"no one owns culture"

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VRanger

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I apologize all of my own examples and frustrations are centered on Native America; that just happens to be my own experience.
:rant:

You could have simplified this a LOT by providing your perspective early on! Native American experience is almost unique in the world. In the very country in which Native Americans are born and live, the perception of their history and culture is almost entirely popularized by Hollywood movies.

Hollywood movies virtually never get it right.

As vexing as it is, as insulting as it is, you have to learn to laugh it off. My experience as a Southerner is more on target than you think. The South is constantly misportrayed, often in insulting and demeaning depictions. You can stay ticked off all the time, or you can learn to understand ignorance and not let it get to you. Because you're not going to stop it in the short term. It's a process that takes generations. It is happening and it is ongoing, but a little bit of it will always survive.
 
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Putputt

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To me, people are people. I don't care where they come from or what they look like.

While on the surface this seems like a progressive way of thinking, you may want to read up on why the colorblind approach to race is actually not that great. :)

ETA:
As vexing as it is, as insulting as it is, you have to learn to laugh it off.

Mm, I have to disagree with you again, VRanger. :D There are times when it's appropriate to laugh things off, but I think having your culture misrepresented isn't one of those times. It's insidious and harmful and laughing it off isn't going to get rid of it. You are right that it's a process that takes a heck of a long time to change, but laughing it off and dismissing it isn't going to get us there.
 
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kuwisdelu

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Native American experience is almost unique in the world.

There are ways the Native American experiences are unique, but there are aboriginal peoples all over the world who have had similar experiences, along with peoples and nations from non-dominant and non-Western cultures.

As vexing as it is, as insulting as it is, you have to learn to laugh it off.

We've been forced into that role for decades. I'd happy not to have to retreat back to it.
 
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Cathy C

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I think the problem here is that you've used the word "culture" in skin tone terms. But the word is so much broader than just skin. Merriam-Webster considers it: "the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time."

Culture is most often identified with a place and time, or socieo-economic income, so that all people living in inner city Atlanta have a different cultural experience than people living in inner city Detroit or inner city Brooklyn. And within the inner city experience are those cultures of varying stratas of wealth. So the PoC who share the cultural experience of pawn shops aren't the same as those that share the cultural experience of the opera season. The trick is that the skin color might be identical. Yes, it's quite possible that all within a skin color or race might share some experiences related specifically to their color, but the American PoC "culture" is so far removed from the British version, or the Australian, or the French or the Haiti or the German, or the Gabonese experience as to render it useless in discussion.

All a writer like myself can do when I want to show realistic diversity in my cast of characters is be cautious and try very hard to stay within reasonable guidelines based on how I imagine that character's background would have them to respondto a given stimuli. Does that mean I'm misappropriating the culture somehow? :Shrug: I have no idea. But I do try.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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Kuwi, not to be critical, but I think difficulties might arise here from the facts that some of us may never have heard your "No-one owns culture" comment said, and that you've not really defined the parameters of your discussion.

Perhaps your original post was just too brief to do the topic justice? I think we're going to end up arguing at cross-purposes if you don't take hold of the definitions.

This has felt like a bit of a straw man argument to me and without a specific example of something, it's hard to say.

I can see the point when people are talking about a relatively tiny, homogeneous and isolated population - like my mention in some other thread about the Haida Gwaii vs say, India or England. The larger, more divergent and less isolated any group is, the less one can make sweeping statements about their culture at all because it gets too hard to define narrowly enough to be at all useful in such a context.

Native American experience is almost unique in the world.

Actually, if it's about some other group heavily armed and with more wealth coming in and stealing your land and killing off your people, that's actually the experience of most groups of people at some point or other in history, unfortunately.
 
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slhuang

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Hmm, it's interesting to think about. Here's a stab at it, which is just sort of me thinking aloud, and therefore may be flawed :D :

I do not consider myself...having a culture, really. I mean, technically I do...Disney movies and Christmas and shit...but it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't think of it as mine. It's just there. I don't think of myself as owning it; it's all just peripheral stuff that was built into my life by circumstance, except those parts that I chose for myself.

If someone, feeling roughly the same way, projected those feelings onto other people...? I don't know. I wonder if someone would simply assume their mindset of not owning their culture applies to everyone indiscriminately?

