So that ceasefire didn't last long.

Lillith1991

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ETA: Oh, and the UN definitely does; sorry for not pointing that out!

Oh, so they'll cry war crimes for Israel, but not for Hamas? Good god am I sick of humanity and the UN. I'm sorry UN, but Hamas has committed war crimes as well; when you speak out about the bull they're doing instead of wagging your finger, I will again consider you a neutral party in this war.
 

Xelebes

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Oh, so they'll cry war crimes for Israel, but not for Hamas? Good god am I sick of humanity and the UN. I'm sorry UN, but Hamas has committed war crimes as well; when you speak out about the bull they're doing instead of wagging your finger, I will again consider you a neutral party in this war.

But UN has. So I don't know why you are wagging your finger at them.
 

Lillith1991

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But UN has. So I don't know why you are wagging your finger at them.

The UN to my knowledge has not acknowledged that any Hamas actions consitute war crimes. If you have an article or something linkable that has them straight up saying Hamas' actions are war crimes, then I would be happy to see it. And by supporting that the UN has also accused Hamas of war crimes, I mean something that all but uses the words to describe Hamas' actions, just like they're doing for Israel.
 

mccardey

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The UN to my knowledge has not acknowledged that any Hamas actions consitute war crimes. If you have an article or something linkable that has them straight up saying Hamas' actions are war crimes, then I would be happy to see it. And by supporting that the UN has also accused Hamas of war crimes, I mean something that all but uses the words to describe Hamas' actions, just like they're doing for Israel.

But doesn't the UN routinely accuse both Israel and Hamas in the same breath? "UN accuses Israel, Hamas of war crimes" is a headline I'm pretty sure I've seen a few times. Or are you referencing something more specific?

ETA: Yes - whether I google UN Hamas war crimes or UN Israel war crimes the links for the first few pages anyway go to the same stories. (Admittedly my googling powers are pretty basic.

I think the focus is on Israel at the moment because of the disproportionate and horrific results of the current actions.
 
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Dommo

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It's more of a problem relating to fighting in a place as packed as Hong Kong, rather than Israel intentionally targeting civilians.

Israel is for tactical and political reasons avoiding the use of soldiers to scour the strip. This is why they're relying on artillery and precision munitions. The problem though, is that Israel has a tough choice. Isreal can either lower palestinian casualties by using their soldiers, but realistically suffer substantially more casualties because the Hamas guerrillas would be on a much more even footing, or Israel can do what its doing now and strike Hamas but kill considerably more civilians in the process.

If intentional targeting of civilians was the goal, Israel could depopulate gaza in a few days, without using nukes. Excess civilian deaths aren't in Israel's best interest, but losing their own troops is even less palatable for the Israeli government.

I am kind of curious at what point the real politik of expending the lives of your soldiers for preserving the lives of enemy civilians becomes a real factor. At some point that thinking is probably going to come into play on the Israeli side.
 

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It's more of a problem relating to fighting in a place as packed as Hong Kong, rather than Israel intentionally targeting civilians.

Israel is for tactical and political reasons avoiding the use of soldiers to scour the strip. This is why they're relying on artillery and precision munitions. The problem though, is that Israel has a tough choice. Isreal can either lower palestinian casualties by using their soldiers, but realistically suffer substantially more casualties because the Hamas guerrillas would be on a much more even footing, or Israel can do what its doing now and strike Hamas but kill considerably more civilians in the process.

If intentional targeting of civilians was the goal, Israel could depopulate gaza in a few days, without using nukes. Excess civilian deaths aren't in Israel's best interest, but losing their own troops is even less palatable for the Israeli government.

I am kind of curious at what point the real politik of expending the lives of your soldiers for preserving the lives of enemy civilians becomes a real factor. At some point that thinking is probably going to come into play on the Israeli side.

While I'm sure most countries, given any choice will rather happily work with the idea of "We value our soldiers more than your civilians." the statement is still horribly abhorrent. At this point, they might as well just shrug their shoulders, pass the blame onto middle management, and level the whole strip.
 

c.e.lawson

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disclaimer: I hate civilian casualties in war

But...I still don't trust the numbers (given to the media and U.N. by Hamas officials) of civilian casualties, nor the blame immediately ascribed in any given attack. I suppose (hope) we will know more when proper investigations have been completed.

There's simply too much for Hamas to gain in the PR war (which is the only war they can win at this point), and too much for Israel to lose, for Israel to be cavalier about Palestinian civilian risk or to intentionally target civilians. I think Hamas can orchestrate these attacks to make it look like Israel is fully to blame.

And yes, the U.N. does seem quite biased against Israel. Their resolution on July 23 (the one the U.S. voted against), shows this bias.

http://blog.unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/Resolutions-and-voting-sheet-from-S-21-Gaza-UNHRC.pdf

Elliot Abrams has this to say about it, after quoting some of the charges the resolution makes against Israel:

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07...ed:+eabrams+(Elliott+Abrams:+Pressure+Points)

Well, you get the idea: this is a biased, one-sided, mendacious resolution. The word “Hamas” is not mentioned. The firing of thousands of rockets into Israel is not mentioned. The massive system of attack tunnels through which Hamas terrorists have entered Israel is not mentioned. The fact that Hamas hides weapons in U.N. schools is not mentioned.

