A Certain Writing Issue...(Seeking help for a long time problem...)

Nogetsune · Apr 11, 2015

Yes, the title is a reference. Kudos to anybody who gets said reference. Anyway, for a while now I have been plagued by the same issue every time I craft and write a story: I am always, like clockwork, drawn more to the villain then the main character. I don't know why, but something about power-mad tyrants just gets me going inside. I love the evil overlords and corrupt CEOs. The Lawful Evil villains who abuse systemic corruption to obtain more wealth/power. The totally selfish evil villains whom I often create to act as symbols of upper-class greed and corruption who ultimately end up capturing my imagination far more then any of the more heroic characters in my plots.

One would say, just write the villain as the new protagonist, and to that, I say....the kind of villains I write make LOUSY protagonists. Why? Well, for a few reasons. A) They are almost always motivated by selfishness. They want to make their own lives better at the expense of others, which IMO, makes them FAR LESS sympathetic then a villain who's doing things for a good/"the right" reason such as trying to reform a corrupt system or better the world somehow through their evil actions. B) They are ALWAYS rich, very rich, and often have magical powers. They are, simply put, powerful. They have magical powers their own and the backing of a powerful evil organization such as a megacorp, or an empire, or something similar. It is VERY difficult to build any kind of suspense for these characters as protagonists since they already are at the top of the world, and have a lot of power. You'd have to do something like make them lose all their power, pit them against God himself, introduce a powerful invading alien force/eldritch abomination(s) etc... to even give them a challenge with any kind of stakes that would interest a reader.....

So, seeing these points, my villains tend to make lousy protagonists. However, they still capture my attention too much that they make me lose intrest in the more...benevolent....characters in my story. So what do I do? Do I try to do the difficult task of writing these villains as my MCs? Or is there another solution? Any advice would be appreciated!

Bufty · Apr 11, 2015

As far as I can see, Nogetsune, you've given the solution in the last sentence of your second paragraph. Good luck.

There always has to be something at stake. The possibility of losing everything is a stake- doesn't have to be a huge all-powerful antagonist.

MythMonger · Apr 11, 2015

It sounds like you're writing the antagonist after they've already plateaued. Why not write about their rise? It's the same character, but with something to lose, something to gain.

Shunter · Apr 11, 2015

The memoirs of an evil mastermind, recalling the days when he squashed heroes and protagonists like flicking a bug from his shoulder. With the right voice, that could be hilarious.

Or how about writing about the henchman of said evil mastermind as they carry out his plans? Fan girl obsessively following him in the newspapers and trying to get in under fake names just to get a signature? Butler who knows where all the bodies are buried? Girlfriend who's just so tired of living in a house surrounded by lava? Mother who so proud of her little sweetie though she worries about his wicked ways? That way you'd get to be as adoring about the bad guy as you like, write fully about their exploits, and still have a story there.

Nogetsune · Apr 11, 2015

The thing is though NONE of my villains started out poor or middle class, they ALL where born wealthy... And many recieved their organizations through nepotism/ inheritance... Which dose not make for a very exciting story. I suppose I could alter their backstories a tad to have them have overthrown their rich parents in a coup kind if deal but then you have either the "evil parents cliche'" which may be one of the biggest cliche' of all times or a situation where their parents where actually good people, in which case the mc comes off as a complete monster and loses readers due to lack of sympathy.

EDIT: ninja'ed...and while those are valid ideas I would lose interest in those mcs you mentioned just as much as heroic ones... Though the parody/ comedy idea is something I could get behind. Just not sure I am good enough to write comedy well... Yet.

pandaponies · Apr 11, 2015

Despicable Me did it.

Obviously you CAN write stories about all-powerful supervillains who inherited their wealth and are (mostly) pure evil... you just have to give them something, anything to make them relatable and invent an interesting enough problem. Everybody's got problems. Supervillains aren't exempt.

amergina · Apr 11, 2015

You keep asking this question.

You can make a villain a protagonist. You can, more or less, do anything in writing that you want and have it be commercially viable, as long as you do it well.