(mind, that's not how I feel about it :p )

I have the opposite experience, and it makes me want to believe no one owns culture.

Let me unpack.

I'm first generation American, and my Chinese culture -- yes, I say "my" -- feels so close as to be on the other side of a tissue paper barrier, but I can't break through, and the voices are muted. You see, my father desired assimilation for us, and purposely excised as much of his culture as he could from our lives, from language to traditions to values, and it is something for which I will never forgive him.

This has not stopped Chinese culture from being tremendously important to me. From before I could remember I tried to insert it into my life on my own. Celebrating holidays, reading literature, attempting to teach myself the language -- etc.. I single-handedly forced (I didn't realize at the time how much the verb "forced" was accurate) my family to travel to Hong Kong so I could meet my family, by obtaining a grant for the trip. I studied Chinese culture and politics in college, by choice, along with Mandarin, and traveled to China to teach computer science.

But is any of this really my culture?

My family doesn't speak Mandarin -- they speak an obscure almost-dead dialect from a tiny region of China I've never been to, where I have no ancestors left, and my aunts and uncles only learned Cantonese after they emigrated to Hong Kong. I've never been able to reach fluency in Mandarin anyway, and my writing is atrocious. The food I grew up eating is a like a culinary pidgin, a blend of Asian and American, and there's no region in China where I can eat that food. Most of my family doesn't particularly celebrate Chinese holidays, or learn Chinese history, or consider our ancestry particularly important.

(The one thing I did grow up with was an understanding of the unstated nuances -- things like face, money, the style of high-context communication that is popular in China. That feels a part of me. I didn't get the fancy trappings, nothing tangible, but I got that.)

So: what is my culture? Am I appropriating, when I try to reach, and reach, and reach, in a futile attempt to fill this hole in my life that will always ache?

What about the cultures of my blood that are so much more distant? Does the fact that I'm 1/16 Scottish mean I can claim Scottish culture as "mine?" I don't think it does. But if I yearned for that piece of my heritage, studied it, immersed myself in it, as I have tried to do with the Chinese side of me -- then what?

I don't want anyone to own culture. Because that shuts me out. That leaves me on the steps, shivering, looking in, hungry and wishing. If the only culture we get to call our own is the culture we are raised with, then all I get is Disney and Christmas too, only fused onto a sad parody of celebrating the Autumn Festival by buying moon cakes for white friends.

I refuse that.

But if I get to wrap myself in a culture that is not technically my own, if it's okay for me to call it mine because someone stole something from me that was vaguely similar, then who am I to tell anyone else they should always be an outsider?
 
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VRanger

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"Colored person" was and is an offensive term.

"Citizen of color" was used by Martin Luther King, Jr. as early as 1963, and "person of color" has been used by PoC activists since the 70s and 80s.

You'll just have to trust me, NO ONE ELSE gets to.

Please read the stickies. In one of them, there is a link explaining why colorblindness reinforces racism.

No, I'm not going to read that sticky. That's absurd. I know that spurious arguments can be made to justify any faulty thinking, and that is faulty thinking. You see, I don't deal with a race or a culture, I deal with an individual when I meet him, socialize with him, and work with him. That doesn't make him the same as me, that makes him EQUAL to me. Differences in culture enrich the experience, they don't segregate it.
 

mccardey

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"laughing it off and dismissing it isn't going to get us there."

You don't need my permission to stay aggrieved, but it won't get you anything but stress. Don't forget what I said earlier about education. This is an ongoing conversation. If you want to take every sentence out of context of the entire conversation, there is no point in continuing.

Well, this is getting awkward...

VRanger, the stickies actually are a good place to start. It's a way of defining the terms of the discourse, just as we asked Kuwi to define this threat at the start. So we knew what we were discussing and could make it relevant.
 
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buz

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I think this a feeling that many others share, and I do think there's an interesting discussion to have there.

Whenever we do an awareness event at my university, we always have a bunch of people come by our booth, and say "I'm part Native American", and I ask what tribe, and they don't know. Especially among blacks who have native ancestry, there are very valid and tragic reasons they don't know. But nonetheless, I've been trying to think about what to say to this, and how to best encourage them to explore their culture in a healthy way without accidentally appropriating it, and without invalidating their experience.

