The "T" Party.

semilargeintestine

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My personal feeling on the matter is that male and female are just descriptors for the greater unifying, "human being," and we all lean more towards androgynous behaviors and desires more than Hollywood would have us believe. Most of us, male or female, want satisfying work, emotional validation, friendship, intimacy, leisure, a sense of being appreciated. The rest is just details, and those details can vary widely from woman to woman and man to man. It shows just how socially conditioned we are when a cisgendered male would say something like, "I've never liked sports and I've always enjoyed shopping. Do you think I might be trans?"

This is true, but there are significant and real differences between men and women. In fact, if one looks at brain development between men and women, it is starkly different at almost every stage. The male and female brains are different in real ways because the hormone levels in each are drastically different. As such, thinking, learning modes, memory storage and retrieval, etc. are all different in real ways.

That doesn't mean that a guy who doesn't like sports is really supposed to be a woman, but it does mean that gender differences exist. We just create many artificial societal differences that have no basis in biology.

But that aside, I wonder if there's not a subtle sort of transphobia going on behind complains that men aren't "acting like men" and women aren't "acting like women" as if that were somehow a bad thing. Maybe that girly-acting side character is a transgender woman instead of a writing mistake on the writer's part. Even if an author isn't consciously thinking about making a character trans, anyone with their eyes open can notice that there are plenty of outliers to gender stereotyped behaviors--manly women and womanly men--even if these role-benders wouldn't self-describe as trans.

Thoughts on any of this?

I agree with this 100%.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Having had the advantage (as far as this conversation goes) to hang out with groups of men as one of the guys, and to hang out with groups of women as one of the girls. People are mostly people. They are more alike than unlike. This is my experience in any case.
 

Mara

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There are biological differences between the way men and women tend to think, but it's a combination of different causes for this (some development in the womb, some later hormonal levels; the latter can be changed, the former can't). And the differences aren't all that major. And there are plenty of people who fit in between those tendencies.

Switching hormones does influence the way you think, for example. Pretty much everyone is more emotionally sensitive at high estrogen levels than testosterone levels, for instance. (And sense of smell and touch change too, which contributes to acting slightly different.) And it does affect sex drive, but not in a simplistic E=less, T=more way.

But non-gender traits do more than gender traits, which is why gender doesn't force us into stereotypes. And quite a few things often assumed to be biological traits, such as clothes preference and liking certain toys over others as a child and sports and the like, are social constructions.
 

Diana Hignutt

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My endo claimed that hormones could affect the way one walks, moves, talks. They definitely make your more emotional as Mara says.

Colors looked slightly different, esp. green after my surgery. It was as if someone changed all the green lights in traffic signals to a different shade of green.
 

semilargeintestine

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There are biological differences between the way men and women tend to think, but it's a combination of different causes for this (some development in the womb, some later hormonal levels; the latter can be changed, the former can't). And the differences aren't all that major. And there are plenty of people who fit in between those tendencies.

In the womb, every brain initially develops female. The process is exactly the same for everyone until 10 weeks when in males, testosterone floods the brain and kills cells in the communication centers of the brain while causing growth in the sex and aggression areas. Male and female brains are biologically different from about 10 weeks on.

The differences are quite major. The way the male and female brains are wired causes them to have strengths and weaknesses in different areas, with hormones being one of the major factors at play both in utero and during childhood development. Increased testosterone allows for greater spatial awareness, ease at performing mathematical calculations, judging speed, but also displaying aggression. Estrogen, on the other hand, allows for greater communication and language skills, recognising emotional states, appreciation for aesthetics, and carrying out detailed pre-planned tasks.

Hormone levels result in structural differences between the two sexes. For example, women tend to be better in communication and verbals skills because of enlarged Wernicke and Broca's areas that are responsible for speech (Harasty). Additionally, hormone levels in early development are likely the cause of behaviours during play and for sexual orientation. Studies have shown that the anterior hypothalmus in men is twice as large as in women; however, it is also twice as large in heterosexual men as in homosexual men, indicating that there is a biological difference in brain structure between straight and gay men (LeVay).