My suggestion is to write as you want to write. Write the story for you, and see where it goes.

(ETA: And I'll point out that my current avatar is a character who has been both a villain, an hero, an antagonist and a protagonist in comics. In the same comic, even.)

Jamesaritchie · Apr 11, 2015

Characters don't have to evoke sympathy, just empathy. Empathy just means you find a reason for your villains to be selfish, greedy, murdering, lowlifes that the readers understand. If teh reader can say, "If all that happened to me, I might be just like him" you'd accomplished the task.

I sold a story to Ellery Queen wherein the protagonist murders his pregnant teenage girlfriend by getting her drunk and placing her on a railroad track. He then blames his best friend for it, best friend even believes he is responsible, best friend goes to prison, and pregnant teenager murdering protagonist lives happily ever after.

You wouldn't think readers would like such a protagonist, but they did.

I can't recall who wrote them, but there used to be a series of stories with a protagonist was a lawyer who got his client off by any means necessary. In one case, he murdered several women using teh same method his client used to murder his wife. This made it look like a serial killer was on the loose, and his client was freed.

A lot of readers out there think just the way you do. They would likely never do such things in real life, but in their fantasies? That's a different story.

Haven't you ever had the thought, "If I knew I could get away with it, I'd. . ."?

This is the thought that makes readers love a true villain, if you write him in the right way.

K.S. Crooks · Apr 11, 2015

It is common for the villain to be more interesting and a bigger draw than the hero. The Joker over Batman, Darth Vader over Luke, Dracula over the Harkers, the "Illuminati" over Robert Langdon. They are fascinating because they do and say things we cannot understand wanting to do...or sometimes wish we could, but know we shouldn't.
If your villain is far more compelling than the hero, it becomes more important to create the need for them to lose. Make the reader like to hate them, or feel admiration but be opposed to them and want them to fail at the same time.
Hannibal Lecter is brilliant, but there is no way I would want him walking the streets. One of my favourite quotes is "The truth is ugly so we put our prophets in prison." It reminds my of Dr. King, Mandela and a few others. It was said by Charles Manson, who hopefully will never see the light of day.

sunandshadow · Apr 11, 2015

Do your villains have internal conflict? Their selfishness vs. their something else? Like, many villains love to look impressive, which may lead them to be generous (for the wrong reasons but still to the benefit of those around them). A villain who was bullied as a child may hate bullies to the point of fighting against another villain. Actually that sounds like it would be perfect for you - create two villains who are opposed to each other and let them struggle!

VeryBigBeard · Apr 11, 2015

Nogetsune said:
One would say, just write the villain as the new protagonist, and to that, I say....the kind of villains I write make LOUSY protagonists.

A good villain is valuable even without being a protag. They're antagonists. They oppose the protagonist in interesting ways.

Nogetsune said:
Why? Well, for a few reasons. A) They are almost always motivated by selfishness. They want to make their own lives better at the expense of others, which IMO, makes them FAR LESS sympathetic then a villain who's doing things for a good/"the right" reason such as trying to reform a corrupt system or better the world somehow through their evil actions. B) They are ALWAYS rich, very rich, and often have magical powers. They are, simply put, powerful. They have magical powers their own and the backing of a powerful evil organization such as a megacorp, or an empire, or something similar.

That sounds like a perfect anti-hero. It made me think of Dickens, who has several, most notably Scrooge.

Nogetsune said:
It is VERY difficult to build any kind of suspense for these characters as protagonists since they already are at the top of the world, and have a lot of power. You'd have to do something like make them lose all their power, pit them against God himself, introduce a powerful invading alien force/eldritch abomination(s) etc... to even give them a challenge with any kind of stakes that would interest a reader.....

All of those things sound pretty interesting. I don't entirely understand why you don't use one.

Nogetsune said:
So, seeing these points, my villains tend to make lousy protagonists. However, they still capture my attention too much that they make me lose intrest in the more...benevolent....characters in my story. So what do I do? Do I try to do the difficult task of writing these villains as my MCs? Or is there another solution? Any advice would be appreciated!