I'm curious if you have any further thoughts on "not having a culture" yourself? After all, I'm also have Swedish and Polish ancestry, but I would not call myself Swedish or Polish, because I have no connection to those cultures or that part of my heritage. I'm wondering how I would explore that part of me.

I think there must be respectful ways to find your culture without appropriating one. Right?

Well, what I mean is...um... (bear with me, I'm not great at articulating this and sort of thinking as I go...)

I have English and Irish ancestry. I can say with absolute sincerity that Irish folk songs were a part of my upbringing because that is the truth. But that is the only connection I have to any heritage whatsoever, and I wonder if even that is appropriation, because it's not like my dad (who sang these songs to me) grew up in Ireland. If I go to Ireland and say I'm Irish, they'll kind of snort at that, because I'm clearly not, you know? :D I haven't experienced the things that make up the Irish identity; I can't call myself Irish. My English ancestors came here so long ago there is no real connection there, either.

I am American--but I don't really identify with the culture of a certain locale, cuz I grew up in one of those odd in-between areas, suburbs, with strictly standard news broadcaster American accent, and so on and so forth. I wasn't brought up with religion, so that part of culture doesn't exist for me, either. What remains is...I don't know. Pop music? Cartoons? The Pledge of Allegiance? Saying "how are you" immediately after "hi"? Stuff that doesn't mean much of anything to me. So, in my view, I do not have a culture that I am a part of, that I genuinely identify with. So what's left...trying to rely on my own internal life, is what I've come up with.

Which comes from where...?

I study other cultures as well as cultures from my own heritage; I find inspiring ideas and beautiful art and great writing therein. ;) They have shaped parts of my personality, helped me solidify concepts that tinged my view of the world, maybe even formed those views. It would be accurate to say that other cultures have been incorporated into my own...personal...culture--um, does that make any sense? Not by design...simply by studying Egyptian art or Assyrian religion or Buddhist concepts or Greek philosophers or whatever, as I do because I'm curious. I don't know if that's appropriation, and now I'm starting to question, but it's happened nevertheless...I've found greater meaning in cultures that I have no ownership in than my own, I think.

But, since I have no ownership in any culture but modern America, which I find no meaning in, does that mean I've appropriated everything that means anything to me?

So, anyway, what the hell am I saying. I'm not sure what I'm saying, lol. I think I was going somewhere at the beginning of this but I have no idea. Just stating thoughts as they come. :p

(considers that username is in Chinese when I'm not Chinese)

Uh. Fuck.

PS. My brain is seriously turning inside out and I'm really not trying to make any point whatsoever, lol. :p Just babbling...I may think of a point...eventually...
 
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Ken

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I'm with Kuwi on this. Appropriation is theft. A culture belongs to its people. It is not up for grabs. And like property, if it is stolen the thief should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Write a book with a character who is of another culture other than your own and face criminal prosecution. A white person should not portray a black person. A black person should not portray a white. Etc. Respect people's property. It is as much of a possession as a string of pearls or ruby ring. Even more so. It is an intrinsic possession as much as an arm or leg is. You would not go up to someone and take their leg. So do not go up to someone and take their culture !
 

kuwisdelu

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[lots of really important stuff]

My own experience is not entirely dissimilar, and I think there is a whole other discussion to be had regarding who (if anyone) "owns" culture between insiders — that is, people originating from a culture, including people of mixed blood, immigrants and their children, etc.

I'm half-blood. I didn't grow up on the reservation. I don't speak my own mother language. I've never danced.

But I don't believe in blood quantums. At the same time, I no longer think it's possible to be "part" Indian. I claim it now, even the parts I don't understand but want to understand, knowing in my heart that there's still so much I don't know, understanding there's still so much I don't understand.

I want my children's children to be Zuni regardless of whom I marry.

What does it mean to be part of a culture? I'm trying to figure that out myself.
 

kuwisdelu

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Write a book with a character who is of another culture other than your own and face criminal prosecution. A white person should not portray a black person. A black person should not portray a white. Etc.

If you read my posts, you should know I'm not saying this.

I wholly support writing about other cultures.

