Kindle Unlimited

Hapax Legomenon said:

Libraries buy books with taxpayer money to lend out to members of a certain community. If you are not in that community, no dice -- so each community, if a community is going to read a book, needs to pay for that book.

Click to expand...

Not true. There's this thing called Interlibrary Loan.

ShaunHorton said:

Actually, aren't public libraries on some kind of network now? My friend went into our local branch and requested a book, it was in the network, but not at that facility. He opted to put in a request for it anyway and, though it took a few weeks, they got the book shipped up from another library.

Click to expand...

And this is what Interlibrary Loan is. You can request any book that is in any library in the nation. Assuming the owning library lends it out, you can have it sent to your local library for your reading pleasure. It's a little different than checking out something your local library owns -- how much time you get to keep it varies, there may be a fee for shipping (although I've never been charged one), and how quickly you get it depends on where it is.

I once requested a book through ILL that took 8 weeks. When I received it it had a "Storage" sticker on it. That's why it took so long -- the owning library had to get it out of storage before they could send it. But they did. And this was just a novel, not a reference book. Pretty good service, all around.

And to bring this around to the real topic ... that novel I got through ILL was out of print. I assume Amazon will only be able to offer current books in their subscription program. So it's not nearly as useful as a library, though more costly.

Sage said:

That is definitely a big difference between books and movies. For books, if you're not going to own it, we expect it to be free. You don't rent books and you don't pay $5-$14 to experience it in one spectacular sitting. You borrow it for free, or you pay to own your own copy. For most people (not me, but probably most) and many tv shows, people do pay a subscription to watch, and can also choose to pay to own, but the model doesn't start from ownership, the way it does for books. So how many people will be interested in paying for a subscription, rather than for a book?

Click to expand...

I'm guessing a lot - provided the books they want to read are there. With the new digital model for books, I think there is not the same feeling of "ownership" we used to have. Music has already made this transition. How many people buy albums anymore? And people never kept all their books, either. How many physical books have I donated or sold over the years? I certainly don't have them all. Most of them I only read once.

People who read a lot will enjoy the benefit of the subscription as long as they can find enough of the books they want to read. The price point is low enough that I would subscribe to sample new authors and still be willing to pay per book for my favorites or anything I wanted to have on my virtual "keeper shelf."

Amazon is obviously encouraging this attitude with their "discovery" pitch.

Hapax Legomenon said:

Because of this, library books are most frequented by people who cannot or don't want to spend money on books for whatever reason. Such people are forced to be less picky and therefore are not so annoyed with such limitations.

Click to expand...

Hello. Librarian here. Have worked in many libraries. And I respectfully disagree on a few points you mention.

IME, our patrons spend way more on books than people who don't use libraries, and there actually aren't collection limitations, only those of a patron's time and patience.

1. Collections are partly funded by library budgets (that are funded by the tax-payers). We rely heavily on material donations, used book sales proceeds, fines, and funds raised by our Friends of the Library organization to cover the rest.

So, what I'm saying is it's almost always our regular patrons that donate their used books and other materials to help build our collection. Our regular patrons spend quite a bit, and spend frequently, on books that they pass on to us. They also give money frequently.

Yes. We keep stats on all of it.

2. If we have a hole in our collection or some material you wish us to own that we don't, we will purchase it for you if it's "suitable." Meaning no smut for you. Sorry. But we will basically buy anything else you want. It's your library, after all.

People don't ask frequently, though. Why? They either don't know about it, don't want to wait, or the main response: I didn't want to use tax-payer money for my personal reading choices. So they go out, buy it, and then donate it to us instead of asking.

3. Patrons can also use Interlibrary Loan. We will start in-state, but will go anywhere in the nation to get materials you want or need. Usually at no up-front cost to you.

People do use ILL, but again, not as often as we'd like. Why? They don't know about it, don't want to wait, or they feel they are wasting money and resources on a personal reading choice. So they buy it and donate it to us when they're done.

4. You can borrow ebooks to your heart's content on Overdrive. Some of us even have pre-downloaded Nooks and Kindles and iPads you can borrow. And again, if we don't have it in the collection, we'll order it. Unless it's smut.

