"no one owns culture"

kuwisdelu said:

a real apology looks like.

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Wow, that is really refreshing to see!

Yes, it is amazing and fantastic. And I wish HK would do something, personally, in that direction. I don't know her (I don't mean personally -- I mean know in the way people follow the careers of celebs) and I have never watched the show, but I do know it is as hugely popular here as in the US.

The thing is that Germany is truly eons beyond America in cultural awareness and sensitivity, simply because is is such an incredibly homogenous country. It also has a "love-affair" with Africa, and you-all would cringe at some of the stuff that comes out. I watch on a regular basis just so I can cringe -- all the movies set in "Africa", with of course white protags and really nice, sweet, positively-portrayed black natives. Occasionally there is a bi-racial love-story -- Germans has one famous black actress, and she invariably gets to play the female love-interest. I don't know of any black German actors, but they do have a black Morning SHow presenter, who is immensely popular, and has done it for the last 30 years or so! Cliches and stereotypes abound about "Africa" -- none of it blatantly racist, in that the intention is "loving".

But living here myself for over 40 years I have become exceedingly patient and understanding. Society and its attitudes does not change in one day or one decade. I can vouch for the fact that Germany has moved forward in leaps and bounds as far as attitudes are concerned. I remember when I first came as a shy and insecure 23 year old, how I stood out (or thought I did) everywhere and how uncomfortable I felt. It's quite different now, as I am fully assimilated. My skin colour doesn't matter. I am not in any way exotic or different. And I like it that way. But it's been an interesting process. Not at all like in a country where there is a significant and very outspoken PoC community. Here, you are virtually on your own.

I don't think we can expect such a radical and sincere apology here. I doubt many Germans are even aware of the kerfuffle -- it would have been kept under the radar; as there is not a huge NA population here I'm not at all sure who did all th protesting. It won't have been regular Germans.
What I am trying to say is that try as we might to hold Germany to the same standards and expectation as America, it won't change except at its own pace.

It's an interesting phenomenon; I might even start a separate thread.

This article is interesting—and timely:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/8...hy-hipsters-think-it-s-ok-to-wear-headdresses

Lillith1991 said:

What's his being black have to do with any racist attitudes she has towards Native Americans? People are idiots, that's my take. Just because you like someone of a certain race doesn't mean you like every other race.

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To me at least, a white racist is a white supremacist. Such a person would not bother to distinguish between races, as in, "I love blacks enough to marry one, but I hate Native Americans." Either you think white is the superior race, and all others are inferior, or you don't -- and, speaking as a mixed-race person who grew up in a multi-racial society with huge racism problems, it is my experience that the blacker you are to a racist, the lower you are in their estimation. In the racist hierarchy, Indians are higher placed than blacks. I personally don't believe that HK makes distinctions along the lines of "I love blacks enough to marry one, but I loathe Indians."

kuwisdelu said:

Actually, that's exactly the same as America.

Ignorance does not make something less racist. It only means it's racism based in ignorance rather than malice. Stereotypes are a kind of racism too, even if they're not intended to harm.

America, too, has a love affair with the noble savage, the war-painted Indian, and overly romanticizes that imagery. Klum is an additional level of disconnect away, but it's basically the same thing as what happens here.

America is no different in that regard

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This. There is hatred based racism and ignorance based racism. To me the shoot is quite possibly an example of the later.

aruna said:

… Such a person would not bother to distinguish between races, as in, "I love blacks enough to marry one, but I hate Native Americans." …

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You probably already know this, but it is possible to date or marry a black [or whatever] person and still not like anyone else of that race. Sometimes I can discern an attitude of "you're not like the rest" when I'm around whites. Sometimes they go so far as to say, "I don't see you as a black person," thinking that's a compliment when it only shows that they sometimes feel that acknowledging race is the same as being racist.

"I want to develop an understanding of why some people think culture belongs to everyone, and how to address it."

Hi Kuwisdelu!
I think the railing about your post is because it could have been more specific. Writers are always going out of their neighborhoods in the process, and sometimes miss the mark when representing a group, any group ethnic or otherwise.

