School Year off to a Great Start!

Hapax Legomenon said:

But when we're talking about dress code violations at school we're not talking about formality. We're usually talking about the matter of a couple of inches which, on most people you won't be able to tell unless you're staring at their thighs. Which seems kind of like improper behavior... doesn't it?

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I'm with you here, and while I may not be quite in agreement with you about the whole culture vs biology debate when it comes to how we sexualize each other, on this much I do agree with you. Dress codes should be able creating an atmosphere of professionalism and respect and when they protest over an inch or every time that is not the best way to do it and saying that it is because of guys staring at them is the wrong way to go about it.

CassandraW said:

Honestly? I've been to a couple of those European beaches, and there didn't seem to be any more ogling and leering than there is on a clothed American beach. Actually, unless it was my imagination, it felt like there was less leering (particularly in Sweden), or at least less of the type I'd find offensive and obnoxious.

(That said, I frankly don't think there's anything wrong with looking at people you find attractive. It's when it's done in an ugly, dehumanizing, and disrespectful way that I have the problem. )

In my experience, Europeans in general don't seem to have the same "GAAAH! Breasts! Nudity! GAAAH!" reaction Americans do. I lived in Germany for a bit after college. More than once I saw young people casually undress or change in front of friends of the opposite sex (at the beach, for example). They all thought it was funny that I was much more timid.

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Well I am glad to hear this. That said, I think that what constitutes looking at people you find in an attractive way and what does not could be an entirely different subject discussion since people can have drastically different ideas on it. Some might say that if a guy looks for even a couple seconds at an attractive woman on a beach or wearing a low cut blouse and a skirt above the knees in high school, that it is automatically offensive and dehumanizing. Not at all saying that is what you or anyone here necessarily things but for sure some people will say even that is dehumanizing.

emax100 said:

Some might say that if a guy looks for even a couple seconds at an attractive woman on a beach or wearing a low cut blouse and a skirt above the knees in high school, that it is automatically offensive and dehumanizing. Not at all saying that is what you or anyone here necessarily things but for sure some people will say even that is dehumanizing.

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I for one am definitely not saying that. I like a little admiration, personally. I like compliments. And I like to flirt. I think it's perfectly possible to flirt and have fun and admire someone without dehumanizing anyone.

I mean, to me, there's a world of difference between the guy who calls out "you're beautiful!" as you stroll by, and the guy (and this really happened to me the other day ) who sidled up to me on the street muttering that I had a nice a$$ and he knows what he'd like to do to it. The first makes my day. The second really upset the hell out of me.

IMO, it's quite one thing to let someone know you think they're attractive. It's another to make them feel like you think they're a piece of meat, a lesser being that they can (or should be able to) do what they like with.

CassandraW said:

I for one am definitely not saying that. I like a little admiration, personally. I like compliments. And I like to flirt. I think it's perfectly possible to flirt and have fun and admire someone without dehumanizing anyone.

I mean, to me, there's a world of difference between the guy who calls out "you're beautiful!" as you stroll by, and the guy (and this really happened to me the other day ) who sidled up to me on the street muttering that I had a nice a$$ and he knows what he'd like to do to it. The first makes my day. The second really upset the hell out of me.

IMO, it's quite one thing to let someone know you think they're attractive. It's another to make them feel like you think they're a piece of meat, a lesser being that they can (or should be able to) do what they like with.

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Agreed. A nicely phrased, sincerely given compliment makes my day, too! Leering, groping and muttered remarks about how you'd "tap that" are not welcome. Most women I know can tell the difference between, "You look lovely today!" and "I'd like to bend you over!" shouted from a passing car.

But (pulls on Buzzkill hat), that's not really here nor there with regard to the OP, I guess. But I thought it was important to point out that most women I know like sincere, respectful compliments, and don't categorize them as "dehumanizing".

Cranky said:

But (pulls on Buzzkill hat), that's not really here nor there with regard to the OP, I guess. But I thought it was important to point out that most women like sincere, respectful compliments, and don't categorize them as "dehumanizing".

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Goes for men too, I think.

Also - yes in cultures where there are fewer hangups about nudity, there is a much, much lower leer factor. I remember travelling in a South East Asian country at a time when young unmarried women routinely went topless. No leering, telling, catcalls, except from some over-excited louts from repressed "Western" cultures (I'm looking at you, Australia...)