So, no. Ime, library patrons are more likely to spend money on books, and are very picky, and very annoyed by having to ask and wait for desired books. But they can get any book they want from us, for free most of the time.

Whether they will, or go to Amazon and pay, is a different story...

Sage said:

That is definitely a big difference between books and movies. For books, if you're not going to own it, we expect it to be free. You don't rent books and you don't pay $5-$14 to experience it in one spectacular sitting. You borrow it for free, or you pay to own your own copy. For most people (not me, but probably most) and many tv shows, people do pay a subscription to watch, and can also choose to pay to own, but the model doesn't start from ownership, the way it does for books. So how many people will be interested in paying for a subscription, rather than for a book?

Click to expand...

Obviously this is a different world than fiction, but there are services now for renting academic/text books. Most of the students where I adjunct rent their textbooks. It's such a different experience than when I was in college (she says as she looks at her bookshelf full of textbooks she's been needlessly hauling around since college but is still in too much sticker-shock to discard).


I haven't checked out the Kindle Unlimited selection yet, even though I am the target market. I am a heavy user of my public library (paper books and e-books on Overdrive). I would like to see how it shakes out for authors a bit more before I sign up or not.

How long has ILL been national? I haven't used a library in awhile, but back when I did, it seemed like most ILL was local or regional. Maybe statewide, if you were lucky.

Chuck Wendig on Kindle Unlimited:

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/201...ted-author-publisher-as-second-class-citizen/

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2014/07/18/to-kindle-unlimited-and-beyond/

Liosse de Velishaf said:

How long has ILL been national? I haven't used a library in awhile, but back when I did, it seemed like most ILL was local or regional. Maybe statewide, if you were lucky.

Click to expand...

It must vary by library. Neither my public nor my university library goes outside of the state.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

How long has ILL been national? I haven't used a library in awhile, but back when I did, it seemed like most ILL was local or regional. Maybe statewide, if you were lucky.

Click to expand...

mayqueen said:

It must vary by library. Neither my public nor my university library goes outside of the state.

Click to expand...

Hmm. I get my ILLs through my local branch of the county library. Anything in WorldCat is up for grabs, although it does have to have been out for at least 6 months. Can't get brand new releases, I think mostly because the owning libraries won't share them until a bit of time has passed. My librarian does try for the closest libraries first, but there's never been a geographic limit placed on my requests. I've even gotten a book that was the sole copy to be found anywhere in the US and its home wasn't anywhere close to me.

With unlimited, there will presumably be a much larger number of downloads, and thus many more KDP select authors across whom to split the pool. This will likely bring the payments down per borrow to a much lower amount than they were under the Kindle Lending Library. Previously, you didn't have to lend your book if you were in KDP select. There was a box to check if you wanted to enable lending. As far as I can tell, there's no option *not* to be a part of Unlimited if you are in KDP select. You can opt out of it only by opting out of KDP select altogether. When they rolled out Kindle Unlimited as a part of KDP Select, they retroactively applied it to people who were ALREADY in KDP select, and then simply notified us. So we never had an option to say – you know, I don't want to be a part of Unlimited. The only option is to wait for the KDP select term to expire and then not renew.

As a reader, Unlimited doesn't look very attractive at the moment, because the vast majority of the available selections appear to be either self-published novels (which are iffy) or classics (which I could get for free anyway).

We have interlibrary loan from anywhere nationally at our library, but borrowers are asked to pay return postage.

mayqueen said:

It must vary by library. Neither my public nor my university library goes outside of the state.

Click to expand...

It's been avail a long time, nationwide ILL, tho its use and libraries' policies do vary. But it is available far more often than not-main caveat tends to be whether the patron is charged.

An aside, but we always start in-state, nothing newer than 6 mos old, and we usually determine first if it's something we should own. If so, we'll just buy it for them even if they don't ask. Most libraries work very hard to plug any holes in their collections for their patrons.

