Indicating someone's race...

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Katana

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I describe a character in my ms as being an African American. It's short, to the point, and tells the reader so much in just two words. But then it occurred to me that this may no longer be an appropriate descriptive. Is there a better (or more PC) way of describing my character, or is it still okay to call someone an African American? Thank you.
 

kuwisdelu

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If the character is African American, there's nothing wrong with saying it.

Same goes if the character is black.
 

Katana

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If the character is African American, there's nothing wrong with saying it.

Same goes if the character is black.
I'm relieved to learn that I haven't committed a faux pas. Thank you for your assistance. :)
 

ellio

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I just thought I'd point out that you can't determine if a black person is African American just by looking at them though.

Like, say, if the narrator doesn't yet know the person, "I saw an African American woman walk down the escalator", that would be a bad description. The black woman could end up being Dominican or Congolese, who knows (not the narrator at this point).

If you're writing in third or the character is someone the narrator is already aware of then describing them as African American is probably fine.
 

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Excellent advice here. And to clarify - black and African American are two different things. The later is a bit of a dated, "PC" (I hate that term, but it fits here...) status for black Americans that is becoming a very poor fit, especially as African immigration to the US continues to rise. Black is fine, okay, and dandy.

If anyone asks, tell 'em Hawk let you swipe in his race card. ;)
 

thedark

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I simply described a character as having ebony skin, just once, and just from her POV. It was subtle and effective. :)

Other characters in my WIP are more location-based, like a Scotsman, an Australian, a Canadian, etc.

It's always more about who they are and what impact they have on the storyline, than their race, for my novel. But I wanted it in there for description and for added detail for that particular character. :)

Good luck.
 

aruna

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The later is a bit of a dated, "PC" (I hate that term, but it fits here...) status for black Americans that is becoming a very poor fit, especially as African immigration to the US continues to rise.
... as well as black people of Caribbean, British, French, even German origin! :) We are everywhere. You just can't tell by appearance. So unless nationality (ie American) is important and has been established already, black is usually better.
 

kuwisdelu

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I simply described a character as having ebony skin, just once, and just from her POV. It was subtle and effective. :)

Personally, that would be eye-rollingly cliche for me.

And wouldn't work for a light-skinned black person.
 

Chrissy

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Excellent advice here. And to clarify - black and African American are two different things. The later is a bit of a dated, "PC" (I hate that term, but it fits here...) status for black Americans that is becoming a very poor fit, especially as African immigration to the US continues to rise. Black is fine, okay, and dandy.

If anyone asks, tell 'em Hawk let you swipe in his race card. ;)

QFT.

My son (half-black) would never refer to himself as African American. He's black, as far as he's concerned.

I guess my question is, do people refer to themselves as African American, or is it a just term that white people use to be PC?

If it's just white people (ime it is, fwiw), can we please just... stop already.
 

thedark

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Personally, that would be eye-rollingly cliche for me.

And wouldn't work for a light-skinned black person.

See, now I want to know if I'm being cliche. I hate being cliche. :) Thoughts?

The squeak of bedsprings came from the cell, then Derek returned to the door with Kay in his arms. The girl was ghostly white, and Ciara felt her ebony skin drain of color as she took in the unconscious prisoner. Derek didn’t pause on his way past her, and after a moment’s hesitation, Ciara fell into step behind him.
 

kuwisdelu

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See, now I want to know if I'm being cliche. I hate being cliche. :) Thoughts?

Sounds like it's third limited from Ciara's POV, and I could be wrong, but I have a hard time imagining a black girl thinking, to paraphrase, "color drained from my ebony skin".

And while people of color certainly experience pallor too, that imagery makes me imagine she's turning albino.

I'd avoid the reference to "drained of color" and focus on the coldness that usually comes with that feeling.
 
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thedark

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Sounds like it's third limited from Ciara's POV, and I could be wrong, but I have a hard time imagining a black girl thinking, to paraphrase, "color drained from my ebony skin".

And while people of color certainly experience pallor too, that imagery makes me imagine she's turning albino.

I'd avoid the reference to "drained of color" and focus on the coldness that usually comes with that feeling.

Thank you thank you - I really appreciate your feedback and your insight. :)
 

kuwisdelu

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My son (half-black) would never refer to himself as African American. He's black, as far as he's concerned.

