St Louis County - Police Officer Fatally Shoots 18-Year-Old (Michael Brown)

robjvargas · Aug 11, 2014

Vince524 said:
I'm just adding the link. When stuff like this happens, it's best to wait for concrete stuff. I've seen cases where witnesses come forwards and start to claim things like the cop shot the person in the back of the head, meanwhile that wasn't the case. Or people speculate on it, making up scenarios and a news outlet picks it up and people think it's fact. There's a lot that we don't know.

There just seems to be an awful lot of guitly until proven innocent in these cases. The rhetoric coming out of the community isn't helping.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of TV reports in the past couple of years that have *ever* interviewed a "witness" that corroborates the police side of the story. After a bit, that starts to look as farfetched as the "we never do wrong" reports from the police themselves.

Still, there's a bit of a "smell" to the police report. And it ain't roses.

backslashbaby · Aug 11, 2014

I agree that the police story sounds fishy, definitely. And I wish the police chief would phrase things as if they were being investigated instead of stating 'the police story'. He's stated what happened inside of the car, but how could they know that for sure yet? If it's the officer's version, it's the officer's version, not necessarily what really happened. Maybe they have enough evidence already, but I really think that that should be emphasized if true.

On the other side, Alderman Antonio French is acting as a sort of spokesperson. He's listed 'protestor demands'.

Retweeted by Michael Skolnik Antonio French @AntonioFrench · 5h
Protestor Demand #2 - the firing of the officer who killed #MikeBrown
https://twitter.com/hashtag/MikeBrown?src=hash

Retweeted by Michael Skolnik
Antonio French @AntonioFrench · 5h

Protestor Demand #1 - The identity of the officer who killed #Mike Brown

The department is apparently releasing the identity tomorrow, and I think that's good because I'm all about transparency. If folks have experience with this officer, they need to know that he's a suspect here (or should be right now).

As far as the firing, I don't know about that. I mean, it's being investigated by the FBI now. That takes a little time. I completely understand wanting justice, but justice doesn't happen in one day (unless things are very clear). I actually don't even know if Officer Kerrick in the Jonathan Ferrell case was fired that fast, and with the dash-cam and two officers' accounts of what happened, Charlotte Police Chief Rodney Monroe's department had him under arrest within 19 hours. That's with video and police witnesses!

I understand pushing for justice, but nothing in this incident is going to make the officer not have shot Brown. The only justice right now is how the system handles it, and investigations are proper. They can't just skip all of the procedural stuff and declare a verdict.

If they looked to be dragging their feet or not investigating, like in the Trayvon Martin case, then that's different. But the FBI is now on it. Other than how the chief's statements are phrased and the slow release of the officer's identity, I don't see what else can be done differently so quickly.

Finally, I keep seeing criticism on Twitter of bringing out riot police for 'peaceful protests'. There have been peaceful protests, certainly, but there have also been straight-up riots. I think riot police are appropriate. Better safe than sorry when it comes to possible riots.

My own parents were tear-gassed in the 60's, and that's just the way it goes sometimes, imho. It's better than people getting really hurt, assuming the police can be trusted to hold back. The police did last night in St Louis County, so that part is all good, I think.

Xelebes · Aug 11, 2014

I'm hearing from other St. Louisians (on the St. Louis Blues forum) that there were cops showing up at the vigil either to provide security or what not and that may have antagonised the crowd. Don't know. Also getting a different vibe from St. Louisians than one might expect after the rioting.

Vince524 · Aug 11, 2014

I think it's good that the FBI is taking over. With something like this, it's hard to police yourself. We'll see what they find.

Again thought, it seems to me that the protesters have already reached to conclusion that this is a bad shooting. So I'm worried that if evidence points the other way, the riots will get worse. It almost seems like it would be better if all the evidence points to a cop completely out of control and indefensible. Which this may turn out to be just that. But the entire point of an investigation is to determine what happened and why, not to reach a forgone conclusion.

Gretad08 · Aug 11, 2014

Xelebes said:
I'm hearing from other St. Louisians (on the St. Louis Blues forum) that there were cops showing up at the vigil either to provide security or what not and that may have antagonised the crowd. Don't know. Also getting a different vibe from St. Louisians than one might expect after the rioting.

I have read several accounts, and have multiple friends who were there last night. There were definitely peaceful protestors, but also protestors who were screaming "fuck the police, kill the police." Decidedly not peaceful. I'm proud of the way the police handled the violence and threats last night. There were officers not just from St. Louis, but also surrounding counties that had to leave their families to walk in to mayhem.

A man was interviewed who had been part of the peaceful protestors. He said things were going fine at first. Police were respectful, and so were the protestors. Unfortunately, another crowd appeared, and all hell broke loose. He said the peaceful people left, afraid for their safety.