The important thing to note is that the differences that are generalised here can only be seen when averaged out over a large group of people. Because individuals can vary based on genetics and environmental factors, it is impossible to say that all men are better at spatial awareness and worse at communication than women. Of course, exceptions will be present and there is no binary between male/female; however, the differences are real, at least biologically.

But non-gender traits do more than gender traits, which is why gender doesn't force us into stereotypes. And quite a few things often assumed to be biological traits, such as clothes preference and liking certain toys over others as a child and sports and the like, are social constructions.

Not according to the study I linked above, as well as others that I can find for you if you like. Hormone levels likely play a big part in determining play behaviour at least as a child, so while social constructs are part of it, a real part of it is biological.
 

Ardent Kat

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I can tell you've done your research, Semilarge, but with all due respect, 20 different studies will show 20 different findings. Certainly there's evidence that hormones and chemistry have an influence, but the jury's still out on what aspects it affects and just how much.

More importantly, I'm talking about the sphere of writing characters, who are individuals, not stereotypes or trends across mass population. My post wasn't saying "There's no difference between sexes", but complaining about those who insist that certain male or female characters were written "wrong." I'm with Diana that "People are mostly people; they're more alike than unlike." Even if most women or most men would tend towards a certain attitude, that's no grounds to complain that a character is written wrong because they stray from these trends.

Besides, we're talking about personality, not learning styles and spacial visualization. And if you let people--individuals, not sex groups--take personality tests, you'll find plenty of of people of both sexes who could be described as introverts, extroverts, leaders, followers, cooperators, dominators, abrasive, and passive--and any combination thereof.

Even if biological differences between sexes is a reality, the man who's more empathetic than average, will still have a higher EQ than the woman who's less empathetic than average. The woman who's better than average at spacial visualization will be stronger at this skill than the man who's worse than average.

It sounds obvious, but it's for this very reason that the obsession and focus on sex differences really pisses me off. I'm sure this research has benefits for somebody, but for me it's only hurt, hurt, hurt. Because I'm not close to the average. I'm waaaay out in left field. And I'm so sick of hearing "Women are like this and men are like that" I could scream. Generalities are not realities for the individual. And I've seen studies like this used to uphold sex stereotypes keeping men and women "in their place" more than I've seen anyone liberated by this sort of research. The man who's unusually emotional becomes alienated and mocked for being different or 'sissy'. The woman who's less emotionally sensitive than most gets called a bitch and people wonder, "Who does she think she is?" for not falling into the caregiver role women are supposedly so adept at.

Presupposing certain gender stereotypes because they're common can be as hurtful as presupposing someone is straight until they announce they're gay, or supposing someone online is white unless they mention they're a person of color. It may be useful to the majority to make assumptions based on the numbers, but it marginalizes the minority as they're assumed invisible or nonexistent until they can prove otherwise. They'll have assumptions and templates foisted upon them, making them go out of their way to ask to not be pressed into the one-size-fits-all mold.

The search to find what's "normal", instantly puts anyone who's outside that into the category of "Other." And the Other gets saddled with the pressure to conform and cover, or the joy of being a "ping" on the weirdness radar, always outside the "normal" group of "one of us."

As soon as a writer tells another writer that their portrayal of men or women is wrong, to me, that sends the message that any woman or man who acts in that non-normative way is living their life wrong, or they're not the person they're supposed to be. So shape up and conform, willya? And that breaks my heart.

(ETA: This comment isn't directed at anyone in particular, so please don't take offense. If I sound somewhat angry in general; I am. This is something very personal and has been the main source of oppression and pain in my life)
 
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semilargeintestine

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I can tell you've done your research, Semilarge, but with all due respect, 20 different studies will show 20 different findings. Certainly there's evidence that hormones and chemistry have an influence, but the jury's still out on what aspects it affects and just how much.

