Self Publishing and ISBNs

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Exactly what I'm saying. Most of us are never going to be making the best seller lists and the best option is to minimize costs.

Except that isn't what you wrote. People will read what you write, not what you meant.

Go back and re-read your posts in this thread. You sneer at other self-publishers, you imply that they buy ISBNS out of vanity, and then, you reveal that despite your dismissal of anyone using ISBNs, you do in fact use ISBNs provided by Smashwords and Amazon.
 

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It's optional in that charging for your book is optional.

If you charge, you must have an ISBN.
I started a thread about this last week, but it quickly got buried.

My understanding is that the ISBNs were always optional for the free iBookstore books.

But as of about 6 weeks ago, ISBNs are now also optional for the paid books. The information is being kept quiet as hell, and it took me a long time to verify, but from what I've gathered, it's true.

Unfortunately, Apple will still use your real name as the publisher unless you have a DBA, but I expect they'll eventually change that. Or not.
 

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I started a thread about this last week, but it quickly got buried.

So you did! Here's a link. I'm sorry it didn't get a response, and hope you weren't discouraged.

I understand this publishing ecosystem and how it works or I wouldn't put myself out there.

Katie, I'm sure you know how publishing works for you, in your particular niche. But that doesn't mean that it couldn't work better if you were more aware of various aspects of publishing, nor does it automatically extend to you knowing how publishing works in a wider sense.

I don't think people buying ISBNs are doing it for vanity.

I do think ISBNs are a waste of money and that no one will be using them in the not-so-distant future.

I doubt they'll fall out of use any time soon: they provide too much information and assistance to the book trade. And I agree with you on the "vanity" thing. There are too many good, useful reasons for using them.

I wouldn't recommend anyone buy ISBNs if you're just starting out. They're not necessary in this new self-publishing climate, and unless you have lots of cash to throw around, take the free Createspace one.

I'm not sure that ISBNs aren't necessary to everyone who self publishes: as Medie has already explained there are lots of instances where self publishers need ISBNs to achieve what they want to achieve. However, I do think that for some subsets of self publishing a paid-for ISBN might not be strictly necessary.

When I started self-pubbing in 2009, people said you weren't a "real" self-pubber unless you bought them, so I got a block of ten. All that did was eat into my profits for the year. Totally useless.

That's why I get so riled up when I see people spouting misinformation. It doesn't help, and it can hurt the writers who believe it in all sorts of ways--in your case, the hurt was financial. It's infuriating, isn't it?

Exactly what I'm saying. Most of us are never going to be making the best seller lists and the best option is to minimize costs.

Minimising the costs is only the best option if your primary motivation is not spending much at the outset.

If you want to maximise your income and profits, then you might want to invest in the quality of your books in all sorts of ways and maximise the number of sales outlets your book appears in: and for that, you might well need ISBNs.

As I said, one size doesn't always fit all, and your way isn't necessarily the best way for everyone.

I apologize for using quotations around the term "self publishing." It was an attempt to comply with the rules for required terminology on the forum. I will cease and desist.

All we ask is that you use the term "self publishing" rather than the term "indie publishing". By putting quote-marks around it as you did you were making a point, Katie, and a pretty shabby one at that.

Still, it's nice that you've apologised for the quote marks, if not the attitude.
 

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Let me see if I understand the argument:


"I don't need an ISBN because I'm not going to be on any best-seller lists."

"Why won't you be on any best-seller lists?"

"Because I don't have an ISBN."

 

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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but isn't one main reason for self-publishers to want an ISBN to ensure that the book's "history" and info always goes with the author/publisher, no matter who the distributor/reseller? If I'm correct in that, it seems an advantage to be able to have one's books use one universal number, regardless of who's handling distribution/sales. And I know that if I'm looking for a particular book, I'll find the ISBN and google that for pricing and availability.
 

Deleted member 42

I started a thread about this last week, but it quickly got buried.

My understanding is that the ISBNs were always optional for the free iBookstore books.

But as of about 6 weeks ago, ISBNs are now also optional for the paid books. The information is being kept quiet as hell, and it took me a long time to verify, but from what I've gathered, it's true.

I think perhaps it's what it appears. I've just contacted vendor support at Apple, and they tell me that people are misunderstanding the meaning of the dialog in iTunes Producer.

In iTunes Producer 2.8 (released in late October) you can create your package without the ISBN. Here's the dialog you get.

I've just now tried to release a new book for sale at $5.00 without an ISBN. iTunes Producer cycles back around and won't let me finish the process.

I've previously released a number of books and have not had this problem, so I suspect that Apple still require an ISBN for a book that is not free.