Respectfully.
 

kuwisdelu

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I have English and Irish ancestry. I can say with absolute sincerity that Irish folk songs were a part of my upbringing because that is the truth. But that is the only connection I have to any heritage whatsoever, and I wonder if even that is appropriation, because it's not like my dad (who sang these songs to me) grew up in Ireland. If I go to Ireland and say I'm Irish, they'll kind of snort at that, because I'm clearly not, you know? :D I haven't experienced the things that make up the Irish identity; I can't call myself Irish. My English ancestors came here so long ago there is no real connection there, either.

I think by now, one could count Irish American and Irish as different cultures, couldn't you?

Certainly African Americans have developed culture that draws upon but is distinct from African cultures.

I study other cultures as well as cultures from my own heritage; I find inspiring ideas and beautiful art and great writing therein. ;) They have shaped parts of my personality, helped me solidify concepts that tinged my view of the world, maybe even formed those views. It would be accurate to say that other cultures have been incorporated into my own...personal...culture--um, does that make any sense? Not by design...simply by studying Egyptian art or Assyrian religion or Buddhist concepts or Greek philosophers or whatever, as I do because I'm curious. I don't know if that's appropriation, and now I'm starting to question, but it's happened nevertheless...I've found greater meaning in cultures that I have no ownership in than my own, I think.

But, since I have no ownership in any culture but modern America, which I find no meaning in, does that mean I've appropriated everything that means anything to me?

No, I don't think that's appropriation.

I love exploring Japanese culture, I make lots of miso soup, and often draw upon Japanese culture in my own writing. I don't rationalize that therefore their culture is not their own and I can treat it however I like. ;)
 
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buz

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I think by now, one could count Irish American and Irish as different cultures, couldn't you?

Certainly African Americans have developed culture that draws upon but is distinct from African cultures.

Is Irish American a culture? Lol :D I have no idea...I don't *feel* it at any rate...

No, I don't think that's appropriation.

I love exploring Japanese culture, I make lots of miso soup, and often draw upon Japanese culture in my own writing. I don't rationalize that therefore their culture is not their own and I can treat it however I like. ;)

Oh good. Lol. Thank you for grounding me, was spinning off into space there...:)
 

Wilde_at_heart

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....cutting just to save on scrolling.....

But is any of this really my culture?
......
So: what is my culture? Am I appropriating, when I try to reach, and reach, and reach, in a futile attempt to fill this hole in my life that will always ache?...
But if I get to wrap myself in a culture that is not technically my own, if it's okay for me to call it mine because someone stole something from me that was vaguely similar, then who am I to tell anyone else they should always be an outsider?

That's exactly my point - that it's not so easy to define, especially in the modern era.

A lot of people move around - a lot sometimes - marry people of different backgrounds and have friends of myriad ethnic groups, etc. as well. And their relatives marry from yet more different backgrounds, etc.

I'm ethnically half-Scottish and though most of them didn't mix that much with non-Scots, my ancestors have been in North America since the 1700s on one side. I don't know much more about specifically Scottish culture than the average North American no matter what their background, beyond a couple of trips to Edinburgh. So if I borrowed anything from Scottish mythology or 'culture' would the OP consider that appropriation or think I'm being facetious by asking that question?
 

Putputt

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"laughing it off and dismissing it isn't going to get us there."

You don't need my permission to stay aggrieved, but it won't get you anything but stress. Don't forget what I said earlier about education. This is an ongoing conversation. If you want to take every sentence out of context of the entire conversation, there is no point in continuing.

Er, um, I wasn't actually asking for your permission. :D But yes, I agree that there is no point in continuing. Moving on...

I have the opposite experience, and it makes me want to believe no one owns culture.

Let me unpack.

I'm first generation American, and my Chinese culture -- yes, I say "my" -- feels so close as to be on the other side of a tissue paper barrier, but I can't break through, and the voices are muted. You see, my father desired assimilation for us, and purposely excised as much of his culture as he could from our lives, from language to traditions to values, and it is something for which I will never forgive him.

This has not stopped Chinese culture from being tremendously important to me. From before I could remember I tried to insert it into my life on my own. Celebrating holidays, reading literature, attempting to teach myself the language -- etc.. I single-handedly forced (I didn't realize at the time how much the verb "forced" was accurate) my family to travel to Hong Kong so I could meet my family, by obtaining a grant for the trip. I studied Chinese culture and politics in college, by choice, along with Mandarin, and traveled to China to teach computer science.