Ralyks said:

When they rolled out Kindle Unlimited as a part of KDP Select, they retroactively applied it to people who were ALREADY in KDP select, and then simply notified us. So we never had an option to say – you know, I don't want to be a part of Unlimited. The only option is to wait for the KDP select term to expire and then not renew.

Click to expand...

This was not the only option. They clearly stated that if you wanted to immediately opt out you could do so regardless of how much time remained in your enrollment period simply by requesting such through customer service. (It's unclear how long they'll honor this for, but it's still on the KU page.)

Ralyks said:

Previously, you didn't have to lend your book if you were in KDP select. There was a box to check if you wanted to enable lending.

Click to expand...

Simply not true. Being in Select put your book into the Kindle Owner's Lending Library. That was the point.

The box that allows you to disable lending is for person to person lending. If I bought your book and wanted to lend it to my cousin with a Kindle, I could do that for two weeks. It would appear on her Kindle and be inaccessible on mine. Books that are earning the 35% royalty can be opted out of that lending. But all Select titles have always been available for that one-a-month Prime borrow--that's the entire purpose of Select.

As far as I can tell, there's no option *not* to be a part of Unlimited if you are in KDP select. You can opt out of it only by opting out of KDP select altogether. When they rolled out Kindle Unlimited as a part of KDP Select, they retroactively applied it to people who were ALREADY in KDP select, and then simply notified us. So we never had an option to say – you know, I don't want to be a part of Unlimited. The only option is to wait for the KDP select term to expire and then not renew.

Click to expand...

Also not true. People who do not want to be included in KU can end their Select runs immediately with no penalties or anything (such as not being allowed to upload the book elsewhere as is the case normally if you pull out of a Select 90-day run early) by notifying KDP that you want out.

Also, with regards to ILL, our library has a wonderful ILL program that encompasses the local area and a small radius of other libraries. It has never been national. I would guess at least some libraries (we're a small, fairly rural town) are the same way.

J. Tanner said:

This was not the only option. They clearly stated that if you wanted to immediately opt out you could do so regardless of how much time remained in your enrollment period simply by requesting such through customer service. (It's unclear how long they'll honor this for, but it's still on the KU page.)

Click to expand...

I didn't get that notice. I didn't even know about KU until I saw it while shopping on Amazon. I was not aware you could opt out. I just went to my shelf and saw that my books were enrolled and didn't see anyway to un-enroll them. Thanks for the info.

Kindle Unlimited Titles Off the DBW Ebook Best-Seller List

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2014/kindle-unlimited-titles-off-the-dbw-ebook-best-seller-list

The article is interesting on a number of levels--I particularly like:

After discussing several possibilities with Amazon as to how to include titles that had robust sales but also had reads on the new ebook subscription platform counted toward Amazon Kindle sales ranking, no solution was found. The conversations were constructive and amicable but, ultimately, not successful.

Oh, to be a fly on that virtual wall.

I keep thinking I want to sign up for this but then I look at the books I still have to read in my library and don't sign up. I have a lot of books to go through.

It isn't really a consideration for college. I decided to go back last year for another degree and most of my books are free through Vital Source. That is a pleasant change from the last time I went to college where ILL was a life line.

I don't know if I'll cave. I can lend from the library but I prefer to buy a book, whether it is ebook or paper.

I signed up for the free trial today and spent about 3 hours looking over the selection in "horror." (Although THAT was harder to find than Arthur Dent's notice of his house's demolition.)

You are allowed to borrow up to 10 at once. Reasonable.

I got a very recent release (as in last week) and started reading it this morning. The actual text of the book started at 13%. The first 12% was dedications, notes from the author, ads for her other books, etc.

So does this mean my opening the book to the first page will be considered a "sale" to Amazon? Or will I have to read up to 23% for it to count? I think that's a significant question that needs to be answered, especially considering how some of these authors are already trying to figure out ways to game the system. (Even though I don't have any novels published, I've already been invited into "share the love" groups, where you're supposed to give glowing reviews and 5-star ratings to the other members, who will in turn give your work 5-stars and glowing reviews.)

amniehaushard said:

I got a very recent release (as in last week) and started reading it this morning. The actual text of the book started at 13%. The first 12% was dedications, notes from the author, ads for her other books, etc.

