The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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M. Story

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ResearchGuy said:
Thanks, Ken, for the link. I really enjoyed reading the blurbs! Very funny! James McD, you are awesome for coming up with the idea, & contributing authors--you rock!!!
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Marlene
 

Jaws

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Sassenach said:
FWIW, I never use the word 'author.' I'm not published in fiction, but I know tons of romance writers [some multi-published and household names] and they refer to themselves as writers. Our organization is Romance Writers of America.
Actually, there is a darned good reason to say "author:" U.S. Constitution, Article I, § 8, cl. 8, and by derivation the Copyright Act, says "author." "Writer" means, at least in the excessively hairsplitting practice of publishing/copyright/entertainment law, someone who contributes part of an incomplete project. That's why they say "screenwriter:" The work isn't complete until filmed. And so on.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Marlene, there are far more than five unethical publishers/agents in the world. You might want to check over at Preditors&Editors for the name of your publisher. You might also email Ann or Victoria privately with the publisher's name.

More tests of publishers: Can you find their books on the shelves of your local bookstore? Have they published books by people you've heard of?

--------------------

More on Atlanta Nights.
 

DreamWeaver

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victoriastrauss said:
Subjects I think we have discussed enough:
Oops! Well, there go the two posts I had lined up to send. Time to change tack...

I've seen a few comments either from or about writers with books published by PA, that imply the said authors will unfortunately always have that PA book as a millstone around their neck, or a skeleton in their closet, or insert-your-own-saying-here. I don't agree with that. I think if your next book is good, and is published by a reputable publisher, the PA book will become nothing more than a footnote.

If you write a couple more good books, I bet the PA book recedes even further, ending up as nothing more than a strange historic oddity, no matter how badly edited, misspellchecked, uglified by the cover from Hades, or even poorly written that first, PA-published book was.

If you become the next Tolkien, after 50 years it may be embarrassing to have university graduate students studying that first, PA-published work for deeper meanings and hidden significance. But hey, you'll probably be dead by then anyway so why worry?

JMO, but I don't think any ex-PA author should worry about their PA credits blighting their future.

Kris
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robeiae

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DreamWeaver said:
I think if your next book is good, and is published by a reputable publisher, the PA book will become nothing more than a footnote...If you write a couple more good books, I bet the PA book recedes even further...

The trick is, just never bring up the PA book again. It's not like PA prints alot of books. Really, what are the chances of stumbling onto a PA book first "published" in 2004 in, say, another 20 years? PA even admits that it has not sold any copies of some books, meaning there may only be five of each in circulation, now and forever. Who is gonna know? Chalk it up to experience and move on...(yes, I know it's easy for me to say this and hard for PA authors to actually do)

Rob
 

DeePower

Survey says!

Okay all the data is not in yet, but in our continuing research we are surveying literary agents. One of the questions we asked was "Does a vanity/subsidy published book help or hurt the chances of a writer becoming published by a commercial advance and royalty paying publisher?" Rate on a scale of 1 - 5, 1 means substanially hurts, 5 mean substantially helps. So far the responses have been neutral, the average is very close to 3.

Dee
 

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Okay all the data is not in yet, but in our continuing research we are surveying literary agents. One of the questions we asked was "Does a vanity/subsidy published book help or hurt the chances of a writer becoming published by a commercial advance and royalty paying publisher?" Rate on a scale of 1 - 5, 1 means substanially hurts, 5 mean substantially helps. So far the responses have been neutral, the average is very close to 3.

Dee

Wow, Dee! Thanks for the research. I must say, however, that tends to chap my hide just a fraction. Just because I "took a wrong turn in Albuquerque" doesn't parallel with the fact that I might have something worth their while in the works. I did complete a new manuscript recently and have started sending out queries to legitimate agents that I found through AAR. My only hope is that the query knocks their socks off. What other hope is there for those of us who blindly stumbled into the every sticky PA "web"? I will not sit back on my haunches on this, moving forward!
A.S.
 

Ken Schneider

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Well, evidently I have a registered letter at the post office from P.U.