But is any of this really my culture?

My family doesn't speak Mandarin -- they speak an obscure almost-dead dialect from a tiny region of China I've never been to, where I have no ancestors left, and my aunts and uncles only learned Cantonese after they emigrated to Hong Kong. I've never been able to reach fluency in Mandarin anyway, and my writing is atrocious. The food I grew up eating is a like a culinary pidgin, a blend of Asian and American, and there's no region in China where I can eat that food. Most of my family doesn't particularly celebrate Chinese holidays, or learn Chinese history, or consider our ancestry particularly important.

(The one thing I did grow up with was an understanding of the unstated nuances -- things like face, money, the style of low-context communication that is popular in China. That feels a part of me. I didn't get the fancy trappings, nothing tangible, but I got that.)

So: what is my culture? Am I appropriating, when I try to reach, and reach, and reach, in a futile attempt to fill this hole in my life that will always ache?

What about the cultures of my blood that are so much more distant? Does the fact that I'm 1/16 Scottish mean I can claim Scottish culture as "mine?" I don't think it does. But if I yearned for that piece of my heritage, studied it, immersed myself in it, as I have tried to do with the Chinese side of me -- then what?

I don't want anyone to own culture. Because that shuts me out. That leaves me on the steps, shivering, looking in, hungry and wishing. If the only culture we get to call our own is the culture we are raised with, then all I get is Disney and Christmas too, only fused onto a sad parody of celebrating the Harvest Festival by buying moon cakes for white friends.

I refuse that.

But if I get to wrap myself in a culture that is not technically my own, if it's okay for me to call it mine because someone stole something from me that was vaguely similar, then who am I to tell anyone else they should always be an outsider?

Well, what I mean is...um... (bear with me, I'm not great at articulating this and sort of thinking as I go...)

I have English and Irish ancestry. I can say with absolute sincerity that Irish folk songs were a part of my upbringing because that is the truth. But that is the only connection I have to any heritage whatsoever, and I wonder if even that is appropriation, because it's not like my dad (who sang these songs to me) grew up in Ireland. If I go to Ireland and say I'm Irish, they'll kind of snort at that, because I'm clearly not, you know? :D I haven't experienced the things that make up the Irish identity; I can't call myself Irish. My English ancestors came here so long ago there is no real connection there, either.

I am American--but I don't really identify with the culture of a certain locale, cuz I grew up in one of those odd in-between areas, suburbs, with strictly standard news broadcaster American accent, and so on and so forth. I wasn't brought up with religion, so that part of culture doesn't exist for me, either. What remains is...I don't know. Pop music? Cartoons? The Pledge of Allegiance? Saying "how are you" immediately after "hi"? Stuff that doesn't mean much of anything to me. So, in my view, I do not have a culture that I am a part of, that I genuinely identify with. So what's left...trying to rely on my own internal life, is what I've come up with.

Which comes from where...?

I study other cultures as well as cultures from my own heritage; I find inspiring ideas and beautiful art and great writing therein. ;) They have shaped parts of my personality, helped me solidify concepts that tinged my view of the world, maybe even formed those views. It would be accurate to say that other cultures have been incorporated into my own...personal...culture--um, does that make any sense? Not by design...simply by studying Egyptian art or Assyrian religion or Buddhist concepts or Greek philosophers or whatever, as I do because I'm curious. I don't know if that's appropriation, and now I'm starting to question, but it's happened nevertheless...I've found greater meaning in cultures that I have no ownership in than my own, I think.

But, since I have no ownership in any culture but modern America, which I find no meaning in, does that mean I've appropriated everything that means anything to me?

So, anyway, what the hell am I saying. I'm not sure what I'm saying, lol. I think I was going somewhere at the beginning of this but I have no idea. Just stating thoughts as they come. :p

(considers that username is in Chinese when I'm not Chinese)

Uh. Fuck.

sl and buz, your posts are so...fucking...touching. Goddammit. Thank you for sharing that. I agree with you about not feeling like anyone owns a culture, probably because, like you, I always felt like I was raised outside of a culture.