So does this mean my opening the book to the first page will be considered a "sale" to Amazon? Or will I have to read up to 23% for it to count? I think that's a significant question that needs to be answered, especially considering how some of these authors are already trying to figure out ways to game the system.

Click to expand...

Wow, that's...sketchy. And I agree, Amazon better clarify the terms right now. Frankly, if it's 10% no matter the content, an author who frontloaded the book with ads to make a buck of me would go straight to my Do Not Read list.

Our local library has an excellent eBook/Kindle library. It's easy to use online (just log in with your library card #) for access to a great selection of books including new books and bestsellers. It's free, and the really nice thing is when your loan is up the ebook is automatically "returned" to the library, so no late fees. If you're thinking about signing up for Kindle Unlimited, check to see what your library offers first.

In my case this program has led to the sale of new books, because if I like a book I've read through the library on my Kindle, I go on Amazon and have the print version sent directly to my friend who is in prison.

ElaineA said:

Wow, that's...sketchy. And I agree, Amazon better clarify the terms right now. Frankly, if it's 10% no matter the content, an author who frontloaded the book with ads to make a buck of me would go straight to my Do Not Read list.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the author did this intentionally to make a buck off you. There's a pretty decent chance her book was like that long before KU was even a rumor, and a chance many other authors' books were like that long ago, too.

Most people didn't know KU was coming or that they'd be auto-enrolled if they were in Select. That and any book could have been that way long before KU. And even if it was enrolled after, lots of people front-load with information because they think that's how it's done, in a marketing move to get more information to a potential reader in the sample, or they don't know any better.

I'm sure there are other reasons, not the least of which is that Kindle samples are 10% of the book. A lot of people, misguidedly in my opinion, have always front-loaded to keep their samples shorter than that.

Shady intentions would probably be my last assumption. Unless you know the author or know something that leads you to believe otherwise, I'm not sure why you would even jump to that conclusion.

Sage said:

Alternatively, some people put everything at the back of the book to get the largest sample of their book in the 10% (which, IMPO, is a much better way to sell the book,

Click to expand...

That's what I do. I think a longer sample is the best way to sell a book, too. It's gotten money out of my pockets often enough. My sales improved when I offered longer samples at Smashwords, where you can adjust the sample size at will. The best marketing is the story itself.

but, hey, perhaps the author knows something about their first 10% that they don't want readers to see before purchasing).

Click to expand...

Do you mean that maybe they're hiding that the story and/or writing are bad to trick the reader into purchasing? That assumes the same kind of deceptive motivation as someone front-loading for KU, doesn't it?

I doubt most people publish knowing their work stinks but hoping to trick people into handing in their money. Just as with front-loading, I wouldn't ascribe underhanded motivations to people when there are so many other possibilities. But even if we did this, Amazon makes it super easy to get a refund.

I suspect a lot of it is patterned on what people find when they pick up the paperbacks off the rack in Wal-Mart or the Supermarket: 'HIGH PRAISE FOR [INSERT TITLE HERE]', followed by five pages of gushing one-liners from newspapers, magazines and famous authors.

As someone who reads paper books, I always find it a little jarring to look at an e-book that goes straight into page 1--I'm just not used to it. I agree, though, it's a better way to sell a book than pages of testimonials, dedications and acknowledgments.

jeffo20 said:

I suspect a lot of it is patterned on what people find when they pick up the paperbacks off the rack in Wal-Mart or the Supermarket: 'HIGH PRAISE FOR [INSERT TITLE HERE]', followed by five pages of gushing one-liners from newspapers, magazines and famous authors.

Click to expand...

VERY good point. In fact, I'm reading a paperback by a favorite author and chapter one begins on physical page 15. So I checked the Look Inside Kindle version and yep, same thing. Almost half the sampling was taken up by all that front matter.

jeffo20 said:

As someone who reads paper books, I always find it a little jarring to look at an e-book that goes straight into page 1--I'm just not used to it. I agree, though, it's a better way to sell a book than pages of testimonials, dedications and acknowledgments.

Click to expand...

Funnily enough, me too!