Sorry, but there has been lots of research done, and it's a pretty well accepted fact that the brain develops this way, with hormones having a profound effect on differentiation.

1. Fetal testosterone and sex differences

2. Sexual differentiation of behavior

3. Estradiol and the developing brain

4. Sex-linked neuroanatomical basis of human altruistic cooperativeness

5. Prenatal nicotine affects fetal testosterone and sexual dimorphism

6. Sexual differentiation of the vertebrate nervous system

7. Fetal hormones, the brain, and human sex differences

8. Testosterone during pregnancy and gender role behavior of preschool children

9. Serum testosterone concentrations in embryonic and fetal pigs during sexual differentiation

10. Maternal stress alters plasma testosterone in fetal males

11. Brain aromatase cytochrome P-450 messenger RNA levels and enzyme activity during prenatal and perinatal development in the rat

12. Mental rotation at 7 years - relations with prenatal testosterone levels and spatial play experiences

13. Relations between prenatal testosterone and cerebral lateralization in children

14. Normal sexual dimorphism of the adult human brain assessed by in vivo magnetic resonance imaging

15. Steroid hormones and brain development

16. Effect of prenatal exposure to aromatase inhibitor, testosterone, or antiandrogen on the development of feminine sexual behavior in ferrets of both sexes

17. Effect of androgens on the brain and other organs in development and aging

18. Androgen effects on women's gendered behaviour

19. Sexual dimorphism in the developmental regulation of brain aromatase

20. Estrogen formation in the mammalian brain

I can post another 20 if you want.

More importantly, I'm talking about the sphere of writing characters, ....

And that part of your post I said I agreed with 100%.

Besides, we're talking about personality, not learning styles and spacial visualization. And if you let people--individuals, not sex groups--take personality tests, you'll find plenty of of people of both sexes who could be described as introverts, extroverts, leaders, followers, cooperators, dominators, abrasive, and passive--and any combination thereof.

Which...is what I said. Hormones have an important role in brain development, leading to pretty clear differences between genders. Personality is determined by your brain, and so hormones have a role in determining personality. There are obviously other factors, but you cannot deny the vast scientific evidence for this.

Even if biological differences between sexes is a reality, the man who's more empathetic than average, will still have a higher EQ than the woman who's less empathetic than average. The woman who's better than average at spacial visualization will be stronger at this skill than the man who's worse than average.

Your speaking in exceptions. I'm discussing averages. Both are important, but one does not disprove the other.

It sounds obvious, but it's for this very reason that the obsession and focus on sex differences really pisses me off. I'm sure this research has benefits for somebody, but for me it's only hurt, hurt, hurt. Because I'm not close to the average. I'm waaaay out in left field...

Well, first of all, it is important research because it helps us understand proper development so we can better understand when things go wrong. Treatment and prevention comes from this stuff.

Second of all, being trans, I think I understand. Being told that I have to act a certain way because of my genitalia when that is not who I am sucks. But you're taking something I'm not saying and shoving it into my mouth. I'm not going to say again that I agree that on individual levels, there is the possibility of wide variation.

Presupposing certain gender stereotypes because they're common can be as hurtful as presupposing someone is straight until they announce they're gay,...

Just going to once again say that I agree with you here.
 
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Unimportant

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Colors looked slightly different, esp. green after my surgery. It was as if someone changed all the green lights in traffic signals to a different shade of green.
Wow! That is facsinating. Any idea why it happens?
 

Ardent Kat

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you cannot deny the vast scientific evidence for this.

I'm not. I specifically said in my last post:
My post wasn't saying "There's no difference between sexes", but complaining about those who insist that certain male or female characters were written "wrong."