The funny thing is I can never get it and it will go back to them. I'm working when the post office is open, and can't get there. My mail is taken to the post office by someone else. I won't sign it anyway, so, it's a mute point.
 

reph

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changling said:
Well, evidently I have a registered letter at the post office from P.U.

The funny thing is I can never get it...
You can sign something authorizing another person to act as your agent for the purpose of collecting the letter.
 

DreamWeaver

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DeePower said:
...we are surveying literary agents. One of the questions we asked was "Does a vanity/subsidy published book help or hurt the chances of a writer becoming published by a commercial advance and royalty paying publisher?" ...[snip] So far the responses have been neutral, the average is very close to 3.
Oh my, I LOVE it when independent research agrees with my theories :).

Makes sense, though--no harm, no foul as far as future works are concerned. Though I don't think I'd ever describe what PA does to authors' present works as no harm, no foul.

Kris
Reducing sentence length one post at a time.
 

James D. Macdonald

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WrongturninAlbuquerque said:
Just because I "took a wrong turn in Albuquerque" doesn't parallel with the fact that I might have something worth their while in the works.

What it works out to is that having a PA book doesn't matter. It isn't a "foot in the door," it isn't a "stepping stone." It doesn't count as a publishing credit.

Why doesn't it count as a credit? Because no one selected the work. There was no gatekeeping going on. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad -- but the same could be said for a manuscript that never left your desk drawer. You don't list those unpublished manuscripts in your cover letter. Neither do you list PA books.

In a way, this is a good thing. If PA books were considered publishing credits, with their typical sales, you wouldn't be considered a new and untried author -- you'd be considered a proven flop.
 

Christine N.

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Yeah, if you become the next Tolkein and grad students are studying your first works for deeper meaning, they'll have a hard time getting a hold of it, b/c by then PA will be ancient history and that first book will be out of print. Of course, the few copies that were printed will be collectors items worth thousands of dollars.

Wow, there's a way to spin that PA book, huh? :)
 

Ken Schneider

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James D. Macdonald said:
What it works out to is that having a PA book doesn't matter. It isn't a "foot in the door," it isn't a "stepping stone." It doesn't count as a publishing credit.

True Jim. It does say something about the person. They had the fortitude to see the project through. Wrong as it may be, unware of the publishing market-green- a fault in itself. And, having been through the process with P.U., you will know the pitfalls the next time. A hurt filled lesson without a doubt.

One shouldn't submit their first work, or second work, or third work. Why? If you have written several manuscripts, look back at your first effort, then look at your lastest effort. I think you get the picture. They'll be a better writer after several stabs, and have a better chance to publish.

More proof that P.U. takes anything, first stabs and all.
 

Sher2

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Dolan said:
Come away from there, Jean Marie. They are mean to your dog and even your mother.

Come over here. I'm the only person here who is close to mean and I promise not to say anything to you or anything about your dog.

There are many, many, wonderful folks here. I'm the only bad apple. One out of the many here is good odds. Just give the people here a trial run. Come on.
Oh, poo, Dolan, anybody who'll play hopscotch and hula hoops with me (and let me win) isn't mean. Anyone who is unkind to dogs, however, is unfit company and JM ought to hie herself away from them PDQ. They're not doing her any favors and the more she speaks her mind, the worse it's going to get.
 

astonwest

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MMo said:
The rights grab only holds hostage the current work; this "option" holds the author's career hostage.
Unless PA refuses to accept the work under 'good faith negotiations'...
SeanDSchaffer said:
Yeah, that's what I thought. My contract has a different Paragraph 28 in it. And I went over the contract thoroughly last night; there is no such paragraph anywhere else in my contract, either.
As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure they removed the clause from later contracts...they were probably getting a lot of complaints from would-be authors who didn't sign because of the clause. At least that's my guess...
 

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astonwest said:
Unless PA refuses to accept the work under 'good faith negotiations'...

Yes. We used that "good faith negotiations" wording to free me of one option restriction. It can be done. What we need to be sure to do is to keep reinforcing that information so that PA authors who may feel trapped know there is a possible bolt-hole.