Sorry, Cranky! I will be good. (Ok, I'll try
to be good. )

Believe it or not , that particular derail did originally start with a relevant point -- that what's considered too risque or sexy or attention-getting really depends on context and culture. It's not that miniskirts are inherently scandalous and evil. When everyone is wearing miniskirts, miniskirts don't seem either scandalous or particularly distracting. When only one girl is, it might be different -- especially if school administrators are pointing their fingers at her. It's not so much the clothes themselves -- it's the attitudes we bring (individually and as a culture) to the clothes.

IMO, the scrutiny and shame directed at a girl's clothes are far more problematic than the actual clothes most of the time.

SomethingOrOther said:

They often have hair. Hair is great. Why does everyone wax off their coat?

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Hair is great on your head. And I like a bit of pubic hair. Everywhere else? No.

If more men shaved their legs, maybe we'd find men's legs more attractive.

Cranky said:

I dunno about that last, Cassandra. My mom went to high school in the late sixties, early seventies, and she wasn't even allowed to wear *jeans* until her senior year, I think it was.

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My school didn't allow jeans until second semester of senior year.

kuwisdelu said:

My school didn't allow jeans until second semester of senior year.

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Wow! At my school, many kids never wore anything else!

CassandraW said:

Wow! At my school, many kids never wore anything else!

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Well, it was a K-12 private school. I think the elementary grades had actual uniforms.

We could wear t-shirts, but they had to be blank. The only allowed logo was the school's.

kuwisdelu said:

We could wear t-shirts, but they had to be blank. The only allowed logo was the school's.

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You know, I think if I were czar of a school dress code, that might be one of the few rules I'd be tempted to impose. So many obnoxious t-shirts out there. And that avoids the whole debate about what messages are and are not appropriate on a t-shirt in a school atmosphere.

(But then, I hate writing or logos of any kind on my own clothes! I don't like to wear my opinions on my chest, and I don't see why anyone besides me needs to know what brand I'm wearing.)

CassandraW said:

(But then, I hate writing or logos of any kind on my own clothes! I don't like to wear my opinions on my chest, and I don't see why anyone besides me needs to know what brand I'm wearing.)

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But I love my clever threadless and xkcd shirts!

CassandraW said:

You know, I think if I were czar of a school dress code, that might be one of the few rules I'd be tempted to impose. So many obnoxious t-shirts out there. And that avoids the whole debate about what messages are and are not appropriate on a t-shirt in a school atmosphere.

(But then, I hate writing or logos of any kind on my own clothes! I don't like to wear my opinions on my chest, and I don't see why anyone besides me needs to know what brand I'm wearing.)

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Guys love girls who wear any t-shirt with writing on it. It gave us a reason to stare at a girls chest for as long as we could fake a reading impairment.

Vince524 said:

Guys love girls who wear any t-shirt with writing on it. It gave us a reason to stare at a girls chest for as long as we could fake a reading impairment.

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See, and then there's that. ^

There seems to be so much energy that goes into dealing with dress restrictions and things - why not just have school uniforms? I mean, since there are rules and infringements anyway on what students are allowed to wear (or not) why not bite the bullet?

Full disclosure - I'm totally in favour of school uniforms. We have them in most schools here. They don't seem to create any problems.

mccardey said:

There seems to be so much energy that goes into dealing with dress restrictions and things - why not just have school uniforms? I mean, since there are rules and infringements anyway on what students are allowed to wear (or not) why not bite the bullet?

Full disclosure - I'm totally in favour of school uniforms. We have them in most schools here. They don't seem to create any problems.

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It's a reasonable solution, provided the uniforms aren't so expensive as to create an economic hardship. Kids can always express their wardrobe creativity outside of school. (That's what most adults have to do in the real world, right?)

Devil Ledbetter said:

The way others react to how we dress also tells us something about them.

This plays straight into the argument that it is the responsibility of girls and women to control the thoughts of boys and men by the way they dress. This kind of thinking, unfortunately, is part and parcel to rape culture reasoning: A girl can controls a boy's thoughts by the way she dresses, so it must be her fault if she is disrespected or raped by a boy. And I know you didn't say that, but the reasoning is the same.

Or maybe it means its a hot day and she's dressed comfortably. We need to quit placing the male gaze front and center of culture, and start teaching boys and men that the way we choose to dress isn't about them. "She's wearing a halter because she wants my attention!" No. She's wearing a halter because she likes that halter. Because it's hot out. Because her other shirt has a stain on it. Because she wanted to work on her tan or show off a tattoo. Let's stop encouraging males to make everything females do all about "wanting their attention."