I'm not questioning whether or not there's a difference; I question how much and how important it is. You describe the differences between the sexes as "starkly different", "quite major," etc. but I posit that the similarities we share as human beings vastly outweighs the differences between the sexes. The differences seem extreme and many, but that's just because we already take for granted the nearly-infinite other ways in which we're the same. The driving needs for food, sex, shelter, safety, and emotional validation are core to all humans (and characters); the rest is just dressing and varies with the individual.

Increased testosterone allows for greater spatial awareness, ease at performing mathematical calculations...

Regardless of just how much biological differences affect us, to focus on these differences is often detrimental, resulting in prejudice and type-casting. A researcher declares, "Boys are better at math," and this trickles down to sex stereotyping in the workplace, and competent women having a much harder time getting jobs in engineering and computer science. (This slideshow busts that stereotype quite nicely)

Well, first of all, it is important research because it helps us understand proper development so we can better understand when things go wrong. Treatment and prevention comes from this stuff.

So if a little girl starts developing in a non gender normative way, this is 'improper development' that's 'gone wrong' and 'requires treatment'? Doesn't this perpetuate the perception that gender irregularity is bad and should be prevented/treated? I see nothing wrong with little girls growing up with little boy brains-type development or vice versa. And if there's nothing wrong with outliers and exceptions, then why must we constantly compare people with the yardstick of the normative?

Of course it's important to be able to detect learning disabilities, but this can be done with a gender-neutral standard, otherwise trans kids would be tagged as disfunctional from the get-go.

Your speaking in exceptions. I'm discussing averages. Both are important, but one does not disprove the other.

The original topic was exceptions: characters who fall outside the norm and how they're stigmatized.

I don't see where anyone posited that there is no difference between sexes.

Second of all, being trans, I think I understand.

Are you assuming I'm not? Or that all trans people share only one opinion on this matter?

But you're taking something I'm not saying and shoving it into my mouth.

There's obviously been some miscommunication here, because I could say the same thing. I feel like you're trying to drive the point that there's a difference between the sexes and I never said there wasn't. I'm just saying that the similarities vastly outweigh the differences. And like I said, the topic here is about outliers, not the averages. Gender normative characters get plenty of coverage in fiction as it is, and those exceptions I delight over shouldn't get hammered.
 

Mara

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Not according to the study I linked above, as well as others that I can find for you if you like. Hormone levels likely play a big part in determining play behaviour at least as a child, so while social constructs are part of it, a real part of it is biological.

While hormones determine the brain's gender identity, I think you're conflating gender and hormones too much. Hormones comprise a much wider and more nuanced spectrum than gender. (Gender is a spectrum, but most people fit into male or female pretty solidly.)

Twenty different women can have twenty different hormone configurations, and twenty different skill sets, but all have the same gender. They don't have twenty different gender identities, even though hormones determined their identities.

While hormone levels might determine whether one girl likes to play with toy trucks more than another, gender does not. Both identify as girls. The one who plays with trucks is not less of a girl, even though her hormones might be a little different than the other's.

Likewise, while women are more likely to have hormones that configure our brains for certain skills, one can easily have skills outside that average configuration and still have a female gender identity.

Gender is caused by a range of hormone levels, but a single gender can be associated with an incredibly wide range of hormone levels. You can't tell what someone's exact hormone levels are by simply knowing their gender. You also can't know if they developed a particlar personality or skill simply because it's a much higher probability for their gender to have it. That's the point I was trying to make.

Obviously, gender identity is really important and has real effects. But me being female doesn't automatically mean I don't know how to do math, or can't read a map, or that I liked Barbie dolls and toy stoves growing up. (The third is true, but I know other girls that didn't.)

"Women are more likely to..." is a very different statement than "All women..."

And while, on average, there is a difference between men and women, there are men and women who are pretty close to the other end of the spectrum. There might be a "vast difference" between the average man and the average woman, but that doesn't mean there's a "vast difference" between any given individual man and individual woman.