I guess my question is, do people refer to themselves as African American, or is it a just term that white people use to be PC?

It can still be a useful term, whether it's commonly used to self-identify or not; it's just more people need to understand that it's not synonym or a more "PC" version of "black".

Likewise, I don't really self-identify as "Native American". I tend to just think of myself as either "Zuni", "Shiwi", or just "Indian". But naturally, I still talk about Native Americans and refer to myself that way sometimes when I'm talking to other people. And likewise, there are other terms like "American Indian", "First Nations", and "Indigenous" that all capture slightly different nuances, and then there is also "Alaskan Native" and "Native Hawaiian"...

I don't know enough about African American culture and black culture to draw out the same nuances in them, but I imagine they are there.

But that's also getting away from self-identity...

But in terms of the original question, "African American" doesn't really make sense as a "race". The "race" would be black, which would be more of a mouthful, though African American may exist as a more specific and nuanced ethnicity, possibly as an identity, within that sphere.

But even then, to what extent is "black" a "race" either? There are also black people who are not of African descent.

"Black" is very broad, and "African American" is very, very specific.

"African American" and "Black American" may sometimes be used interchangeably, in the same way that "Native American" and "American Indian" often are, but both of these pairs of terms also capture slightly different things.

...I guess the short and long of my point is both "PC" and "anti-PC" is almost always a cop-out to avoid thinking critically about these things. Nothing is ever as simple as "PC" or "not PC" or "just being PC".
 
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kuwisdelu

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PoC (person of color) is a neat one-size-fits-all. I might go with that.

"Person of color" is even broader than "black", and includes lots of peoples who aren't black.

"Person of color" is basically shorthand for non-white.
 

Chrissy

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My understanding, at age 42, is that "African American" was originally considered PC. I remember the time when it wasn't appropriate to say "black." Referring to people as black was wrong, rude, disparaging, etc.

It seems silly now. I'm not "anti-PC." I just feel, regarding the "African-American" designation, that it doesn't even really make sense to use that for black people who have been here as long or longer than I have (I'm technically some sort of European-American, I guess). But if people want to call themselves by this, for whatever reason, I have no objection.

But I run into people still, who look at my son, knowing he's my son, and apparently feel compelled to call him an "African American." Well no, he's an American, and he's black. It's not complicated.
 

kuwisdelu

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I just feel, regarding the "African-American" designation, that it doesn't even really make sense to use that for black people who have been here as long or longer than I have (I'm technically some sort of European-American, I guess). But if people want to call themselves by this, for whatever reason, I have no objection.

I don't think the length of time spent in America is really all that important when it comes to that sort of labeling. Plenty of people who identify strongly with their ancestry may refer to themselves as hyphenated Americans, regardless of how many generations ago their family immigrated.

I think "African American" can connote a kind of Pan-Africanism (though obviously referring to Americans), in the same way that "Native American" and "American Indian" tend to connote a kind of Pan-Indianism.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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And let's not even get started on white Africans... once you have to say European African American to have any idea who you're talking about, there is a problem.

Sounds like it's third limited from Ciara's POV, and I could be wrong, but I have a hard time imagining a black girl thinking, to paraphrase, "color drained from my ebony skin".

And while people of color certainly experience pallor too, that imagery makes me imagine she's turning albino.

I'd avoid the reference to "drained of color" and focus on the coldness that usually comes with that feeling.

Obviously in that particular scene, the whiteness is contagious :p
 

Chrissy

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I don't think the length of time spent in America is really all that important when it comes to that sort of labeling. Plenty of people who identify strongly with their ancestry may refer to themselves as hyphenated Americans, regardless of how many generations ago their family immigrated.
And like I said, I don't care. We should all call ourselves what we want to.

That said, black Americans =/= "African Americans."

Even if said black Americans happen to have African ancestry.

I guess I kind of want to get a bullhorn out and say through it that "black" isn't a bad word. But that's probably more due to local exposure to this sort of thing and not necessarily the OP.
 

kuwisdelu

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And like I said, I don't care. We should all call ourselves what we want to.

Yeah, but we're not always talking about ourselves, and sometimes we wish to speak ourselves in a broader context, and then those contexts matter.

That said, black Americans =/= "African Americans."

Even if said black Americans happen to have African ancestry.