I further suspect that the use of "offer" versus sell is deliberate.

Here's the current Apple FAQ, linked to previously:

Apple FAQ said:
Do I need an ISBN?
An ISBN (International Standard Book Number) is required if you have a paid book agreement for any book you are selling on the iBookstore. An ISBN uniquely identifies the book and its current edition, and helps sellers ensure that they are marketing the right book. In the U.S., you can obtain an ISBN by visiting www.myidentifiers.com. Outside the U.S., visit www.isbn-international.org/agency.

An ISBN is not required if you have a free book agreement and choose to offer your book free on the iBookstore.

Apple ties metadata to the ISBN. So does their affiliate link system (though there are at least two ways around that if you're willing to hand-link).

Also note that you can use the ISBN of another book you published in the Related Product metadata field as long as the book is available from the iBooks Bookstore, and Apple will generate the link to that book's page for you.

Given that, if you plan to sell your book ever, I think either using service like Smashwords or ePubBud (they provide ISBNs for 5.00/number, but they will be listed as the publisher. There are several similar vendors.) makes sense.

ISBN-13 is now the standard, with ISBN-10 grandfathered in.

The ISBN is tied to that edition of the book; if you start out with Smashwords as the provider and using their ISBN, if you later want to use another provider or be your own publisher, you'll need a different ISBN.
 

Deleted member 42

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but isn't one main reason for self-publishers to want an ISBN to ensure that the book's "history" and info always goes with the author/publisher, no matter who the distributor/reseller? If I'm correct in that, it seems an advantage to be able to have one's books use one universal number, regardless of who's handling distribution/sales. And I know that if I'm looking for a particular book, I'll find the ISBN and google that for pricing and availability.

Yep; it is the unique identifier for your book in that particular edition.

I don't think they're going away anytime soon. They're now part of cataloging, inventory, and vendor data systems, and while right now the retail channels for buying books are somewhat confusing, especially for ebooks, I think we're going to see much more ubiquitous purchasing of ebooks. I think we'll find kiosks, and vending machines, and not just in Japan, that sell ebooks in a variety of formats, and can delivery wirelessly or on temporary media.

I think we'll see companies like DropBox providing a Vendor API for buying digital content that is delivered to a user's DropBox account, with encryption on both ends.
 

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So you did! Here's a link. I'm sorry it didn't get a response, and hope you weren't discouraged.
No worries...it's hardly your fault if no one knew anything about it.

I saw the no ISBN thing referenced a few places. What confused me is how CASUAL some people were about it, like everyone's been publishing without them. In the comment section of the Passive Guy's blog for 20 November, someone said it was in the information guide but not yet in the FAQs. I also came across a few other places where people said the guide had been changed recently.

I've just contacted vendor support at Apple, and they tell me that people are misunderstanding the meaning of the dialog in iTunes Producer.
Can't get any clearer than that. Thanks for asking them. And then trying anyway. So I'm going to be optimistic that Apple has some nice changes around the corner.

Ah, but...sorry for the continuing derail, but if someone who's familiar with iTunes Producer could tell me if the people here are talking about a secondary/additional ISBN field? The comments that I'm mostly interested in are by Laura34 and Ardalp. Laura34's comment suggests that the book was submitted just fine without the ISBN, but maybe that information was already included elsewhere?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4482031
 

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ISBN notice from Apple

With reference to the question of whether or not an ISBN is still needed:

From the iBookstore News and Announcements newsletter dated Oct 31, 2012

iTunes Producer has been updated to make delivering and managing your catalog even easier. The new features include:
  • Book versioning support for EPUB 3 and books created with iBooks Author
  • Optional ISBN for your books. In many cases, you no longer need to provide an ISBN for your book. If you do not provide an ISBN, a vendor ID will be assigned for your book automatically. Note that if no ISBN is provided, your sales will not be reported to charting organizations.
  • Support to set up rights and pricing for multiple territories at the same time
 

Deleted member 42

The comments that I'm mostly interested in are by Laura34 and Ardalp. Laura34's comment suggests that the book was submitted just fine without the ISBN, but maybe that information was already included elsewhere?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4482031

It look like if you're creating a new account with a new Apple ID (which I've just done) you can upload a book to sell without an ISBN, even if you are selling the book.

It also looks like that there's no meta data associated with the book beyond the basics, which is why they're indicating that your book won't listed in terms of any lists that rely on metadata (best sellers, category lists, also-by lists), and why it looks like you receive and aggregate sales report, rather than the verbose version.