I value my femaleness, and it's obvious to me that it made me different from men, even though I was raised male, had mostly male friends after a certain point, and looked male. But while I have a lot of female mental traits that were probably due to not getting a testosterone dose to the brain in the womb, I've met plenty of women who don't have those exact same traits but are still women.

So, hormones are important, and gender is important, and hormones might determine personality, but gender only influences averages for personality, because each gender has such a gigantic range of hormone combinations.

EDIT:
Also, while men may be better at math than women on average, I've met plenty of female mathematicians who were far better than the average man. Women might be less likely to become mathematicians, but that doesn't mean the ones who do are at a disadvantage or any less female for being such. Same goes for male nurses, as another example.
 
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Mara

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Wow! That is facsinating. Any idea why it happens?

IIRC, Julia Serano said something similar in Whipping Girl, although it was after she'd been on hormones a while rather than specifically after surgery. I'm not sure if she said vision was affected, but touch and smell are affected so I guess vision might be, or at least the way the brain perceives what the eyes see. SRS, in some cases, reduces testosterone influences more than just taking anti-androgens.

But I'm just kinda guessing.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Just a bump to let our new T-girls and future T-girls and...um...old T-girls, and...uh...T-boys that we are thinking about you. Checking to see how everything is, and if you are getting what you need. We're here for you, and I know I speak for everyone in this forum. Best.
 

Mara

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I started HRT yesterday. :) (Hormone Replacement Therapy.)

There's quite a sense of relief involved. :D
 

Kitty Pryde

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Wow, that's quite a momentous occasion! I hope all goes well for you. :) If they made a Hallmark card for that, I would send you one! :D
 

Diana Hignutt

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I started HRT yesterday. :) (Hormone Replacement Therapy.)

There's quite a sense of relief involved. :D

That is totally awesome! I remember getting my first HRT script. I ran to the drugstore, got it filled, and dropped my first pill in my car, washed down with saliva. It was and is quite a milestone. Congrats!!!
 

Mara

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I found a interesting, short comic over on Fur Affinity, about a mother who discovers that her teenage son wants to be a girl:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2219574

Oh and like with deviantart, you can click on the image to make it bigger.

Wow. That really hit home, and I'm crying now. But I'm happy I read it. :) The mom reminds me of my own.

That strip had a lot of insight. The creator said they'd been reading up at transsexual.org. Either the creator is also trans or the creator has a LOT of empathy. Either way, this strip was commendable and I hope a lot of people read it.

Thanks for the link!
 

Diana Hignutt

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I thought this might be useful to some of our new girls:

http://heartcorps.com/journeys/voice.htm

I used Melanie's video to perfect my female voice. The trick is to constrict your vocal cords like you are doing a Martin the Martian voice :"My space modulator!" That's the key.

A useful reference tool.
 
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Mara

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My voice is crap, but everyone keeps telling me opposite things about how to safely make it better. And if you do it wrong, you can damage your vocal cords. And telling me to "talk with my lungs, not with my vocal cords" (as one person who'd had voice lessons before transitioning) didn't make any sense to me.

Frustrating. But thanks for the link. :)
 

Diana Hignutt

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I've used Melanie's method since 1998 and I've had no problems. For the cost of a $20.00 video tape, I skipped years of voice therapy.
 

Mara

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Whoa, I've tried it the way you described a few times and it just now actually sorta worked!

Maybe I'll give Melanie's videos a shot. :)
 

Wayne K

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I have a question: I'm writing about my first sexual experience with a guy. Now, please don't get upset, but she was TG. At the time, to me, it was sex with a guy. I'm writing it from the POV of a 20 year old confused moron (me) It's a memoir. The problem is that I don't remember her that well.

Are there any books I can read that will give me a feel for how true to her I'm being. I don't want to come across as what Mac called a "Heteronormative Dope" I also don't want to offend the TG community. They were very nice to me when I lived in the streets

I don't want to watch anything on film because I don't know how to translate that into prose.

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