I guess I kind of want to get a bullhorn out and say through it that "black" isn't a bad word. But that's probably more due to local exposure to this sort of thing and not necessarily the OP.

Oh, absolutely.

Developing a postcolonial vocabulary is a terribly difficult and complex thing.
 
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Chrissy

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Developing a postcolonial vocabulary is a terribly difficult and complex thing.
I don't think so.

I think the vocabulary would come along pretty easily if we weren't as concerned with how we describe each other as with how we treat each other.
 

kuwisdelu

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I don't think so.

I think the vocabulary would come along pretty easily if we weren't as concerned with how we describe each other as with how we treat each other.

It's not so simple.

For example, "Indian" is a term I use to identify myself, but it's problematic because it's a misnomer by Columbus based on a historical accident. Gerald Vizenor, an Anishinaabe writer and political activist, always writes "indian" in italics and lower case to emphasize this, and has coined the term "postindian" to describe the condition of those of us who live in modern times and are trying to move past the legacy of colonization.

For example, "American Indian" suffers from the same problems, despite clarifying the ambiguities between American Indians and Indians from the Indian subcontinent, but it also has important political uses since "Indian" is the language used in most treaties between tribes and the US government.

For example, "Native American" is problematic because it emphasizes "American" rather than our tribal sovereignty, and it also has a tendency to leave out Alaskan Natives and Native Hawaiians. And the issue of tribal sovereignty and nationhood is Very Important: we were not Americans by choice.

For example, "First Nations" is better, but it's not as well-known in the US, and so while emphasizing our nationhood, it does not have the political clout and usage that the term "Indian" gains us in American politics.

For example, "Zuni" is better because it's my actual tribe, but even this term is a name given to us by the Spanish (in our case, we're somewhat more fortunate, since at least it's based on an actual family of some of my relatives, rather than a foreign term or a word for us from another tribe), and is not based in how we actually refer to ourselves.

For example, "Shiwi" is ideal, because it's what people of my tribe call themselves, but generally no one except another Shiwi would be familiar with this terminology, making it not very useful in the wider world.

And what if I want to refer to myself in the context of other American Indians or Native Americans and Alaskan Natives and Native Hawaiians, which of course, I do all the time?

There is the good term "Indigenous", which I love because of its worldwide broadness, referring also to indigenous people around the globe, but it's non-specificity is also a hindrance if I want to discuss Native Americans or American Indians in the context of the US.

...tell me again how this is easy?

I'm only starting to understand how difficult it is. I didn't understand any of this stuff when I was younger.
 
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Chrissy

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Why can't I just call you kuwi, and treat you like a member of the human race? That seems pretty easy to me.

Do you need me to label you? (If so, just let me know which one of the eleventy billion above ;))
 

kuwisdelu

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Why can't I just call you kuwi, and treat you like a member of the human race? That seems pretty easy to me.

That's just colorblindness, which is also a cop-out.

Do you need me to label you? (If so, just let me know which one of the eleventy billion above ;))

I identify as each and every one of the quoted identities in that post, and yes, understanding and recognizing those multiple identities and what they mean is important to me.

Part of the problem of developing a postcolonial vocabulary is that the precolonial terms for ourselves have been stolen. Our identities have been stolen. But part of survivance means interacting with that colonial world and reasserting ourselves in it, which requires use of multiple terminologies. It requires a meeting of precolonial vocabulary with colonial vocabulary to develop a postcolonial vocabulary, which may often even mean new terminologies. Since we are speaking a language that was imposed on us by that very colonization, and its existing terms are an artifact of that colonization, expressing ourselves in it may require new terminology.

I recommend reading Gerald Vizenor for a very good critical take on all of this.
 
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aruna

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In Guyana, we officially have six races. Two of them are Indian. So the designation is Amerindian for indigenous people, and East Indian for people from India. Very simple! If someone says simply "Indian" in Guyana, the mean East Indian. The word Amerindian is generic for all Amerinfian tribes, but we can also be specific: Makushi, Wai-wai, Arawaks, Wapishana, etc. Few Guyanese really know the difference., but now we have a Ministry for Amerindian Affairs and political parties led by Amerindians, and they are gaining more and more clout. One of the main Amerindian leaders is of the iconic Allicock family -- the Allicocks are pretty famous in Guyana, and so it's nice to know that my paternal grandmother was an Allicock!
 
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