So write them. That the characters are grabbing your imagination is a good sign. Writing isn't easy, you will have to work at it and have some faith in your own abilities. There is no way around this.

Benevolence isn't what makes a good character. Interest is. JAR mentioned empathy, which is a big part of it. Interesting characters do stuff in response to strange things. Some of their actions are wrong, some of them are right, most are in between somewhere. There is no template for this, or at least no single one. It doesn't matter what the idea is, it matters how you execute it.

CharlyT · Apr 11, 2015

sunandshadow said:
Do your villains have internal conflict? Their selfishness vs. their something else? Like, many villains love to look impressive, which may lead them to be generous (for the wrong reasons but still to the benefit of those around them). A villain who was bullied as a child may hate bullies to the point of fighting against another villain. Actually that sounds like it would be perfect for you - create two villains who are opposed to each other and let them struggle!

This is a fantastic idea!

If you're kind of stuck, watch some movies / TV shows where the protagonist is a villain - the most obvious one that jumps to my mind is Johnny Depp's character in The Ninth Gate. It's not far off of SunandShadow's suggestion.

Even the most despicable figures in history had a redeeming quality or two - think Hitler and his love for his wife, or Stalin and his love for his mother.

frimble3 · Apr 12, 2015

If you like villians, have you tried pitting two of them against each other? They could have differences, one maybe started out to use his wealth and power for good, but ended up becoming evil because that's what worked best, while the straight-up born-to-be-bad villain never had that problem. But, the main point is, they're the most powerful people around, and both are quite sure that there can only be one.
Instant antagonists, equally matched, and neither of them a good guy.

Old Hack · Apr 13, 2015

Here are some similar threads you've started here.

The viability of villain protagonists in YA?

Can you have a sympathetic protagonist who's main motivation is selfish gain in socioeconomic terms?

Help! My villain has taken over the story and they are -not- easy to turn into a protagonist!

Villain Protagonists...Opinions?

YA Anti-Heroes? (Thoughts and Opinions)

You started that last thread in 2012, I think.

I realise this issue worries you, but I have to wonder: how many books have you written in the intervening three years?

I think your best option now would be to write the books you feel you have to write. Stop worrying about these issues and instead, write and revise your books until they work.

Nogetsune · Apr 13, 2015

I've tried and failed numerous times. The issue is not that I don't start out of fear, but that I start and as soon as I start throw all my work away. The reason being not prose quality, but, again, the fact I really don't know how to write for the characters I love most other then make them antagonists. I write a story, get part way through it, and discover the villain has taken it over completely. It's become their story, their show, and they want to be the main character but I can't give them that status. They make REALLY LOUSY MCS. They are evil, selfish as hell, and powerful. NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING, about them is sympathetic, AT ALL. They are not reform-minded villains out to better the world through evil means. They are totally, 100%, completely self-focused. This makes them very hard to act as anything but antagonists in a story.

Even further, the fact that they are SO powerful and wealthy makes it difficult as heck to give them any kind of suspenseful challenge without either making them lose everything at the start, which is something I have no desire to write about, or introduce some absurdly overpowered threat to their powerbase such as God, a Cosmic Horror alla Cthulu etc...which ventures into territory so ridiculous and over the top that the story becomes a farce even if meant to be serious in tone.

Thats why I make these threads...not because I can't start, but because I can't finish. I start a ton of stories. I'm just not able to finish them because the antagonist is always 10 billion times more interesting to me then the protagonist but my antagonists are designed in a way that they make very poor protagonists, so simply writing the same story with a flipped around viewpoint is not an option. Likewise, writing a different story from their perspective is something I have yet to figure out how to do properly, which is why I keep making these threads asking for advice.

So I apologize for all the threads. I just don't know what to do about this problem....so I am constantly looking for more ideas, more imput to help me through it. I guess the best thing would be to stop trying to write normal stories with a more heroic protagonist only to get bored with it/fixate on the villain and instead just go for it and write something with a villain as the MC and see how it goes?

lizo27 · Apr 13, 2015

Nogetsune said:
So I apologize for all the threads. I just don't know what to do about this problem....so I am constantly looking for more ideas, more imput to help me through it. I guess the best thing would be to stop trying to write normal stories with a more heroic protagonist only to get bored with it/fixate on the villain and instead just go for it and write something with a villain as the MC and see how it goes?