Your post is a great demonstration of that bias.
Society's biases are capable of change, but not without confrontation. Instead of catering to the "Everything is for the male hetero gaze" bias, maybe we challenge it, and let our daughters challenge, and most importantly, start teaching our sons that girls have every right to wear whatever they want and boys have no right to degrade them because of it.

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I'll be the first to say that people should be able to dress however they chose, but I do feel that it should be appropriate for the situation.

All of my friends have seen me naked. At college I was known as 'Naked Claire' and even my postman has seen me in my pants. But how I dress at home is different to how I dress when I'm working. I just don't think it's appropriatefor me to go to meetings with my baps hanging out. Likewise if a male colleague turned up in shorts so tiny that we could see his plums. It's as much about respecting other people as it is about yourself.

Here one I've taught my own pubescent son. What do you call a girl who has had sex with hundreds of boys? He knows the right answer to this: Her name.

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I know it's not strictly on topic- but I just wanted to agree with this so hard!

Why are you so sure that many are like that? I know a ton of high school girls because I have a girl in high school. They're feminists. They are out for themselves and are shockingly less concerned with What Boys Want than society seems to think. Let's let girls be full human beings and stop jumping to the conclusion that their main motivation is Will He Notice Me?

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Back when I worked with horses my daily attire was a pair of skin tight johds or jeans, a pair of knee high leather boots and usually a vest of some typ ebecause I got too hot in anything else. The amount of comments, cat calls etc I would get was shocking. And this was something practical that I had to wear for work, I wasn't dressing to be provoative. I think sometimes subconsiously objectify some outfits and uniforms to be sexual - think firemen etc.

I would love it if our schools went to uniforms. It would solve so many problems.

The public school where my mother taught went to uniforms a couple of years after she started there. Many of the students were poor, and the school district provided three uniforms per student. The uniforms did a lot to enforce more equality across social classes. It didn't completely eliminate the evidence of families with and without resources - especially when it comes to winter coats and shoes, but it helps.

My problem isn't that my son feels left out, it's that he has such bad taste in clothing. If he had to wear a uniform, I'd at least know he's going to wear clean, well-kept clothes that match, instead of trying to sneak out in the same Minecraft creeper shirt three days in a row.

[/quote]
In my experience, Europeans in general don't seem to have the same "GAAAH! Breasts! Nudity! GAAAH!" reaction Americans do. I lived in Germany for a bit after college. More than once I saw young people casually undress or change in front of friends of the opposite sex (at the beach, for example). They all thought it was funny that I was much more timid.[/quote]

I think that a part of the problem is that we tend to equate nakedness with sex. Sex is used to sell pretty much everything and our perception of what is sexy is based on our cultural and social experiences. So when we see someone dressed in a certain way we have already been conditioned to see that as being attractive and sexual.

I know a lot of people who are more reserved following their upbrinings, experiences etc, and some people who are very relaxed about it all - I've seen pretty much everyone I know naked. And most of Ireland has seen me naked. And not in a sexual way, more of a 'I need to get changed quickly and can't be bothered to wait for you to leave the rhe oom' sort of way. But then I went to a college that was 95% female and lacking in bathrooms, so you just got used to it.

CassandraW said:

It's a reasonable solution, provided the uniforms aren't so expensive as to create an economic hardship. Kids can always express their wardrobe creativity outside of school. (That's what most adults have to do in the real world, right?)

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I think the cost is a big issue for a lot of people. It's not so bad at primary school where the uniform is mostly just a jumper shirt and tie or a polo shirt. There are summer dresses for thegirls if they want them, and for the rest of the year skirts. I got most of my daughters primary uniform in Sainbury's for just a few pounds. The only thing I had to get from a sepecialised shop was her jumper, and it was only £13, so it was affordable.

However, I have a friend who's daughter has just started grammar school (the same one I went to incidently) and the uniform is apple and bottle green and can only be bought in certain shops. And it's expensive so. To kit her daughter out for that school cost her almost £200, and that was for just one kids. But that's the problem when the uniform is a strange colour or pattern. Her son went to the same school and the boys uniform is black, so all she had to buy was a blazer and was able to get the rest of his uniform cheaper from supermarkets etc.