We all write from our own perspectives, which have been molded by our upbringings and experiences.

It is hard to be wholly accurate when incorporating other cultures, but who am I to tell someone that they should not try it?

Is it possible that I can associate with another's experiences even if their upbringing and beliefs are different than mine? Is it possible to find common ground and communicate with others from different backgrounds?

I wonder if you are upset with unresearched stereotypes, and shouldn't discount the writers who do their homework and come to an understanding of other cultures; I am sure there are at least a few. I understand that it is frustrating to come across writing that is not a true reflection of the subject.

I think if you gave concrete examples, you would probably have everyone on board with your criticism, but most are taking it in a very general way, because it was stated that way.

Anywhoo, it is good to see you!

C.bronco said:

"I want to develop an understanding of why some people think culture belongs to everyone, and how to address it."

Hi Kuwisdelu!
I think the railing about your post is because it could have been more specific. Writers are always going out of their neighborhoods in the process, and sometimes miss the mark when representing a group, any group ethnic or otherwise.

We all write from our own perspectives, which have been molded by our upbringings and experiences.

It is hard to be wholly accurate when incorporating other cultures, but who am I to tell someone that they should not try it?

Is it possible that I can associate with another's experiences even if their upbringing and beliefs are different than mine? Is it possible to find common ground and communicate with others from different backgrounds?

I wonder if you are upset with unresearched stereotypes, and shouldn't discount the writers who do their homework and come to an understanding of other cultures; I am sure there are at least a few. I understand that it is frustrating to come across writing that is not a true reflection of the subject.

I think if you gave concrete examples, you would probably have everyone on board with your criticism, but most are taking it in a very general way, because it was stated that way.

Anywhoo, it is good to see you!

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Not Kuwis, but I think he meant it in a general way. Every ethnic group has a culture, and no culture is free from being appropriated and used in an insensitive manner. I also don't see most of the people who are ethnic minorities as railing against his post in any way. But that's my take on things.

Most likely. Anyone who writes fiction reaches out of his sphere. Some are accurate, and some aren't. I wouldn't get upset unless the piece in question was hailed as a masterpiece.

Sometimes, however, when making a general statement, it is helpful to have an example of what caused the statement initially. Otherwise, people take it in a number of directions.

I'm saying that while ignorance knows no national boundaries, it's easier to be educated about avoiding ethnic and cultural stereotypes in America than in Germany. To your question: no; I think an American should be as well educated as a Brit on racial matters. In Europe, though, the further east you go, the more homogenously white the societies, the more you will find people thinking in stereotypes. You and I probably would as well, if we grew up, say, in a village in eastern Russia and the only contact we had with non-white people was in TV and movies, and then only in stereotypes. Lack of exposure leads to ignorance. Though I agree that HK can hardly cite lack of exposure as an excuse.

I'm saying that I am not offended or outraged easily. Hardly ever, in fact. If I know the intention was hateful it's to me very different than knowing the intention is ignorance.

I remember when I first came to Germany and my husband-to-anounced we were going to marry. You should have heard the shit that came out of his aunt's mouth (she was the head of the family). She offered money to send me back to Guyana. I was a poor natived just after his money. I was this and that.
I did not get offended and I did not hate her. The first time we met, I walked in her door and gave her a big smile. From that moment on she loved me. Same with my second husband's family, who actually disowned him, cut him out of their will, refused to meet me or our children, for over 20 years, and all because I was black. Then he got ill and I was the one who looked after him and his mother was forced to meet me for the first time. Now she complains to me about the grandson who got all the property even before her death and treats her like dirt, rings me up and begs me to visit.
I believe in being patient, when the cause is ignorance. Education by example. I don't believe in railing against ignorant people helps them to understand or open up.

Of course, and rightly so. I wish I could give her a gentle tap on the shoulder and say, Ms Klum, make this thing right. You messed up and you have a responsibility. This is a chance to educate German viewers.