Were it me, I'd rather go with Smashwords or ePubBud, than that. You can always create a new edition, and purchase an ISBN you control, even if you do lose sales rank etc.

It also looks to me that some of the posts in Apple Support are confusing the iBooks Author upload method with uploading an ePub directly via iTunes; they are not the same, and I suspect the person took a wrong turn at the point where he/she indicates whether the book is for free or for sale, or the point where the Vendor ID is generated based on an Apple ID.

Also note that people are getting very different results on regions right now, not sure why.
 
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Is there anyone who has self-published and found an ISBN useful for selling books? I wonder if they could hop into the thread and explain their experience. It would be nice to hear it from the horse's mouth.
 

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I've worked with a few writers who have self published their own works and have required ISBNs. They weren't publishing in the same niche as Katie Elle, who has self published a handful of erotica shorts: the authors I've worked with have published non fiction, some of which is heavily illustrated. Most of the books concerned do better in print than in digital editions, and have sold well (one has sold upwards of 7,000 copies, I recall, and the others have had solid sales) through bookshops and specialist retailers: they wouldn't have been able to make those sales without an ISBN.

They're not members of AW, so can't speak for themselves here; nor can I give you much more information than that because it's not my place to do so.
 
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Deleted member 42

Is there anyone who has self-published and found an ISBN useful for selling books? I wonder if they could hop into the thread and explain their experience. It would be nice to hear it from the horse's mouth.

I'm not the writer, but this book was initially self-published.

It's meant for the scholarly / academic market, which meant we needed to get it into libraries, and on the tables of bookstores who sell to our market, which meant getting it into vending databases.

This was a book that publishers turned down because the licensing costs for images and the printing costs were so high that the retail price of the book would drastically limit sales, making it too costly to publish.

So Dr. Mellinkoff self-published, working with a team of experts including an editor, a designer, a typesetter, and a rights person who assisted Dr. Mellinkoff with acquiring some of the images and image prep.

It sold so well, and was reviewed so very positively, that a publisher purchased the remaining stock, and then re-issued it in both paperback and hard cover.
 

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From the iBookstore News and Announcements newsletter dated Oct 31, 2012
Ah. That explains everything. Thanks a million, Joe.

It look like if you're creating a new account with a new Apple ID (which I've just done) you can upload a book to sell without an ISBN, even if you are selling the book.

It also looks like that there's no meta data associated with the book beyond the basics, which is why they're indicating that your book won't listed in terms of any lists that rely on metadata (best sellers, category lists, also-by lists), and why it looks like you receive and aggregate sales report, rather than the verbose version.

Were it me, I'd rather go with Smashwords or ePubBud, than that. You can always create a new edition, and purchase an ISBN you control, even if you do lose sales rank etc.
Very nice break down, Medievalist...plus you anticipated my next round of questions. Wonder why they bother with half-assed improvements. Makes me question how well they understand the market. And thank you very much for investigating the conversation in that link. Unexpected twists! It seems working directly with Apple is a whole other world.
 

Deleted member 42

It seems working directly with Apple is a whole other world.

I've been an Apple developer since 1989.

I love their technology, mostly.

The corporate culture, and often, developer relations (which extends to content producers in many respects) is messed up on many levels.

I've got a couple of queries in; I'll post if I get anything useful that I can talk about—Apple is the most NDA obsessed company I've ever worked with, more so even than various state and federal agencies.
 

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ISBN issues

Is there anyone who has self-published and found an ISBN useful for selling books?
I've sold roughly 50,000 ebooks in the last two years via the self-publishing route. (I also have three ongoing series with traditional publishers.)

There have been three instances were an ISBN was necessary for what I wanted to accomplish. (Whether that make is useful or not is debatable in my opinion.) The first was making my work available through Apple's iTunes/iBooks platform. The second was making my work available via Overdrive. The third was creating print editions of the books for sale via Amazon, B&N, etc.

I know quite a few authors who self-publish - quite successfully as well - who do not bother with obtaining an ISBN for their books. They stick to producing ebooks only and ignore any platform that requires an ISBN. With the majority of the ebook market being handled through Amazon, B&N, and Kobo - none of which require an ISBN - this is a feasible strategy if you decide to ignore print and library sales as part of your business objectives.
 

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I've sold roughly 50,000 ebooks in the last two years via the self-publishing route. (I also have three ongoing series with traditional publishers.)

There have been three instances were an ISBN was necessary for what I wanted to accomplish. (Whether that make is useful or not is debatable in my opinion.) The first was making my work available through Apple's iTunes/iBooks platform. The second was making my work available via Overdrive. The third was creating print editions of the books for sale via Amazon, B&N, etc.

