After you finish will you use an editor?

johnharlin · Mar 19, 2015

From my own experience, it is almost impossible for anyone to write his or her story perfectly. I have also noticed that it is more difficult to edit your own work than another person's work.

So I am wondering if you writers will have your friends, girl friend, boy friend, husband or wife read your work, or hire a professional editor, or submit your work and hope that a book publisher will have their editors do it.

Since my work is a nonfiction history book, I do hope to hire some historical editor or go to the local historical society and get a recommendation from them.

ShadowVixenX · Mar 19, 2015

I'm currently working on the first draft of my novel and plan on having my boyfriend (who is an avid reader) help me do the first couple of edits. After that I'll probably have my professors help me, I mean writing a book or something publish worthy is the senior project for my degree so I might as well take advantage of that and use my resources to my advantage.

So to answer your question, yes I will use an editor who is not me to edit my work.

Aggy B. · Mar 19, 2015

No.

I do have another author friend who functions as an alpha-reader for me (looking at pieces of the rough draft). And sometimes I get a few folks to beta-read for continuity before I send it to my agent. But all edits are done by me and the extent of the feedback offered by readers or my agent is structural, not detailed line edits. (I.e. "The pace on this chapter seems slow." Or "Weren't they going to do X first?")

Learning how to edit your own work is difficult, but necessary. Otherwise you may find it difficult to maintain the integrity of your work, and should you eventually sell a book you'll still have to apply the editor's suggestion for development on your own. (An editor will not rewrite your book. Even line edits require you to go through and evaluate and apply the changes suggested.)

blacbird · Mar 19, 2015

Yeah. Me.

caw

Fruitbat · Mar 19, 2015

@John, ITA. Writing is an interaction between what goes on in your mind and what actually goes on the page, for one thing, so there are always blind spots. I don't consider anything I write finished until I at least have my husband read it out loud to me. We nearly always find something that is better changed, anything from a word choice to a plot hole. The finished piece is better for it, no matter how many times I've been through it on my own. Learning to accept criticism is so necessary. Of course the final decision is always yours anyway. Good luck with it!

BethS · Mar 19, 2015

I do my own editing, until the day comes when a publishing house acquires the manuscript, at which time I'll work with an in-house editor.

dondomat · Mar 20, 2015

With the self-publishing wave there are now OK editors who will do a book for like $100, and if a beginner author has the money--why not?
In my case, after working with house editors, my self-editing levels soared too. After the 6th or 7th house editor I actually began understanding what it is that makes my writing third-rate, and this motivated me to try and become second-rate.
Very likely that feedback from an editor-for-hire will also do one lots of good in the development department. Or at least make the manuscript presentable enough for self-publishing or for some house editor to take over.

Thewitt · Mar 20, 2015

dondomat said:
With the self-publishing wave there are now OK editors who will do a book for like $100...

And how large a book can be edited for $100?

I've not seen anyone quoting less than $0.005 a word, which for my second book comes in at $650, my first book at more than $1300 - which is exactly what I paid.

That rate would mean your book is only 20,000 words...

dondomat · Mar 20, 2015

I quote no rates, Thewitt, I have never used such a service. Last year I looked around the web to see what was available for a friend who had just finished a memoir. I remember seeing some real bargains, around the aforementioned $100 price tag. She negotiated with some of them and maybe even used the services of one of them. I remember her sounding pleased, at any rate.

Right now, I wrote "affordable book edit" into my search engine, and this popped out: http://www.global-editing.com/ $300 per novel.

I remember last year I found a relevant goodreads place where affordable editors lurked, can't find it now, neither am I willing to invest more than 1 minute into that effort. Anyone with a stake in the race however, is likely to find very affordable editing around the $100 I mentioned, done by a) retirees and seniors who are bored and want to edit books in genres they like, b) hungry students, c) editors just entering the market.

If all this is useful to anyone, super.

lizmonster · Mar 20, 2015

One big reason I pursued the trade publishing route is because I wanted a professional edit. My contingency plan, if that hadn't panned out, was to hire a freelance editor and self-pub. I felt I was at a point where my writing wasn't going to grow much more unless I got professional, external feedback.

So yes, I'm pro-editor.

It's been a fascinating process for me in many ways.

Aggy B. · Mar 20, 2015

Uh, yeah. Editing (by a professional) before publishing is absolutely necessary.

Having someone else (either a friend or a paid editor) edit your manuscript before submission is not a good idea.

Fruitbat · Mar 20, 2015

@Aggy- Maybe we are getting mixed up on terms. In my experience, writing that has had no eyes on it but the writers tends to (not always) just not be very good. Other writers, and just other readers, often have very valuable input. So, I would never discourage people from getting "critiques," and I would take them where I could get them. I can't imagine any reason I would not want to hear whatever anyone had to say about my writing. And then, of course, you learn just as much by critiquing other people's work in return. I would take it from there, and only use what I agreed with, so there's no reason to guard it. Unless you mean something different by "editing." But either way, the writer is getting the benefit of other opinions and is free to use or discard them, so... ?