But it's early days yet. The show has just had its final, or is about to have its final, I think. Maybe she will do something.

Medievalist said:

It's still surprising to me that people have to be told that they are treating sacred ritual garments like fancy hats

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I think you'd be hard pressed to find many Americans who realize that the feathers on a headdress actually have a meaning, rather than an ornamental one. Just like, you'd likely have to explain that all tribes don't have the same cultural basis or use the same pieces for the same purpose.

For some reason the "bonnet" part of "war bonnet" seems to serve as a diminutive effect in non-native ears. I suppose it's because in the US bonnets are mainly for infants and children, or for a costume effect.

When we were in elementary school, we made construction paper tipis and popsicle-stick longhouses to go with a lesson about migrant tribes. For Thanksgiving, we made construction paper headbands and feathers, and everyone had to bring a paper bag from home so we could cut it into a fringed jacket to wear the rest of the day. 1st or 2nd grade, we did our school program, and I was assigned the part of Pocahontas (take a look at my profile pic, if you need reference to how weird that one is -- picture that face with a bad, short perm. Despite native heritage on both sides of my family, I looked like Annie.) No one complained; this was done every year and considered both normal and expected.

That, plus movies and maybe a vacation to a pow-wow or reservation where someone's made an "Indian Princess", is the typical extent of most American's knowledge of native culture - and it's sadly often portrayed as mono-culture. I mean, you know it's a bad sign when this episode of Saved By the Bell is considered socially responsible / culturally honorable. (Pertinent scene is at about the 14 minute mark. Zack comes into class wearing "native garb" to honor his dead friend.)

Stereotypes are easy. Crafts are fun. Explaining the truth is neither of those things, and it's not what parents or kids expect, so therefore it's labelled as "wrong," or "harmless," or (sadly, non-ironically) as "tradition" in many circles. With most portrayals of Native Americans locked into westerns or the occasional film about A.I.M. in the 60's / 70's, the entire concept of a native culture has been shuffled into history as though it no longer exists.

I can tell you the exact moment it clicked in my head that there was something wrong with that line of thinking. I was a kid, and while flipping channels I landed on a Native American stand-up comic (I have no idea what his name was.). During his act, he brought up the subject of kids playing "Cowboys and Indians." It was a longish bit, but the punchline was asking how it would look if kids ran around in a circle and whooping while crossing themselves and "playing Catholic."

Not many laughs, a whole lot of uncomfortable looks, and one ton of bricks' worth of comprehension.

I thought I would share something I saw on my facebook feed. I can't find the picture, but it was posted by a page about black womens beauty. The picture was titled, "Native Americans, the forgotten ones." The model was wearing "native dress."

I get that the were trying to bring attention to the segments of the black community which has native ancestry, but damn. The image was only slightly better than the top model shoot, and feeds into the desire within the African American community to be something other than "just black."

If I can find that picture again, I will try. And I'm sure there will be an influx of people claiming to have an indian princess as a great grandmother as a result of it. And that title, that title! Come on!

Kuwi, I just saw this book on Goodreads, and wondered if you know of it, have read it, what you think of it. I have no idea if it's good/recommendable or not.
It looks good, to me!
The author:

Sherman J. Alexie, Jr., was born in October 1966. A Spokane/Coeur d'Alene Indian, he grew up on the Spokane Indian Reservation in Wellpinit, WA, about 50 miles northwest of Spokane, WA. Alexie has published 18 books to date.

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That's fantastic! It's always great to hear of books that hit the spot!

Also, it's great to have literary heroes we feel we can't live up to -- I have quite a few and its why I'm never happy with my books -- but it's a good thing, as it means I always try to improve my writing.

Particularly grotesque examples of what we are talking about:http://jezebel.com/w-continues-fash...source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

W magazine recently sent fashion photographer Tim Walker and supermodel Edie Campbell to Burma, where they shot an editorial that juxtaposed Campbell (so white! so chic!) against the a background of the nation's "exotic" landmarks and citizens. It's gross and poorly conceived-of in every way that one would expect.

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