Yes. You are so thoroughly convinced this won't work, but you haven't even tried it yet. Just go with it and see what happens.

Marian Perera · Apr 13, 2015

Nogetsune said:
I guess the best thing would be to stop trying to write normal stories with a more heroic protagonist only to get bored with it/fixate on the villain and instead just go for it and write something with a villain as the MC and see how it goes?

Yes. I don't think you need more ideas, more input, more hand-holding or more threads. You need to start and finish a story.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 13, 2015

Nogetsune said:
I've tried and failed numerous times. The issue is not that I don't start out of fear, but that I start and as soon as I start throw all my work away. The reason being not prose quality, but, again, the fact I really don't know how to write for the characters I love most other then make them antagonists. I write a story, get part way through it, and discover the villain has taken it over completely. It's become their story, their show, and they want to be the main character but I can't give them that status. They make REALLY LOUSY MCS. They are evil, selfish as hell, and powerful. NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING, about them is sympathetic, AT ALL. They are not reform-minded villains out to better the world through evil means. They are totally, 100%, completely self-focused. This makes them very hard to act as anything but antagonists in a story.

Even further, the fact that they are SO powerful and wealthy makes it difficult as heck to give them any kind of suspenseful challenge without either making them lose everything at the start, which is something I have no desire to write about, or introduce some absurdly overpowered threat to their powerbase such as God, a Cosmic Horror alla Cthulu etc...which ventures into territory so ridiculous and over the top that the story becomes a farce even if meant to be serious in tone.

Thats why I make these threads...not because I can't start, but because I can't finish. I start a ton of stories. I'm just not able to finish them because the antagonist is always 10 billion times more interesting to me then the protagonist but my antagonists are designed in a way that they make very poor protagonists, so simply writing the same story with a flipped around viewpoint is not an option. Likewise, writing a different story from their perspective is something I have yet to figure out how to do properly, which is why I keep making these threads asking for advice.

So I apologize for all the threads. I just don't know what to do about this problem....so I am constantly looking for more ideas, more imput to help me through it. I guess the best thing would be to stop trying to write normal stories with a more heroic protagonist only to get bored with it/fixate on the villain and instead just go for it and write something with a villain as the MC and see how it goes?

Two things. You never will learn unless you stop throwing your work away. You learn by finishing what you start, not by throwing anything away.

Second, you're the one making the characters what they are and who they are. All of them. These things don't happen of their own accord, they happen because the writer decides to write them this way.

You should write whatever you want to write, but understand that heroic protagonist, or villainous protagonist, it happens because you choose to write it that way.

CWatts · Apr 13, 2015

frimble3 said:
If you like villians, have you tried pitting two of them against each other? They could have differences, one maybe started out to use his wealth and power for good, but ended up becoming evil because that's what worked best, while the straight-up born-to-be-bad villain never had that problem. But, the main point is, they're the most powerful people around, and both are quite sure that there can only be one.
Instant antagonists, equally matched, and neither of them a good guy.

With the family dynasty and the fact that the villain probably hits his peak at middle age, the opposing villain/anti-hero could be his adult child.

Old Hack · Apr 13, 2015

You've been given good advice here, but it seems to me you've been asking the wrong questions.

What you want to know is, "how to finish a story?"

The answer is easy. Turn up. Write. Do not throw your work away.

Do that every day for a year. See what you end up with.

Ketzel · Apr 13, 2015

Lots of good ideas here. Lots of good ideas in all the other, similar threads, as well. None of them have solved whatever the real problem is you are grappling with. I don't think any of them will get you anywhere you want to be until you address the root problem, and I'm thinking this means therapy and not multiple threads on a writing forum.