And remember the Goldstone report from the Gaza conflict in 2008-9. Mr. Goldstone commented on his own report after more evidence came in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document
.

And lastly, here is a video interview from a few days ago (yes, it's on Fox News) with a Lebanese American woman who says she has personal experience with how Islamic terrorists use human shields.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73NtxQ0OLnQ
 

Lillith1991

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But doesn't the UN routinely accuse both Israel and Hamas in the same breath? "UN accuses Israel, Hamas of war crimes" is a headline I'm pretty sure I've seen a few times. Or are you referencing something more specific?

ETA: Yes - whether I google UN Hamas war crimes or UN Israel war crimes the links for the first few pages anyway go to the same stories. (Admittedly my googling powers are pretty basic.)

I think the focus is on Israel at the moment because of the disproportionate and horrific results of the current actions.

I'm referencing the number of UN schools found with Hamas tunnels or munition stores. Those are war crimes and yet we see the UN do nothing more than taking Hamas' toys away for a while and wagging their finger like a disappointed parent whenever they find them.

I don't disagree with the focus on Israel's actions, just that the UN uses much harsher language than when they're dealing with Hamas. To me that comes across as disingenuous.
 

mccardey

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I'm referencing the number of UN schools found with Hamas tunnels or munition stores. Those are war crimes and yet we see the UN do nothing more than taking Hamas' toys away for a while and wagging their finger like a disappointed parent whenever they find them.

I don't disagree with the focus on Israel's actions, just that the UN uses much harsher language than when they're dealing with Hamas. To me that comes across as disingenuous.

Oh, I see - thanks for explaining.

ETA: Now I'm going to have to look up the definition of war crimes - but I think you're right in that endangering civilians probably figures in the rule book...
 
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mccardey

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Does anyone have access to this article? Or failing that, does anyone have a very factual idea of what the Hannibal protocol is? I have this
In order to prevent national torment and potentially weakening to the demands of the enemy, the IDF has made a decision to sacrifice the individual life for the sake of the nation. Such moral bargains are not ones into which the censor wants the NY Times to delve.
- but I don't know anything about the source.
 

mccardey

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Sent to your inbox.

Thank you - got it. It seems that it's understandable in theory and unacceptable when people are involved. Which is kind of the problem with all of this, isn't it?

ETA: This, in the Guardian today - in comments - #1872:
You should understand for example that most Israeli citizens have no idea how many Palestinians were murdered in this war, the mainstream Israeli media doesn't report it at all. There was even a move by the Israeli Ministry of Communications to block foreign media in Israel, but this proved too complicated for now. Yet, most Israelis still trust their Hebrew newspapers and believe what they read in them, so thay are compeltely cut off from any factual reporting. In addition, the mainstream media (which is entangled with the political class, and sponsored by the same tycoons) is pumping up a narrative of mortal danger; as if every Jew in Israel is about to be viciously exeterminated by Hamas (a primitive guerilla force, who actually only managed to kill 3 civilians till now) in a second Jewish Holocaust.
is very similar to something an Israeli friend was saying to me two days ago.
 
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c.e.lawson

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I have definitely seen casualty totals in Jewish on-line newspapers. This was in Haaretz today under Live Updates, Operation Protective Edge, day 27.

The Palestinian death toll in the Israeli operation has passed 1,700, including about 400 children. At least 9,000 have been wounded, the Gaza health ministry said. Rights groups have estimated that more than 10,000 houses have been destroyed in the Israeli offensive.

And another newspaper with a wide circulation, Israel Ha Yom also reported casualty figures in this article, although it did say there was a discrepancy between those reported by the IDF and those reported by Gazan human rights groups.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=19209
 
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mccardey

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It's a biggish discrepancy, but I suppose the fog of war thing comes into play. I'm hearing 1841 killed and 9370 injured.

ETA: Thanks for the links.
 
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c.e.lawson

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From what I understand, Israel does have a vigorous press. A very high percentage of Israelis read newspapers daily. The newspapers are privately owned. And per Freedom House, which scores various countries regarding freedom, Israel has a pretty free press. For example, in 2014, out of 100 where the higher the score, the LOWer the freedom, the U.S. received a score of 21, and Israel received a score of 30. (Russis, 81 for comparison)

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/freedom-press-2014#.U98sKrErqRg
 

mccardey

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From what I understand, Israel does have a vigorous press. A very high percentage of Israelis read newspapers daily. The newspapers are privately owned. And per Freedom House, which scores various countries regarding freedom, Israel has a pretty free press. For example, in 2014, out of 100 where the higher the score, the LOWer the freedom, the U.S. received a score of 21, and Israel received a score of 30. (Russis, 81 for comparison)

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/freedom-press-2014#.U98sKrErqRg

Oh that's interesting - thank you. According to that, it's a higher freedom rating than Australia as well.
 

raburrell

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Israeli newspapers are independent, yes. However, the main television news channels, Channel One and Channel 33 are state run. (which isn't to say Israeli television isn't free - al Jazeera operates a bureau in Israel, for example. It's a BBC-type thing) That said, Channel One isn't above a bit of propaganda now and then - last week, there was a laughably fake "transcript" over a purported conversation between Netanyahu and Obama they put out, and later stuck by, despite its ridiculousness.