I know quite a few authors who self-publish - quite successfully as well - who do not bother with obtaining an ISBN for their books. They stick to producing ebooks only and ignore any platform that requires an ISBN. With the majority of the ebook market being handled through Amazon, B&N, and Kobo - none of which require an ISBN - this is a feasible strategy if you decide to ignore print and library sales as part of your business objectives.

Thanks Joe - and everyone else who responded. That's interesting, I've never heard of Overdrive but if it's another platform to sell books I'll look into it.
 

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Overdrive is the platform that most libraries get ebooks and audiobooks through. I've heard of a very few people who've managed to get onto the platform without a major publisher, but it's not the kind of self-service portal you'll find elsewhere. Our library acquisitions manager has lots to say about them, most of it in the kind of language she doesn't generally use.
 

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Overdrive is the platform that most libraries get ebooks and audiobooks through.

That's public libraries in the U.S. Those are books the libraries lease from Overdrive, and then loan to members.

That's not where or how libraries purchase digital media; nor is it the way academic or k-12 libraries purchase digital media.

Voyager is the primary vendor; they also sell printed materials. They use the Bowker API, and filter on ISBN for U.S. published books, and require a LOC CIP identifier for inclusion. That means, they won't accept self-published books using a ISBN number that isn't associated with a publisher of record.

The difficult part is honestly meeting the criteria for LOC CIP data.
 

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...You can waste money for a vanity ISBN ...

I had wondered about these statements, because they seemed to parrot so exactly the Smashwords guidelines:

We recommend the FREE ISBN because it's free. We pay for the ISBN so you don't have to. The Premium ISBN offers no advantage over the free ISBN. Unless you're a publisher of multiple authors, the Premium ISBN is essentially a vanity ISBN for those who feel it's important to be listed as the "publisher" in the Bowker Books in Print Database, a database few readers will ever view (most readers search for books via title and author name searches at Google and online bookstores).

Smashwords seems to really, really try to discourage use of an independent ISBN.

In fact, I haven't been able to get one for my husband's latest self-published book.

We have self-published some of his novels through Smashwords. We had always bought our own ISBN through them -- even though they label it "vanity" and appear to pooh-pooh the importance of being listed as the official publisher in Books in Print. But on his last book, the option was removed. I emailed them to ask why several months ago and never received a reply.

We are planning to buy our own block of ISBNs and determine independently what we shall do.
 

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My wife and I put an ISBN on the books we publish. We release every book in paperback, EPUB, and MobiPocket formats. The paperback and EPUB editions get an ISBN. The MobiPocket edition does not because Amazon assigns it an ASIN, which works just as well within their book ecosystem. If our MobiPocket editions were sold outside Amazon, we'd assign them an ISBN.

I like ISBNs because they assign our books a unique identifier that ties that title back to us regardless of who distributes or sells the book. The ISBN also relates the book to its entry in the "Books in Print" database, which is the master database of books published in the U.S. Now THAT is a record you cannot modify without being the publisher of record.

ISBNs were originally created to give books a unique identifier within the book distribution system. It used to be that all book retailers bought through a distributor, and the ISBN was an essential "part ordering number." I can understand the argument for dispensing with ISBNs now that we go straight to the retailers. But what we do today is not necessarily what we'll do tomorrow. It certainly isn't what we were doing yesterday! I think it makes sense to continue having a single identifier that can be reliably used to order a specific edition of a specific title regardless of where the book is sold.

The explosion of retailer self-publishing portals and the bypass of distributors has definitely watered down the effectiveness of ISBNs, but I see that as a failing of the new systems: readers have no way to know exactly what edition of a book they are getting.

I can't really make a strong argument for why self publishers should invest in ISBNs. But I'd like to point out that your book is going to get an ISBN anyway, so it might as well be one you own. Smashwords can't distribute your books without one, so they give you a free number. But if you decide to switch from Smashwords to Draft2Digital as I recently did, you can't take that number with you. ISBNs are *still* essential for book distribution. I don't think that will ever change because we logically HAVE to have some identifier that vendors can use to order from distributors, and it doesn't make sense for every distributor to make up their own numbering system when one that has been in use for decades already exists.
 

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I don't know much about ISBNs. I know they are an identification number, and that each one must be unique for a given version of a book. Also, if I understand correctly, whoever bought the original ISBN is listed as the publisher of the book version that uses that ISBN. But that doesn't give them any copyright license, right?

Can someone who knows more tell me what the advantages are for owning the ISBN as a publisher? This is really confusing me since it is split from copyright in such an odd way. What rights does owning the ISBN confer?
 
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