But I will offer one suggestion. The common theme in your complaints/questions is your inability to do something basic in connection with your writing. What you are worrying about has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with your own mindset. So my suggestion, for this thread, is to ignore your boredom with your hero, and/or ignore your fears about excessive interest in the antagonist and just write to the end of the story. Your negative feelings about your writing aren't facts; they can be controlled or pushed aside in order to accomplish a desired result. Make controlling your negative reactions and finishing your story be the only goal for the moment.

If your response to this suggestion is all the reasons why it isn't possible, see my suggestion in the first paragraph.
I wish you the best.

VeryBigBeard · Apr 13, 2015

Many, many stories have villains who are way more interesting than the protagonists. It's something of a tradition.

Satan in Paradise Lost is probably the Ur-example, which is especially interesting to your situation because Milton was definitely not trying to portray him positively. Satan's character being so nuanced gives the story a moral conflict.

There is a good argument can be made that Javert is a more rounded character than Jean Valjean, though I'd tend to say those two work because they pair so well.

To modernize a bit, Loki was by far the most interesting character in The Avengers. Darth Vader in Star Wars. Chiwetel Ejiofor plays one of my favourite villains in Serenity. In The Lions of Al-Rassan Ammar ibn-Khairan is arguably both villain and hero at the same time and a large part of the conflict is how he and those around him deal with the positions he's put in. Agent Smith in The Matrix mostly because Hugo Weaving is a better actor than Keanu Reeves but also because Smith has psychological, existential drama and the story slowly creates a world where he goes from trying to kill Neo because that's what he's been told to wanting to kill Neo because he hates everything he is. That's not an uncommon villain arc, and it creates dramatic arc.

Remember that villains are often the heroes of their own story. Step out of self-identifying with the hero for a moment and think about who the villain really is. Then use your skill as a storyteller to craft situations where their objectives are contrasted with someone else's then you get conflict. Develop conflict and let it change the characters and you will, eventually, get dramatic moments that push plot events forward. Much of this should come naturally if you read a little and just write.

You don't even need a hero and a villain to tell a good story. You need a character and some sort of motivation. Those are two very, very different things.

And stop throwing your writing out. Never look at it again, fine. Tuck it away somewhere if you like. Revise it. Writer's write. You have to learn to accept your own words. It may take time to love them, you may never love them, but you won't get anywhere until you accept them first.

Usher · Apr 13, 2015

When I start writing I never know who my villain is going to be. Which means they are nearly always fantastically deep characters by the time I find out.

But there is no reason why you can't write an anti-hero

Holden Caulfield, Becky Sharp, Michael Henchard, Jean Baptiste Grenouille come to mind and there are plenty of others.

Alexandra Little · Apr 13, 2015

Old Hack said:
You've been given good advice here, but it seems to me you've been asking the wrong questions.

What you want to know is, "how to finish a story?"

The answer is easy. Turn up. Write. Do not throw your work away.

Do that every day for a year. See what you end up with.

I agree with Old Hack.

There is no right way to write a story. At some point, you just write it and see how it turns out.

Splodge · Apr 14, 2015

Nogetsune said:
I am always, like clockwork, drawn more to the villain then the main character.

Me too! I love a villain, and secondary characters. Always. In every film and every book, I'm usually drawn to the antagonist or secondary character more so than the protagonist.

It means that when I write, the villain and secondary characters tend to take over. But this isn't a problem.
All the above advice is good, and I can only echo it. Instead of forcing yourself into writing a certain way, explore your villain, let them take over, let them tell the story they want to tell. You won't know what you'll have unless you give it a try, or how much more fun you'll have.
For example, about 10 years ago I wrote a story about a woman who met the devil. The devil completely took over the whole story. He's kinda the ultimate antagonist and he was the most fun to write. Ever.

Let your characters tell their story, right to the end, and they might surprise you

A Certain Writing Issue...(Seeking help for a long time problem...)

Where have the last ten years gone?

Willing to Learn

in ur boardz, correctin ur grammar

Pittsburgh Strong

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Preparing for winter

Heckuva good sport

Such a nasty woman

Speshul snowflake

starting over

down the rabbit hole of research...

Such a nasty woman

Leaving on the 2:19

Preparing for winter

What a desolation.