To McCardey's point, Palestinian casualty figures are being reported, at least from what I see in Haaretz, but based on the blogs I'm reading, the mood in Israel at the moment seems to be similar to the mood here ca 2002 (aka post 9/11), in which the casualties are terrible, but necessary to keep the country safe and people would rather not think about them too much.
 
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onuilmar

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Pardon me, if this is a repeat of a previous post, but it appalls me. And unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis have the military strength to do this.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

(Ismael Mohamad / United Press International) .

“Concentrate” and “exterminate”: Israel parliament deputy speaker’s Gaza genocide plan

Submitted by Ali Abunimah on Sun, 08/03/2014 - 16:31


Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, has published a plan for the total destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza.


His detailed plan, which calls for the use of concentration camps, amounts to direct and public incitement to genocide – a punishable crime under the Genocide Convention.

In a 1 August posting on his Facebook page, Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, calls for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”
 
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raburrell

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One killed in multiple attacks in Jerusalem

One Israeli was killed today in Jerusalem by a Palestinian man who drove an excavator into a bus; hours later a gunman opened fire in public, seriously injuring at least one person.

The guy driving the excavator was shot and killed, the shooter in the later attack escaped and is being sought by security forces.
 

mccardey

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Nathan Thrall has an interesting and informative article in the London Review of Books on the causes of the latest crisis (which is not, of course, the cause of the whole disaster.)
The current war in Gaza was not one Israel or Hamas sought. But both had no doubt that a new confrontation would come. The 21 November 2012 ceasefire that ended an eight-day-long exchange of Gazan rocket fire and Israeli aerial bombardment was never implemented. It stipulated that all Palestinian factions in Gaza would stop hostilities against Israel, that Israel would end attacks against Gaza by land, sea and air – including the ‘targeting of individuals’ (assassinations, typically by drone-fired missile) – and that the closure of Gaza would essentially end as a result of Israel’s ‘opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods, and refraining from restricting residents’ free movements and targeting residents in border areas’. An additional clause noted that ‘other matters as may be requested shall be addressed,’ a reference to private commitments by Egypt and the US to help thwart weapons smuggling into Gaza, though Hamas has denied this interpretation of the clause.

ETA Per wiki: Nathan Thrall is an American writer, journalist, and Middle East analyst. He is currently a Jerusalem-based Senior Analyst with the Middle East & North Africa Program of the International Crisis Group covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan, and the West Bank. His writing has appeared in English in The New York Times, The New Republic, GQ, Slate, and The New York Review of Books, and in Arabic in Al-Hayat, Asharq al-Awsat, and Al-Quds al-Arabi. A contributing editor at Tablet Magazine and a former member of the editorial staff of The New York Review of Books, he has been interviewed by The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, the BBC, NPR, and CNN.
 
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mccardey

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So there's another ceasefire (72 hours) in the offing? Let's hope this lasts longer. Guardian reports:
All sides agree to ceasefire plan
“Hamas told Egypt a short while ago of its acceptance of a 72-hour period of calm,” Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters.

They’re to meet in Cairo.

The planned start of the ceasefire, 8am local time, is just under 8 hours away. It’s 12.21am in Gaza.
 

William Haskins

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jimmy carter:

The international community's initial goal should be the full restoration of the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza through Israel, Egypt, and the sea. Concurrently, the United States and EU should recognize that Hamas is not just a military but also a political force. Hamas cannot be wished away, nor will it cooperate in its own demise. Only by recognizing its legitimacy as a political actor -- one that represents a substantial portion of the Palestinian people -- can the West begin to provide the right incentives for Hamas to lay down its weapons. Ever since the internationally monitored 2006 elections that brought Hamas to power in Palestine, the West's approach has manifestly contributed to the opposite result.
 

raburrell

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I'd say it's pretty hard to argue with the last part, personally. The rest, no comment.

In a different vein, for those interested in the social media aspect of the war, here's a strangely beautiful and informative set of visualizations showing how Israel, Gaza, and the rest of the world have reacted publicly to the last month's events.

While most of it is graphs, I found the warning at the end very true:
The better we get at modeling user preferences, the more accurately we construct recommendation engines that fully capture user attention. In a way, we are building personalized propaganda engines that feed users content which makes them feel good and throws away the uncomfortable bits.

We used to be able to hold media accountable for misinforming the public. Now we only have ourselves to blame.