Filigree · Mar 20, 2015

Because editing is not writing, critiquing, proofreading, or beta reading. Like Aggy, I have an alpha reader who yanks my chain up short, whenever my writing strays too far from common sense and coherence. I have beta readers who can go into tighter analysis of what works for them. They are not editors. I appreciate their 'free' (barter and mutual obligation) help.

My agent and my publisher's editors work on whole new levels of excruciating depth and detail. I can self-edit better now, for their instruction. Self-editing is an absolutely critical skill for any writer - without it, it's like you're driving blind. I still wouldn't release a self-published book until it received at least the same outside scrutiny as my commercial work. And I'd save up for it, because the only two freelance editors I trust are pricey but worth it.

I've seen a lot of self-published work from authors who *thought* they knew how to edit. Or they paid bargain-basement prices for substandard editing. To be fair, I've seen the same problem from many smaller presses, who may use lesser-skilled editors (if any). This can show in passive voice, awkward pacing, word choice errors, chronic typos, plot holes and gaps, and poorly-developed or undeveloped characters.

To add: if an author is submitting work to a commercial publisher, there's really no reason to hire a paid editor first. It may slightly improve chances of escaping the slush pile, but any mms good enough to sign is going to get edited in-house. (Why authors need to edit as much as they can.) Great paid editing comes into play for serious self-published authors who want to offer commercial or better-than-commercial work.

Fruitbat · Mar 20, 2015

Sure, but there's no reason critiques, betas, self-editing, and professional editing need to be either/ors.

Filigree · Mar 20, 2015

Of course not. Writers need to have trustworthy outside scrutiny at certain stages of their work. But it's dangerous to assume that beta readers and critique partners can do the same job as an editor. That's rarely the case.

Fruitbat · Mar 20, 2015

I know. I think we have gotten messages mixed up somewhere along the line and now I don't know where. lol.

Lillith1991 · Mar 20, 2015

Fruitbat said:
Sure, but there's no reason critiques, betas, self-editing, and professional editing need to be either/ors.

I think what Aggy and Filligree are trying to say is that they're not the same thing. If you're self-publishing and want to turn out professional work you should use both, but for commercially published stuff it's a waste of money to pay someone to edit something someone else will be editing for no cost to you when it's picked up somewhere.

Aggy B. · Mar 20, 2015

Editing implies more than just "I had a friend go through and look for typos." It's also different than beta-reading where someone other than the author provides feedback on what does or doesn't work for that individual. (And yes, getting outside feedback or critique is important as you hone your craft. But that is not the same as "editing".)

Editing usually has two main phases. The first is the developmental edits. This involves addressing pacing and plot, filling in or streamlining subplots, polishing character arcs, and, in general, fine tuning the story to have the greatest appeal to that particular publishers market. My agent provides developmental feedback sometimes. I listen to what he suggests because he knows which editors he will be sending a particular book to - what those editors look for, which books they've acquired in the past, what they're interested in now. Alpha/beta-readers don't have that insight so if they say "This needs to change," I'll be thinking long and hard about whether that's best for my book.

After developmental edits there are line edits. These deal with the grammar mechanics, word-choice, comma placement, etc. Some of which will involve matching a manuscript to a specific house style. Alpha/beta-readers may be able to help you clean up outright errors, but can't provide consistent line edits for house style. (And I've run into a few critters who edit for "correctness" and ignore voice/tone/style, thus churning out suggestions that outright kill a story.)

So, yes. There's a difference between editing and critiquing. And unless one is self-publishing, having someone help you "edit" a book before submission is, at best, an expense that is probably unnecessary. (I'd also suggest that unless one's friends/family members actually work as fiction editors that they will not provide the kind of help necessary. Even if they are enthusiastic and willing to do it for free.) At worst paying an editor and depending on them to show you how to polish your book can damage your work. A publisher wants to see what you are capable of writing, not what you can write with the help of a professional. (They have professionals on staff to do the additional polishing. They want to see the "raw" product so to speak.)

Naturally, YMMV.

growingupblessings · Mar 20, 2015

Aggy B. said:
Editing implies more than just "I had a friend go through and look for typos." It's also different than beta-reading where someone other than the author provides feedback on what does or doesn't work for that individual. (And yes, getting outside feedback or critique is important as you hone your craft. But that is not the same as "editing".)

Editing usually has two main phases. The first is the developmental edits. This involves addressing pacing and plot, filling in or streamlining subplots, polishing character arcs, and, in general, fine tuning the story to have the greatest appeal to that particular publishers market. My agent provides developmental feedback sometimes. I listen to what he suggests because he knows which editors he will be sending a particular book to - what those editors look for, which books they've acquired in the past, what they're interested in now. Alpha/beta-readers don't have that insight so if they say "This needs to change," I'll be thinking long and hard about whether that's best for my book.

After developmental edits there are line edits. These deal with the grammar mechanics, word-choice, comma placement, etc. Some of which will involve matching a manuscript to a specific house style. Alpha/beta-readers may be able to help you clean up outright errors, but can't provide consistent line edits for house style. (And I've run into a few critters who edit for "correctness" and ignore voice/tone/style, thus churning out suggestions that outright kill a story.)