I'm of Chinese descent. I spent my first few years in Indonesia, where I was told not to play with the native Indonesians because they're "dirty". Then I was moved to Singapore, where I was always "one of the Indo kids". Then California, where I became part of the large community known as the Asian-Americans. I celebrate Chinese New Year, but my Mandarin is heavy with an Indo accent and when I went to China for the first time at 16, I hated the place. I hated the food, I couldn't relate with the culture, I felt every inch an outsider.

What is my culture? Whenever people ask, I say Chinese-Indonesian, because that's probably the least inaccurate one. But what about the fact that I have the vocabulary of a seven-year-old when it comes to the Indonesian language, or the fact that I speak Singlish like a native Singaporean, or the fact that I identify most with Californian idelogies?

I feel a certain kind of jealousy when people identify with such confidence with a certain culture. I just want to roll over onto them and squish them under my hippo folds. :D

Um, anyway, but back to the OP, this is why I am always wary when I see people say that something in a book or movie isn't an accurate representation of a culture. If I were to write a book set in Indonesia, I imagine it would be vastly different from a book another Indonesian might write. BUT, kuwisdelu, I see what you're saying. There is artistic license, yes, but there is also a line, a limit to that. Choosing to ignore the facts because of laziness or entitlement or whatever else definitely crosses that line.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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My own experience is not entirely dissimilar, and I think there is a whole other discussion to be had regarding who (if anyone) "owns" culture between insiders — that is, people originating from a culture, including people of mixed blood, immigrants and their children, etc.

I'm half-blood. I didn't grow up on the reservation. I don't speak my own mother language. I've never danced.

But I don't believe in blood quantums. At the same time, I no longer think it's possible to be "part" Indian. I claim it now, even the parts I don't understand but want to understand, knowing in my heart that there's still so much I don't know, understanding there's still so much I don't understand.

I want my children's children to be Zuni regardless of whom I marry.

What does it mean to be part of a culture? I'm trying to figure that out myself.

It's a distressing problem. Who gets to decide who belongs to a culture and who doesn't. In some cases this can be a matter of political power (I could drop in a long rant about the laws in Israel about who is and is not a Jew). At other times it's been a matter of who is accepted by people in the culture and who isn't.

Let me drop in an uncomfortable thought and question. It seems to me that cultures are not static, that they flow through people and across time. They split and merge, so that one people can become many or many one.

I think it is hard to claim ownership of such a thing, the same way it is hard to claim ownership of a river.

The people who say "no one owns culture", however, don't seem to be taking this view. They seem to be saying that they can do what they want with the river of culture, whether it poisons it for others or dams the flow, or dries it up entirely.

Is it really a question of ownership or is it stewardship?
 

buz

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kuwisdelu

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I feel a certain kind of jealousy when people identify with such confidence with a certain culture. I just want to roll over onto them and squish them under my hippo folds. :D

Oh, I am constantly wrestling with my own identity, and what's okay and isn't okay for me to write about in the culture I claim as my own.

This is one of those dialogues that really has to occur at multiple levels.

There is 1) the dialogue between the insiders (PoC) and the outsiders (non-PoC), 2) there is also the dialogue among PoC, and 3) there is the dialogue of those of us who fall somewhere in between.

It often occurs that people of mixed race get lost, because there's still so much work to be done in the dialogue between PoC and non-PoC, and it always seems like we're being forced to choose a side. In the white world, it's so easy for me to put on a brave face (pun intended*) and claim my heritage. When I go back to the reservation? It's hard not to feel a bit like an outsider.

*Yes, it's okay to laugh. No, it's not okay to call a native man a brave just because I was being sardonic.

:Hug2:
 

Putputt

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Let me drop in an uncomfortable thought and question. It seems to me that cultures are not static, that they flow through people and across time. They split and merge, so that one people can become many or many one.

Oh shit, I think you hit the nail on the head. That makes a lot of sense. :D

I think it is hard to claim ownership of such a thing, the same way it is hard to claim ownership of a river.

The people who say "no one owns culture", however, don't seem to be taking this view. They seem to be saying that they can do what they want with the river of culture, whether it poisons it for others or dams the flow, or dries it up entirely.

It seems to me that the argument that "no one owns culture, therefore I can do what I want cuz I'm honey badger" is something thrown up in defence of laziness and/or entitlement.

ETA:

Oh, I am constantly wrestling with my own identity, and what's okay and isn't okay for me to write about in the culture I claim as my own.