As far as the vibe around here, people are not happy for a variety of reasons. Obviously the shooting, first and foremost, but the rioting and looting really has everyone pissed. In the mid to late 90s ferguson had really gone downhill. It was dangerous because of gang activity. Businesses had moved away, and no one was moving to that area. There has been considerable work done to build up that community, and this is a huge setback to that effort.

I'm so disgusted right now. I don't even know what to think. This is going to have huge ramifications for St. Louis and the surrounding areas.

Vince524 · Aug 11, 2014

A link to a local news source.

backslashbaby · Aug 11, 2014

Gretad08 said:
...

As far as the vibe around here, people are not happy for a variety of reasons. Obviously the shooting, first and foremost, but the rioting and looting really has everyone pissed. In the mid to late 90s ferguson had really gone downhill. It was dangerous because of gang activity. Businesses had moved away, and no one was moving to that area. There has been considerable work done to build up that community, and this is a huge setback to that effort.

I'm so disgusted right now. I don't even know what to think. This is going to have huge ramifications for St. Louis and the surrounding areas.

Yeah, I saw this last night being tweeted out of STL:

The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of futility.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/martinluth101853.html#RguB6EGkIFHvElwr.99

nighttimer · Aug 11, 2014

Vince524 said:
There just seems to be an awful lot of guitly until proven innocent in these cases. The rhetoric coming out of the community isn't helping.

Well, maybe the sight of an unarmed teenager shot to death and left bleeding and baking on the hot August asphalt put them in a sour mood.

Vince524 · Aug 11, 2014

nighttimer said:
Well, maybe the sight of an unarmed teenager shot to death and left bleeding and baking on the hot August asphalt put them in a sour mood.

I'm sure it has. And my heart breaks for the family.

Gretad08 · Aug 11, 2014

nighttimer said:
Well, maybe the sight of an unarmed teenager shot to death and left bleeding and baking on the hot August asphalt put them in a sour mood.

I have no idea what protocol is, but wouldn't a body be left untouched until evidence could be collected? I seriously don't know.

ShaunHorton · Aug 11, 2014

Gretad08 said:
I have no idea what protocol is, but wouldn't a body be left untouched until evidence could be collected? I seriously don't know.

I would think that it would at least be policy to cover a body that is in public view. Especially if it's going to be there for a few hours.

backslashbaby · Aug 11, 2014

Gretad08 said:
I have no idea what protocol is, but wouldn't a body be left untouched until evidence could be collected? I seriously don't know.

They put a sheet over him, of course, but I don't know how long it takes to clear the scene that way.

But bodies in homicides do need to be part of the investigation, I agree. I guess it depends on whether they also took good photographs of his exact position and the blood, put up evidence markers where shell casings were found, etc. If they end up not having preserved evidence, then they did need to go on and get the poor boy to the morgue

I hope they did preserve it, though, even though that would keep the body on scene longer.

I don't know whether that many hours is unusual or not. I've certainly followed murder cases where the victim lay covered for much longer, but those were cases where the perpetrator/situation was unknown and they were photographing and marking the area all day or night hoping to get every bit of evidence possible. You'd think they could exclude a lot of ground in this case since folks saw it happen.

backslashbaby · Aug 11, 2014

ShaunHorton said:
I would think that it would at least be policy to cover a body that is in public view. Especially if it's going to be there for a few hours.

I cross-posted with you. They did cover him, absolutely. AAMOF, the parents are angry that the most viral (uncovered) picture is being shown so much by folks.

Xelebes · Aug 11, 2014

Hearing there are more flare-ups occuring right now. To the St Louisians here, stay safe.

backslashbaby · Aug 11, 2014

Yes, Twitter has exploded again. Rubber bullets (may be rumor) and tear gas (shown) tonight. I always forget how freaky that must seem to folks younger than I am.

It doesn't sound like as much looting and arson tonight, but the heavy police presence is really causing an uproar, and gunshots are apparently being heard. So sad!

Gretad08 · Aug 11, 2014

There was some minor looting at two of our malls. There is a situation that I'm watching live right now. No one seems sure what's going on yet.

Okay, SWAT is marching toward protestors right now. They've fired tear gas to try and get people to go back to their homes. Very disturbing to watch. Police are yelling at people to go home and theyre screaming at cops "no you go home!"

The reporter just got hit with tear gas and they cut the feed.

robjvargas · Aug 12, 2014

The police story doesn't make sense. I don't trust it. But CNN cites the story according to Dorian Johnson, who was walking with Michael Brown:

Johnson told KTVI he hid behind a car, but Brown stopped after a second shot was fired. Brown held up his hands to show he wasn't armed, Johnson and Crenshaw said, and the officer shot him twice.

"(The officer) shot again and once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air," Johnson told KMOV. "He started to get down and the officer still approached with his weapon drawn and fired several more shots."

That doesn't make sense, either. How does Mr Johnson know what Michael "felt"? If he was hiding behind a car, how did he see this?

It seems like the truth is going to be somewhere altogether different, and I don't know how anyone is going to find it.

Sheryl Nantus · Aug 12, 2014

Gretad08 said:
Businesses had moved away, and no one was moving to that area. There has been considerable work done to build up that community, and this is a huge setback to that effort.

I'm so disgusted right now. I don't even know what to think. This is going to have huge ramifications for St. Louis and the surrounding areas.

Unfortunately I can see quite a few businesses not opening back up again if they were targeted. Aside from the trouble of going through the insurance companies to get their money they might figure it's not worth the trouble to stay in a community that doesn't appreciate them.

I can understand being at the police station. Looting a shoe store for the newest Nikes or a wireless store for cell phones doesn't do much other than hurt the community.

I've already seen appeals for the criminals to be turned in to try and soften the economic hit. Problem is that, as with so many other events, there are always going to be people who take advantage of someone's misery to benefit themselves.

And it overshadows the event itself. How many pictures are we seeing today of the rioting and looting versus those of the peaceful protesters demanding answers for a grieving family and shocked community?

Xelebes · Aug 12, 2014

robjvargas said:
That doesn't make sense, either. How does Mr Johnson know what Michael "felt"? If he was hiding behind a car, how did he see this?

Maybe he didn't see it but heard it? Michael screamed or made some other noise to indicate that he had been hit?

Cella · Aug 12, 2014

This has been a rough weekend for our neighborhood. This is all taking place just blocks from me. I don't know just how much of it the national new is covering, but it has been basically 3 days of utter chaos. My family and I are still in shock that this is all really happening right now.

While my home is on the upper side of a hill and been left unscathed, the smell of the burning gas station and tear gas made it's way over. The sounds shouting and gunfire is clear and the helicopters just don't stop. Last night we heard flash bangs just as dusk was falling. Today at noon they are releasing the name of the officer, so I'm afraid that's going to stir everyone up again.

I feel like so much of this was mishandled from the get-go but don't know how to fix it. Community leaders are calling for peace and non-violence.

Here are some images from Twitter

I find this last one especially chilling.

Devil Ledbetter · Aug 12, 2014

I'm really sorry this is going on in your neighborhood, Cella.

It broke my heart to see the boy's mother on the news last night. I could not look at her face without crying, and can't picture it now without tears.

I think the "mishandling" was the shooting itself. I can't judge or blame this boy's community for getting violent and destructive in response to his murder. Calm, reasoned voices against police brutality have not stemmed the tide of police brutality. If the resulting riots lead just one cop to lower the gun he has aimed at yet another unarmed citizen, just one precinct to change its culture of "shoot first, ask questions later" then I think it's justified.

Is it unfair to those homeowners and businesses suffering damage? To those losing peace and security? Yes. Of course. But not as unfair as being slaughtered at 18.

Fruitbat · Aug 12, 2014

My second cousin was shot and killed in that area a few years ago. I guess someone considered the pizzas he was delivering more valuable than his life. I'm so glad to be gone.

Emilander · Aug 12, 2014

robjvargas said:
The police story doesn't make sense.

Agreed. In fact, the only way it makes sense is if the officer royally fucked up. Suppose there was an altercation at/in the car involving the officer's weapon. Either the officer misidentified his target and shot the wrong man or he used deadly force against policy and shot someone when they no longer presented a deadly threat.

If any good will come out of this, hopefully people will push for body cameras for all uniformed cops.

cmhbob · Aug 12, 2014

I'm not normally one to defend the cops. And I'm an ex-cop.

But keep in mind that when your body thinks you're in a fight-to-the-death, it doesn't just shut off like a switch. If, for instance, there really was an altercation at the cruiser door for the cop's gun, or he reasonably believe one was happening, it's hard for him to shut off the adrenaline, the oh-my-god-he's-trying-to-kill-me-i-have-to-shoot-him-right-now-or-I'm-going-to-die rush that is forcing him to draw his weapon.

If the officer believed the other man was trying to get his duty weapon away from his, that's a lethal force situation, and all bets are off.

Basically just a reminder that it's easy for us to second-guess things from the safety of our keyboards.

escritora · Aug 12, 2014

robjvargas said:
T

That doesn't make sense, either. How does Mr Johnson know what Michael "felt"? If he was hiding behind a car, how did he see this?

Seems to me Johnson was hiding behind a car and Michael ran passed the car, in Johnson's line of vision. So Michael was in front of him and the car, not directly behind the car.

St Louis County - Police Officer Fatally Shoots 18-Year-Old (Michael Brown)

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Delerium ex Ennui

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

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No Gods No Masters

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

AW's resident Velociraptor

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Delerium ex Ennui

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Holding out for a Superhero...

Delerium ex Ennui

Cella

Come on you stranger, you legend,

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Did...did I do that?

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