So, yes. There's a difference between editing and critiquing. And unless one is self-publishing, having someone help you "edit" a book before submission is, at best, an expense that is probably unnecessary. (I'd also suggest that unless one's friends/family members actually work as fiction editors that they will not provide the kind of help necessary. Even if they are enthusiastic and willing to do it for free.) At worst paying an editor and depending on them to show you how to polish your book can damage your work. A publisher wants to see what you are capable of writing, not what you can write with the help of a professional. (They have professionals on staff to do the additional polishing. They want to see the "raw" product so to speak.)

Naturally, YMMV.

Thank you for this. I honestly couldn't figure out what people were talking about before I read your post. It seems like "editing" is a word that acts as a catch-all for any kind of repair done to a story, from commas to core content.

Maryn · Mar 20, 2015

I behooves us (I hardly ever get to use that word!) to be lined up on the differences between developmental edits, copy edits, and proofreading. Cathy Clamp explained it clearly here. Luckily, she made an amusing typo right at the beginning (edititorial) that made it searchable, or I might never have found it.

Any discussion about how much of what type of editing the author can do, what critiques or beta readers can do, and what needs professional attention will be clearer if we agree on what "edit" means and if we specify which type of edit we're talking about.

Maryn, stickler

Jamesaritchie · Mar 20, 2015

If you can't edit, you can't write well, either. Editors are good things, but a good editor never rewrites anything, ever. A real editor's job is simply to help make teh book better by suggesting this change or that change, which the writer has to implement.

Good editing skills are necessary to implement these changes.

If you're self-publishing, you can do whatever you like, but no editor can help a bad writer, and the only thing a good writer needs an editor for is to get suggestions on how to make the book better. But even the best suggestions aren't worth anything unless the writer has both the writing and editing skills to make them work.

If you plan to go the conventional route, hired editors are a joke. I know from experience that even the best of them usually makes changes that an in-house editor will hate, and want changed back the way they were.

The simple fact is that writing and editing skills are the same thing, and if you can't edit very, very well, you can't write well, either. The same is true of grammar. If you lack grammar skills, you also lack writing skills.

A proofreader is something else. Most writers need a good proofreader, but in the end, even proofreaders make mistakes, and it's up to the writer to make the last pass to catch those mistakes.

If you have to hire an editor, how are you going to make it through what may be a huge rewrite/revise job after a publisher wants teh book? Are you going to hire that editor again? There probably won't be much time, but how will you handle it without that editor?

If you find you can handle it without that editor, then you didn't need that editor to start with. I really don't care how good that editor is at anything. The question is how good are you? If the hired editor is better than you are, don't send me your book, send me his.

ishtar'sgate · Mar 20, 2015

BethS said:
I do my own editing, until the day comes when a publishing house acquires the manuscript, at which time I'll work with an in-house editor.

This. I have a single first reader but that's all they are, a reader. They give me feedback on whether or not it's a story they'd read if they found it on the shelf of a bookstore. If so, why, if not, why not.
My usual editing process is to let novel-length works sit for a few months and then begin editing. Something I've added is the use of my voice recorder phone app. I'll read and record a chapter and then play it back and listen, pausing the recording to make notes where needed. It's a nice tool.

Katharine Tree · Mar 20, 2015

No. This is my hobby and I do not spend money on it, only time. If some day I get a contract and someone gives me an editor at no expense to myself, great. Other than that, nope.

rockondon · Mar 20, 2015

I initially intended to self publish my book and had full intentions of hiring an editor.

My plans changed and now I'm planning on going through and agent and publisher if I can. The publisher will have its own editor and I'll work with him/her. I've edited it numerous times myself, read it aloud to my fiancé, and have beta readers going over it before an agent sees it.

ash.y · Mar 20, 2015

Ideally, my future publisher's editors will work on the manuscript.

In the meantime, I'm lucky to have my good friend and fellow editor act as my critique partner, and I'll be getting beta readers too.

I'd like to reiterate the differences in editing depending on who is helping you and the level of work being performed. There are editors, critique partners, and beta readers; there is developmental editing, line editing, proofreading, and reader reports. (<--That is far from an exhaustive list!) There are combinations and variations of these that cover a broad spectrum of editorial depth, skill level, and savvy.

Most writers who are seeking traditional publishing get the best value out of CPs and beta readers, who usually provide something more along the lines of critique and reader response than an edit. A full professional edit would presumably happen (and happen most effectively) with the in-house editors of a publisher.

Self-published authors benefit most from freelance editors. But ALL authors should work to hone their self-editing skills. It's virtually impossible to look at your own work with a clear critical eye, but it's critically important to put your very best effort into personal revisions, because it's a reflection of how strong your craft is.

Yes to self-editing, critique, and professional editing!

After you finish will you use an editor?

Not as sweet as you think

.

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Not as sweet as you think

.

Mildly Disturbing

.

Mildly Disturbing

.

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Not as sweet as you think

Drinking lots of coffee

At Sea

living in the past

Þæt wæs god cyning

Absurd and Obscure