AH! Thank you, yes, I feel the same way. I want to write a story set in Indonesia, with both native and Chinese Indonesian characters, but I felt like such a fraud doing it that I moved on to a different story.

This is one of those dialogues that really has to occur at multiple levels.

There is 1) the dialogue between the insiders (PoC) and the outsiders (non-PoC), 2) there is also the dialogue among PoC, and 3) there is the dialogue of those of us who fall somewhere in between.

It often occurs that people of mixed race get lost, because there's still so much work to be done in the dialogue between PoC and non-PoC, and it always seems like we're being forced to choose a side. In the white world, it's so easy for me to put on a brave face (pun intended*) and claim my heritage. When I go back to the reservation? It's hard not to feel a bit like an outsider.

*nods* Yuh, yuh, I totes get you. Even in Indonesia people are always calling me "bule", which means white person or foreigner (they do this affectionately, mostly when I behave in a very un-Indo way). I don't mind it, but it does remind me that I don't quite understand them at the level I wish I could.

*Yes, it's okay to laugh. No, it's not okay to call a native man a brave just because I was being sardonic.

:Hug2:

Wasn't gonna. :D:Hug2:
 
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kuwisdelu

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I think it is hard to claim ownership of such a thing, the same way it is hard to claim ownership of a river.

The people who say "no one owns culture", however, don't seem to be taking this view. They seem to be saying that they can do what they want with the river of culture, whether it poisons it for others or dams the flow, or dries it up entirely.

Is it really a question of ownership or is it stewardship?

I'm going to contradict myself from earlier and say that yes, "ownership" is not quite the right word from an insider perspective.

This is really difficult, because dialogues 1, 2, and 3 (see above) are all occurring simultaneously here, and they all require different nuances.

From the perspective of 1, among Native American tribes, assertion of legal ownership of culture is increasingly necessary to fight appropriation. (An example.) (An even better example.)
 
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Cathy C

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Richard Garfinkle said:
Is it really a question of ownership or is it stewardship?

Here is the real issue. I have a weird cultural background--German and Norwegian via an Italian/Mexican region of southern Colorado. Euro-Germanic heritage was the minority. There weren't many people of my skin color in school. I spent my summers in the hot sun picking crops in the fields because, even though my family verged on wealthy, my mother rightly believed I should understand and appreciate what hard work meant. I do. I'll never be homeless because of her lessons. No job that is legal and ethical is "beneath" me. So what is my culture? I can travel easily within a wide range of stratas, and feel utterly at home and feel welcomed. Is it such a horrible thing that I and my mother appropriated the migrant culture that made me proud of a whole group of people I didn't technically belong to? I don't think so, because I feel absolutely no ties to my ancestral cultures. :Shrug:
 

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I'm going to contradict myself from earlier and say that yes, "ownership" is not quite the right word from an insider perspective.

This is really difficult, because dialogues 1, 2, and 3 (see above) are all occurring simultaneously here, and they all require different nuances.

From the perspective of 1, among Native American tribes, assertion of legal ownership of culture is increasingly necessary to fight appropriation. (An example.) (An even better example.)

Legal ownership is necessary because we live in a society with IP Law. And it makes sense to assert it and try to recover lost IP. But, the deeper more personal level you framed this thread around does seem to be more about stewardship.

There's something I've been chewing over as you've been posing this interesting batch of threads. There are ways in which culture (and culturally tied religion) is better seen as like unto and an extension of family.

No one owns a family, but that doesn't mean that anyone can declare themselves a member of a family. And family is more than blood. It's language and customs and cuisine and personal history and so on. People can be tossed out of families (for good or bad reasons) and distant relatives can be welcomed in.

Eventually, families can drift apart, customs change so much, people lose track of each other, etc. That's the flow of time and life, but it is possible by work and caring to maintain family ties and identities while incorporating the changes.
 
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kuwisdelu

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No one owns a family, but that doesn't mean that anyone can declare themselves a member of a family. And family is more than blood. It's language and customs and cuisine and personal history and so on. People can be tossed out or families (for good or bad reasons) and distant relatives can be welcomed in.

I can relate to that. (Pun intended.)

(Has anyone noticed that I like puns?)

I have to post at least one more link from this blog. It's about holding babies.
 
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