Mo
 

Patricia

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DaveKuzminski said:
May I suggest then, at the risk of dropping into red square territory, that we apply the term (derived from spline) as follows to: PlublishAmerica? ;)

I have no problem with Plublish(America) Dave. It would look good with your "larry creep."
 

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changling said:
One shouldn't submit their first work, or second work, or third work. Why? If you have written several manuscripts, look back at your first effort, then look at your lastest effort. I think you get the picture. They'll be a better writer after several stabs, and have a better chance to publish.

I actually sold my first novel; however, I didn't do so until after I had written and sold several more and I was able to look dispassionately at the work and perform the necessary surgery my first-born needed to be able to survive in the cold, cruel world. This was a dozen years after I first typed "the end" and a couple of decades after I first started writing the book. It can be done.

I really loved this book, you see, and I wanted, needed to see it in print. I suppose if it hadn't been published, I'd still be pulling it out of the desk drawer with a certain regularity, trying to see where it had gone wrong.

Sometimes there's really nothing wrong with a work, except that it's on the editor's desk at the wrong time. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with the work that a good editor can't guide you through. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with the work that studying, working, and improving your craft can't fix.

Good luck to all of you.

Mo
 

DaveKuzminski

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SeanDSchaffer said:
Yeah, that's what I thought. My contract has a different Paragraph 28 in it. And I went over the contract thoroughly last night; there is no such paragraph anywhere else in my contract, either.

Most of the credit for that falls to Victoria and Ann of :Hail: Writer Beware.
 

Susan Gable

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changling said:
One shouldn't submit their first work, or second work, or third work. Why? If you have written several manuscripts, look back at your first effort, then look at your lastest effort. I think you get the picture. They'll be a better writer after several stabs, and have a better chance to publish.
.

Well, I don't know that I'd go that far. I sold my second ms. I know a number of people who sold their first. (To big romance publishers, just so we're all on the same page. :) )

Although even before my first "real" ms, I did a lot of fanfiction where I honed craft points like POV, show vs. tell, etc. So there was a lot of writing before I got to true mss.

Susan G.
 

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New releases

Hmmm (looking perplexed ...), some of the new releases over at PA actually look rather intriguing. A pity I cannot pop over to B&N and leaf through them. Too expensive and too much of an uncertain thing to order sight unseen.

:-/

--Ken
 

DeePower

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Wrong turn said:
What other hope is there for those of us who blindly stumbled into the every sticky PA "web"?

I fell in the web. I got out.

There is hope. I got published after the PA book. I gotta tell ya, every author is unpublished before that first book. To those of you who think I am now pimping our new book, I'm not. If I came away with anything, any morsel, any tidbit, from interviewing the bestselling authors it's they didn't give up.

Nicholas Sparks penned several novels before “The Notebook” was published. Stephen King’s “Carrie” was the fifth novel he’d written. James Patterson’s first mystery was turned down by 31 publishers (and later won an Edgar Award). Mary Higgins Clark’s first story took six years and 41 rejection slips before it was finally published. Her first novel was, as she puts it, “a commercial disaster.” Her second, “Where Are the Children?” was a bestseller. Janet Evanovich’s first three attempts were, in her own words “sucky un-sellable manuscripts.”

Think about it. Rejection is the pits. Arm pits, peach pits, pit and the pendulum take your choice. It is something nearly every author faces.

Your Publish America book (and mine) is neutral. Doesn't help, doesn't hurt. As Jim said, think of it as a manuscript in your desk drawer.

Dee
 

akaa1a

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~~Your Publish America book (and mine) is neutral. Doesn't help, doesn't hurt. As Jim said, think of it as a manuscript in your desk drawer. ~~Dee Power

Thanks Dee!
I think I finally feel like posting again. This thread, while necessary and informative, can also be really daunting.

I feel a new project coming on...
 

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Want to see a little progress?

Here are the links that come up on the first page of a Google search for PublishAmerica - if you had done this search a year ago the results would have been far different:

PublishAmerica, Inc.

Making Books (washingtonpost.com)
[size=-1]... "I'm happy to inform you that PublishAmerica has decided to give your Bare Bones
... PublishAmerica does use POD technology -- saving manufacturing and ...
www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25187-2005Jan20 - Similar pages[/size]

[size=-1]IT: Instructional Technology: PublishAmerica: Expensive POD
[size=-1]... PublishAmerica: Expensive POD. I have been watching the growth of Print on
... a post that shows just how incompetent, and greedy, PublishAmerica is. ...
www.digitalmedievalist.com/it/archive/000254.html - 8k - Apr 22, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages[/size]
[/size]

[size=-1]Keith Snyder
[size=-1]... and Editors" page on which their warning about PublishAmerica appears. ...
Any post that does not support PublishAmerica has been removed within 24 ...
journalscape.com/keithsnyder/2003-12-02-12:48 - 11k - Cached - Similar pages[/size]
[/size]

[size=-1]PublishAmerica - An Author's Nightmare
[size=-1]... MD POD Publishing House PublishAmerica have been targeted by a collective ...
When I checked out PublishAmerica's website, all red, white and blue with ...
express-press-release.com/7/ PublishAmerica%20-%20An%20Author's%20Nightmare.php - 43k - Cached - Similar pages[/size]
[/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]Absolute Write Water Cooler - PublishAnyone in breach of contract
[size=-1]... I've heard people say they are trying to get out of PublishAmerica contracts.
Well, they just nixed mine and returned my rights to me on the basis of ...
www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10109 - 42k - Cached - Similar pages[/size] [/size]
[/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]Atlanta Nights - The Worst Book Ever Written
[size=-1]PublishAmerica Sting. Would they publish the worst book ever written? To dispel
PublishAmerica's statements that they are a "traditional publisher" and ...
critters.critique.org/sting/ - 6k - Cached - Similar pages[/size] [/size]
[/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]ArticleCity.com - PublishAmerica - Publishing Parasites
[size=-1]ArticleCity.com - Free Articles for Reprint. Free Articles for your web site and
newsletters.
www.articlecity.com/articles/writing/article_317.shtml - 20k - Cached - Similar pages[/size] [/size]
[/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]P&E: Book Publisher Listings
[size=-1]... Writers considering this publisher should visit the PublishAmerica forums ...
to other articles on the web detailing facts about PublishAmerica: WNBC. ...
www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages[/size] [/size]
[/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]Wonder if this page will change after the upcoming New York Times article...
[/size][/size]
 

Canada James

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Publisher Responses

I recently sat on a panel and interviewed 3 publishers. They didn't know their responses would be posted here, so I have left out their names. This is for information purposes only, so that potential/current PA authors have something to compare with when looking at PA's business practices.

A couple notes:
There were three publishers. #1 is a small press (mostly local), #2 is a large house (international) and #3 is midsize (Canada and the USA). All publishers publish Children's books & Adult novels.

I bolded some sections where they discussed author participation. Note that this was not "the publisher setting everything up so the author can simply show up with pen in hand". They were clear: they choose authors who are willing to go out and promote on their own, do the footwork, before choosing authors who expect the publisher to do it all. What good does that do you in New York if you live in Los Angeles? It gives the sales reps something to discuss when promoting your book to the bookstores. It give the booksellers something to discuss when suggesting your book because that person likes James D. MacDonald's book.

*P#1 was the only one who suggested that he'd never sign anyone not willing to sell his/her own books. I should point out that this wasn't selling to bookstores, it was selling at author events such as libraries. Bookstore placement still resided with the publisher. P#2&3 never mentioned the buying option, but stressed the active-author promotion necessity. Not that all of their authors do, but it helped sway the vote when choosing a new, unheard of author.


Anyway, here it is:

#1: How do you cost out a book and determine print run?
P#1: *** is a small literary press publishing 2-3 children's books per year … uses market price … just moved from $8.95 to $9.95 for a YA novel of 116 pages … and fiddles with font size and book size to fit longer text while keeping number of pages and costs down. Print run size depends on whether author promotes: usually 2000 per print run if no promotion, 3000 per print run if author does promote. Where does the money go? Per book: 40-50+% discount to book sellers, 10% to sales rep, 10% to royalties, 10% to distributors, which doesn't leave a huge chunk to publisher for production and profit.

P#2: *** compiles a Profit & Loss Statement (P&L) for each book, once at the acquisition stage (a prediction), and then again at publication (using actual numbers). She provided an example, which predicted figures for print runs of 3000, 5000, and 10,000. *** shoots for a Gross Margin (what they make before expenses, but after royalty calculations) percentage of over 45%, and Net Profit (what they make after expenses & overhead & royalty) percentage of over 18%, and a Cost to Retail Ratio of over 4. They want to sell at least 5000 copies in the first year, but hope to sell 4000 copies in Canada and 6000 in U.S.

P#3: Also does P&L statements at acquisition and completion. Determining print run numbers is a somewhat visceral decision. *** looks at market tolerance and other factors. ~5000 for a first run, more if advanced book club sales are good.

#2 How do you decide on a marketing budget?

P#1&2: *** is developing more and more detailed marketing plans at the acquisitions stage … about 7-10% of projected revenue. They want to spend enough to get behind the book, yet stay within budget. *** indicated that one of her jobs is lobbying internally for more marketing dollars for specific projects. Regarding foreign territory sales: usually a lump sum payment is made to ***, a chunk of which (as determined in the author's original contract) is applied to any outstanding advance, and then a royalty stream begins from the company purchasing foreign territory rights.

P#3: The biggest factor is the level of commitment from the
author. *** will invest more if author is willing to get out there and talk about the book. 7-10% is close to what *** spends, too.

#3 From the publisher's point of view, what are the most important parts of the contract.

P#2: *** compiles a "Deal Memo" (she brought an example), which outlines the basic points of a particular contract in simple language. Most important are the rights granted (North America, Canada, or World). Also important are payment terms (how much up front, upon manuscript completion, at publication), timing of dates (when each stage of manuscript is due), and rights of first refusal (that *** has the right to look at the author's next work in the same genre).

P#3: Delivery dates, formats & marketing commitments. It's
important that both the publisher and author understand each other's
expectations so there are no surprises later on.

#4 After the book is published, what do you expect from the author in the way of marketing and promotion?

P#1: Having a keen author is essential. *** wouldn't take on an author who wasn't going to market and promote, or who wouldn't buy some books and sell them at talks and readings. He sited an example of an author whose book he recently cancelled because her response to marketing was that she lived on an island and that might impact what was available to her.

P#2: If she knows the author is an active promoter (doing school &
library visits, etc), is Internet savvy, and connecting with other writers (e.g. via the INTERNET, or writers' groups), she's more likely to think "Yes, we can market this effectively."

P#3: Agreed that author promo was a consideration. Publishers have limited resources and budgets. Knowing an author is actively promoting a book makes decision-making less of a gamble.

#5 Does having an agent involved make a difference?

P#1: Doesn't get many manuscripts from agents. Rarely deals with agents. So, no, not a factor at all. *** is a small press that doesn't pay much in an advance, so it's not usually worth it for agents to submit to them, and those that do are usually poor agents, perhaps a husband masquerading as an agent for his writer wife.

P#2: It's important in adult fiction, but matters little in children's books. Children's writers don't need an agent to submit and be seriously considered by ***.

P#3: *** receives a fair number of submissions from agented children's authors, but it really doesn't make a difference in terms of the consideration a manuscript receives. In the end, it's the work that counts.

#6 What makes a good relationship between writer and publisher?

P#1: Yes, trust. Negotiate, ask about clauses, make suggestions rather than unilaterally rewriting the contract (which he said he's had authors do).

P#2: "Trust and transparency" It's important that the expectations
of each are clear to both right from the beginning.

P#3: Yes, everyone's in it for the same goal --- a wonderful book --- so making sure expectations are out in the open is key … in both directions.
 
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