scenes, from earlier, that are relevant, and I wanted to show them. I am open to any suggestions,including the ones above, which wold work. Of course, I can't help noting that Daphne DuMaurier, in Rebecca, had one character share an extremely critical scene with dialogue, no italics, no real breaks, and that seems to have worked out okay...

I wil say that left to my own devices, I would have been tinkering around with changing words here and there, beefing up characters, making sure my tenses were consistent and so on, and would have missed the larger plot/theme/conflict/structural issues.

Layla Nahar · Apr 21, 2015

Another italics hater here

WriteMinded · Apr 21, 2015

Of course the storytelling would be in past tense. The italics would be troublesome, however. Italics are good for thoughts, and for placing stress on a word, but always in small doses. Otherwise italics are unnecessary. The fact that you switch to past tense would be more than adequate.

Also, a prologue just to say we are in Montana? You don't need it.

As for this: ". . . there is a midpoint scene of my book which might work up front. Midway through the book, the MC takes off to find her own answers. I tried starting the book (which is totally chronological) with the scene with her fleeing with her dog from the police through the rain to a hay barn. Then I have a page that says One Month Earlier and start the book where I had it."

Why? Yes, it is done. Personally I hate it. It's like a little lie. Looky here, exciting chase scene, but no, we have to backtrack now (which makes the next few pages/chapters/whole damn book backstory. Also, the reader doesn't know the MC or care about her or her damn dog. BUT, always the author's choice.

I do wonder — and this is not aimed at you, OP — why chronological (notice the italics?) is so often eschewed these days in favor of jumping around all over the damn place.

Katharine Tree · Apr 21, 2015

bombergirl69 said:
Could you explain the hashtag idea?

Section breaks indicate a change in mood, a change in POV, a change in time frame, or just the un-narrated passage of time. They're a great way to indicate all of these things to the reader without squandering your word count.

They form mini-chapters, sort of. Lots of authors use them, and like I said, a centered hashtag is the most common symbol to use to indicate a section break when you're working on drafts. Finished books usually insert a flourish, or a centered line of three asterisks, or something like that.

BethS · Apr 21, 2015

I would just like to note that this mark--

#

--in the context of a novel, is not a hashtag. It's called either a pound sign or more informally, a hash mark. It is used to signal a scene break.

Hashtags only exist on Twitter.

As for the question of whether to use a hash mark to signal a transition into a flashback, I would say that in many cases, you probably don't want to do that. This is because the transition to a flashback is often directly connected with something a character is doing and thinking; it begins with a trigger or a "gate," which could be an object or an event that starts the cascade of memories. A scene break with a hash mark is just not suitable for that kind of flashback. You'd probably just end up confusing the reader, who would not be expecting an entire scene change.

Ideally, for the kind of flashback I described above, you can just slip into and out of it without having to do anything dramatic like italics or scene breaks.

CathleenT · Apr 21, 2015

Just thought I'd add another thought to your restructuring.

In a lot of models, (hero's journey for one) the character shifts from reacting to acting about halfway through. Think of Frodo stepping forward at the Council of Elrond to say he'll take the ring to Mount Doom rather than just running scared, trying to get to Rivendell.

You say that midway through the book, the MC takes off to find her own answers. That sounds to me like it may be in the right place, in terms of a shift from reacting to acting.

ETA: I just watched these, because another AWer recommended them to me. Dan Wells did five ten-minute lectures in youtube about story structure. Here's the first, in case it's helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcmiqQ9NpPE

yetanotherheather · Apr 21, 2015

+1 to everything that's already been said about italics.

I'm much more interested in your question about structure. I had a very similar experience in my WIP. I was worried my opening was too slow and didn't have a strong enough hook. Feedback from my betas suggested I was right. I, too, had stumbled across a scene I thought would work as a dynamic opener, followed by a flashback to scenes explaining how the characters ended up there. I had discarded the idea as too gimmicky, but when I mentioned the idea to my betas, they loved it.

I decided to try the restructure since everyone else seemed to like the idea. I did it and I think it worked, but I still didn't like it. It felt like cheating to me. In the end I decided to rework my original beginning instead. It was actually more work than the restructure, but it was also much more satisfying. Luckily, my betas (both new and old ones who re-read) have agreed

You say you know your first chapter needs work. I suggest focusing on that, which needs to be done in any case. Hopefully, you'll be able to rework it so you don't need the jump start provided by the out of sequence scene. If you decide you do want to start with the chase scene, I'd say proceed with caution. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't think of an example of this kind of set up that didn't feel like a cheat to me.

Sorry for the long post. I'm just relieved to know I'm not the only one who's struggled with this

Best of luck!

bombergirl69 · Apr 21, 2015

thanks so much for all the great informtion! I think I'll be playing with options for those italics!! And thanks for giving me several options!

And I think I will play a little more with my opening. I haven't totally closed the door on the flashforward thing, because I do see how it could work, but I am going to focus a bit on reworking the opening scene (and maybe have my betas give me feedback on it!)

Very very interesting!

BethS · Apr 22, 2015

CathleenT said:
In a lot of models, (hero's journey for one) the character shifts from reacting to acting about halfway through.

For the sake of clarification--the hero's journey doesn't prescribe that at all. It really only describes the archetypal character arc (which most of Western literature is built on, in one form or another), which may or may not be a protagonist who starts out in a reactive mode. It can just as easily be a character who sets out to change the world on day one.

Once! · Apr 22, 2015

My son used to write his address which began Godalming, Surrey, England, The United Kingdom, Europe, Earth, the solar system and then carried on through several astronomical terms that I can't remember.

And he once started a story at the big bang before working his way through the formation of the earth, evolution, dinosaurs, mankind, civilization ... and only then getting to "what I did in my holidays".

Eventually he realised that he didn't need all this to tell his story. The reader understands that there is lots of stuff that happened in the past which they don't need to know about.

On infodumps and flashforwards and other strategies...

bombergirl69

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

Brutal Mustang

Loves interplanetary chaos.

Katharine Tree

Þæt wæs god cyning

dondomat

triceretops

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

bombergirl69

bombergirl69

BethS

Katharine Tree

Þæt wæs god cyning

bombergirl69

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

WriteMinded

Derailed

Katharine Tree

Þæt wæs god cyning

BethS

CathleenT

I write

yetanotherheather

bombergirl69

BethS

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces