Baltimore Ravens Release Ray Rice

Devil Ledbetter

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"I woke up this morning feeling like I had a horrible nightmare, feeling like I'm mourning the death of my closest friend. But to have to accept the fact that it's reality is a nightmare in itself. No one knows the pain that the media & unwanted [opinions] from the public has caused my family. To make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret every day is a horrible thing. To take something away from the man I love that he has worked his ass of for all his life just to gain ratings is horrific. THIS IS OUR LIFE! What don't you all get. If your intentions were to hurt us, embarrass us, make us feel alone, take all happiness away, you've succeeded on so many levels. Just know we will continue to grow & show the world what real love is! Ravensnation we love you!"

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-81314300/
Well, that answers that question.
 

robjvargas

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I have no ill will toward Janay at all. I just want to know that her choice *is* a choice, and not a feeling that there's no other option.
 

Devil Ledbetter

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I have no ill will toward Janay at all. I just want to know that her choice *is* a choice, and not a feeling that there's no other option.
It doesn't take ill will to violate her privacy. And understand I'm not criticizing you -- I watched the video too when Perks (who I am sure also doesn't have a shred of ill will toward Janay) posted on FB yesterday, and here I am discussing it, same as you.

However misguided or confused about what love is she may be, it's interesting that the talk is of her choices rather than Ray Rice's choice to pummel her into unconsciousness. Was it a choice, or did he feel there was no other option?

It's weird to me how when a woman is victimized we default to talking about her choices and actions. At least that facet has been called out quite a bit in this story.
 
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nighttimer

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I was going to ask about Michael Vick who, after playing for the Falcons, spent 21 months in prison for his dogfighting conviction then came back to the NFL and "was named the 2010 NFL Comeback Player of the Year and was selected to his fourth Pro Bowl" [from The Fount Of All Human Knowledge] but I suppose you covered him in "other law breakers."

Maybe Vick doesn't even stand out overall as egregious in the NFL, and I'm not even a football fan, but as I've lived in the Atlanta area when he was on the team and before the dogfighting thing came out, heard about him on the team and his $30 million contract, heard him on commercials, ... it was egregious for a Falcons player and the biggest downfall in Atlanta in a while, but maybe the Falcons have a better reputation than most other NFL teams.

At least he's banned from playing with the Falcons ever again - what does a player have to do to get banned from ALL NFL teams? Perhaps say bad things about the NFL?

Not to refight old battles, but why should Michael Vick be banned from the NFL?

It's not as though Vick wasn't arrested, booked, fingerprinted, tried, convicted and imprisoned. It's not as though Vick lost that $30 million contract, the commercial endorsements, the mansion, and his freedom.

Reprehensible? Disgusting? Vile? For what he did Vick is all those things and more, but killing a dog is not remotely as reprehensible, disgusting and vile as beating a woman into unconsciousness.

Michael Vick was punished for his crimes. He will never regain his standing as a player in the eyes of the public. Wherever he goes and whatever he does as his career winds down as a journeyman backup quarterback, he will always be known as the guy who tortured and killed dogs.

But enough already.

If Vick didn't pay a reasonable price for his sins, it would be one thing. But he torched his career, blew a lucrative contract, went bankrupt, spent 19 months in prison and became a public pariah. That wasn't a reasonable price? Every prison sentence has four goals: remove a lawbreaking person from society; assess an appropriate penalty; incarcerate the individual as a deterrence from ever breaking the law again; and hopefully, rehabilitate him or her to become a contributing and upstanding member of society. With Vick, the first three goals were accomplished. The fourth goal seems to have been accomplished. What more do you want? Deny him a chance to make a living? Under what constitutional umbrella? The man paid his price.

Much like how O.J. Simpson raised awareness about domestic abuse, Vick did the same for animal abuse. Both men did it unwittingly and disgraced themselves in the process, but there's a crucial difference: By continuing his football career, becoming an animal rights activist and repeatedly acknowledging his mistakes, Vick will do more good than harm. That's what made it so crazy when PETA protested during the early stages of Vick's comeback. What was it protesting? That a contrite person who paid for his sins and vowed to be an animal rights advocate ... um ... shouldn't do those things? An organization allegedly devoted to the welfare of animals chose to antagonize someone who, whether it liked it or not, could now improve the welfare of animals. Savvy! But hey, that's America in the 21st century for you: Extremists tend to favor being extreme over exercising common sense.

Eventually, Vick found his voice as a spokesman for the Humane Society. Cynics might say Vick reached that point for the wrong reasons; optimists might say it ended beneficially and that's all that matters. But if you believe in redemption, how can you not admire the way Vick humbly reinvented himself, dumped every negative influence in his life, surrounded himself with the right voices, picked an NFL franchise that was devoted to making him a better person, quickly won over his teammates and coaches, gracefully handled every interview (and a few biting questions), stayed out of trouble, waited patiently for a chance to shine, then crushed that chance when he got it? What else is left? Was there a box on the "How to salvage your career and character" checklist that Michael Vick didn't check?

It is apparent Vick is the default go-to Bad Guy when people want to find an NFL baller they despise. Vick is a easy pick. Say his name and watch the eyes roll, the hissing start and the fingers point.

Thing of it is, if you only believe in punishment for the crime and not rehabilitation it only ensures an endless loop of recidivism and more anti-social behavior. Vick doesn't deserve sympathy, but he does deserve a second chance.

Now Ray Rice...? There's been no punishment which makes his rehabilitation a doubtful entity.
 

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I wondered from the beginning if she'd even seen the video before all this broke. I don't know which way to hope for her on that.

Besides the hit being physically painful and hugely dangerous, and beyond whatever complexities have a vote in her decisions before the beating and after, I am very sorry for her humiliation. Jenay Palmer's public persona will get thrown under the progress-bus and the resulting discussions may have valuable long-reaching effects. But we can still (and should still) acknowledge how miserable this has to be for her.
 

robjvargas

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However misguided or confused about what love is she may be, it's interesting that the talk is of her choices rather than Ray Rice's choice to pummel her into unconsciousness. Was it a choice, or did he feel there was no other option?

It's weird to me how when a woman is victimized we default to talking about her choices and actions. At least that facet has been called out quite a bit in this story.

No default for me. You'd already stated the shame that he isn't being prosecuted for this. I agree, and had nothing to add. I think that's a miscarriage of justice.

This was a violent crime. I fault the relevant prosecutor's office for not pursuing this.

And yes, it was absolutely a choice by Ray Rice. A freakin' criminal choice. IMO, of course.
 

robjvargas

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I wondered from the beginning if she'd even seen the video before all this broke. I don't know which way to hope for her on that.

Where she goes from here is entirely her choice, and isn't for me to know.

Doesn't stop me from wishing things one way or another, though. I just wish for wherever it is her best happiness lies. I may not think Ray Rise is part of that, but the call is hers, without even the need to justify it to me (or anyone else).
 

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I meant that I don't know whether to hope she'd already seen the video before all the hubbub yesterday. It has to be very hard on her to have that out there for everyone to watch and wonder over.
 

vsrenard

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Not to refight old battles, but why should Michael Vick be banned from the NFL?

[snip]

Thing of it is, if you only believe in punishment for the crime and not rehabilitation it only ensures an endless loop of recidivism and more anti-social behavior. Vick doesn't deserve sympathy, but he does deserve a second chance.

Now Ray Rice...? There's been no punishment which makes his rehabilitation a doubtful entity.

There are some crimes for which individuals and society have deemed there is no rehabilitation. At least some members here have expressed in other threads there is no rehabilitation for child murderers, pedophilia, etc. Some people feel that way about domestic violence. And some feel that way about animal abuse.

To me, it speaks only of the power of a bully--a man who tortures a dog may just as well beat a woman or a child just because he can.
 

rugcat

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Not to refight old battles, but why should Michael Vick be banned from the NFL?.. .

Reprehensible? Disgusting? Vile? For what he did Vick is all those things and more, but killing a dog is not remotely as reprehensible, disgusting and vile as beating a woman into unconsciousness. . .

. . . It is apparent Vick is the default go-to Bad Guy when people want to find an NFL baller they despise. Vick is a easy pick. Say his name and watch the eyes roll, the hissing start and the fingers point.
There is a reason that Michael Vick is the go-to bad guy.

Interesting how the two situations are phrased. Ray Rice is described as guilty of "beating a woman into unconsciousness." This brings up the image of a powerful man beating a woman, hitting her over and over as she struggles in fear and desperation until finally she collapses into unconsciousness.

Except of course that's not what happened. He basically sucker punched her one punch and knocked her out. A disgusting move, but accurately describing it as a sucker punch does not carry the same emotional impact as does describing it as beating someone into unconsciousness.

Michael Vick is described as "killing a dog." Which is not quite accurate either. Michael Vick killed many dogs over a long period of time. Not only did he force the dogs into the disgusting spectacle of dogfighting, but those that didn't measure up or we're not just killed it – they were tortured to death.

Some were hosed down with water and then electrocuted. Some were hung from nylon cords gasping for air until they died. Some were beaten to death, slowly,until they died.

Trying to play the game of whose actions were worse is silly, of course. And there is certainly a point of view that says any harm done to another human being is automatically worse than harm done to an animal, no matter what the circumstances.

I don't buy it. We see quite a few cases of horrific abuse at our local animal shelter. Dogs starved and beaten so badly they've lost an eye and although some become fearful or aggressive, some remain as sweet as ever. It's heartbreaking.

People who do that sort of thing, people like Michael Vick, are not only vile and despicable but for me are incomprehensible.

What Ray Rice did was truly awful. What Michael Vick did, for years and years, is truly beyond my comprehension. The attitude of some seems to be "sure what Vick did was bad, but they were only dogs after all. Why is everyone making such a fuss about it? There are people who do far worse things -- like punching a woman."

Of course, in general I like dogs a lot better than I like people in the first place. So yeah, there should be a special place in hell for those who torture helpless animals.

Whether the NFL should have the power to ban either person from their livelihood for their actions is a separate question.
 
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regdog

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All of this is true. I did watch the video yesterday. But I have to say I now wonder if she actually consented to having this video revealing her broken, private relationship, her vulnerability and her attack plastered all over the internet. Maybe it "helps" shine a spotlight on domestic violence, but is it fair to her personally? Or does privacy go out the window for the sake of the "greater good"?

Just wondering aloud.

I'm not sure privacy is an issue in cases where the assault takes place in a public setting.



One problem I have is that too many times domestic/child abuse is deemed a "private matter" thus making it easier for the abuse to continue and the victim feel more helpless.
 
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nighttimer

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I wondered from the beginning if she'd even seen the video before all this broke. I don't know which way to hope for her on that.

Besides the hit being physically painful and hugely dangerous, and beyond whatever complexities have a vote in her decisions before the beating and after, I am very sorry for her humiliation. Jenay Palmer's public persona will get thrown under the progress-bus and the resulting discussions may have valuable long-reaching effects. But we can still (and should still) acknowledge how miserable this has to be for her.

Where she goes from here is entirely her choice, and isn't for me to know.

Doesn't stop me from wishing things one way or another, though. I just wish for wherever it is her best happiness lies. I may not think Ray Rise is part of that, but the call is hers, without even the need to justify it to me (or anyone else).

I meant that I don't know whether to hope she'd already seen the video before all the hubbub yesterday. It has to be very hard on her to have that out there for everyone to watch and wonder over.

Mrs. Rice is very much okie-dokie with her hard-hitting hubby and she's singing "Stand By Your Man" loud and long.

A day after a new video surfaced showing Ray Rice hitting his then-fiancée in the face in a hotel elevator, prompting the Baltimore Ravens to release the running back and the NFL to increase his suspension from two games to indefinite, Janay Rice defended her husband and criticized the media.

"I woke up this morning feeling like I had a horrible nightmare, feeling like I'm mourning the death of my closest friend," she wrote in an Instagram post. "But to have to accept the fact that it's reality is a nightmare itself. No one knows the pain that the media & unwanted [opinions] from the public has caused my family. To make us relive a moment in our lives that we regret everyday is a horrible thing.

"To take something away from the man I love that he has worked his ass off for all his life just to gain ratings is horrific. THIS IS OUR LIFE! What don't you all get. If your intentions were to hurt us, embarrass us, make us feel alone, take all happiness away, you've succeeded on so many levels. Just know we will continue to grow & show the world what real love is! Ravensnation we love you!"


Stockholm Syndrome or simply another battered wife defending her abuser from the shame and scorn he brought upon himself?

Janay Rice honestly may not consider herself a victim and that's the worst sort of abuse.
 

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Right. I understand all that. Since there was question of who saw the elevator interior film and when, I was just wondering out cyberloud if she had seen that footage before everyone else did.

If it was shocking to us, I have to imagine it was also to her, if not more so. I mean, she knew it happened and felt the after effects, but watching it from fly-on-the-wall perspective has to be surreal.

That's all my comments were about.
 
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I am with rugcat. All things being equal, of course abusing a human is worse than abusing a dog. But what Rice did (at least in this incident) happened in a flash of anger. Doesn't excuse it, but it indicates he has serious anger management problems, not necessarily that he is an evil man. What Vick did was ongoing, deliberate, planned, and with full knowledge of what he was about.

That said, I agree with nighttimer that the man did his time, and if you believe his crimes are so heinous that he should be forever ostracized from society and forbidden to work again, then we might as well just start executing everyone convicted of a felony.

That goes for Rice too (except he hasn't been convicted, nor taken even a half-step towards redemption).
 

clintl

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I am with rugcat. All things being equal, of course abusing a human is worse than abusing a dog. But what Rice did (at least in this incident) happened in a flash of anger. Doesn't excuse it, but it indicates he has serious anger management problems, not necessarily that he is an evil man. What Vick did was ongoing, deliberate, planned, and with full knowledge of what he was about.

That said, I agree with nighttimer that the man did his time, and if you believe his crimes are so heinous that he should be forever ostracized from society and forbidden to work again, then we might as well just start executing everyone convicted of a felony.

That goes for Rice too (except he hasn't been convicted, nor taken even a half-step towards redemption).

I agree with this.
 

regdog

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But what Rice did (at least in this incident) happened in a flash of anger. Doesn't excuse it, but it indicates he has serious anger management problems, not necessarily that he is an evil man. What Vick did was ongoing, deliberate, planned, and with full knowledge of what he was about.

That said, I agree with nighttimer that the man did his time, and if you believe his crimes are so heinous that he should be forever ostracized from society and forbidden to work again, then we might as well just start executing everyone convicted of a felony.

That goes for Rice too (except he hasn't been convicted, nor taken even a half-step towards redemption).


No one knows if this is a one time flash of anger or continual ongoing abuse. That may have been only one of hundreds of punches he's thrown at her, just the only caught on camera.
 

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No one knows if this is a one time flash of anger or continual ongoing abuse. That may have been only one of hundreds of punches he's thrown at her, just the only caught on camera.


Hence my "in this incident" caveat.
 

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… That said, I agree with nighttimer that the man did his time, and if you believe his crimes are so heinous that he should be forever ostracized from society and forbidden to work again, then we might as well just start executing everyone convicted of a felony.

I recall some years ago when Mike Tyson was accused of committing rape (shortly after, but before it went to trial.)

A reporter asked him if he should be allowed to box.

He responded with words to the effect of: It's my job. Why shouldn't I be allowed to do what I do for a living?

As despicable an act as is rape, torturing dogs, or beating one's spouse, it's hard to argue with one's right to go to work. (Until and unless, of course, such a person is tried, convicted, and sentenced to prison.)
 

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Am I misinterpreing something? The video they showed on our news tonight shows her hitting him on the way to the elevator, and again in the elevator. He hits her back. She falls and hits her head on the hand rail.

Is there another video? Or am I missing something?

This is not an excuse for him hitting her. There is no excuse for hitting someone. But it did not look like it came out of nowhere, either.

We need better words for 'hit', imho. She should not have tried to slap him or whatever very fast thing she does that had zero physical effect on him. Absolutely. Slapping or trying to slap someone is wrong.

But to knock her out cold? This is a man who obviously could have held her arms down if there was a problem that involved self-defense of any sort. That would be understood completely, I think. Look at Jay-Z. Nobody blames the bodyguard for being abusive there.

If she slapped Rice, she could and should be charged with a crime. But the response on the receiving end should be more like calling the police than knocking a much weaker person out cold. That goes regardless of gender, imho. He wasn't afraid of her hurting him, so he had zero excuse to do what he did.
 

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As despicable an act as is rape, torturing dogs, or beating one's spouse, it's hard to argue with one's right to go to work. (Until and unless, of course, such a person is tried, convicted, and sentenced to prison.)

Well, maybe if your job is an anonymous one. But companies and industries that live and die on their brands (and advertising those brands) have reputations that figure heavily into their profit and loss statements.

Sluggo can toil away on an assembly line or deep in a cubicle farm of some greyscale corporation and blend in with the scenery. Sports figures and other celebrated, visible worker bees might cause their employers a bit of dyspepsia if their crimes become headlines.
 

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As despicable an act as is rape, torturing dogs, or beating one's spouse, it's hard to argue with one's right to go to work. (Until and unless, of course, such a person is tried, convicted, and sentenced to prison.)

It's not hard to argue at all. If you get caught in a public place carrying out domestic violence, I'm all in support of the employer canning your tail. It should not take a criminal conviction to allow an employer to pass judgment on a public act like that.
 

nighttimer

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No one knows if this is a one time flash of anger or continual ongoing abuse. That may have been only one of hundreds of punches he's thrown at her, just the only caught on camera.

That what makes this whole episode so unsettling.

We're all aware of domestic violence. Some of us are witnesses. Some of us are abusers. Some of us are abused.

The Ray Rice videos disturb me so because the result was seen first and the cause second. Watch Rice dumping a limp and unmoving Janay Parker on the floor. There is no concern, no sign of anxiety or looking for help. He certainly isn't panicked or worried.

Rice looks completely nonchalant. He looks casual and indifferent. Like it's no big deal. He looks like someone who has done this sort of thing before.

Now add in Roger Goodell, the micromanaging meddler of a commissioner of the National Football League who claims neither he nor any of his employees/flunkies ever saw the video of Rice striking Palmer. The hotel had the video. Rice's attorney had the video. How is it conceivable the NFL didn't?

It isn't. Either Goodell is a incompetent fool or a mendacious con man and I lean to the latter descriptor.

The NFL, the Ravens and Rice all tried to pull a fast one on the public. They almost got away with it. Now its time for damage control, media spin and C.Y.A.

Don't believe any of the hype. :rolleyes
 
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RedRajah

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Mind you, there's always the option of Goodell being an incompetent con man, NT.
 

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Well, the Ravens are going to offer a jersey exchange in the stadium during games, so people can trade in their Ray Rice jersey for another player's. This is similar to what the Patriots did with Hernandez.