Rev. Jeremiah Wright: not the madman we were led to believe?

[small axe]

Did anyone else catch the Reverend Wright's hour on Bill Moyers/PBS, or his speech to the NAACP on CNN?

This is just my opinion, but the man seemed very thoughtful and sensitive ... far from the raving radical ALL the media seems to have painted him as or ALLOWED him to be painted as.

I don't want to claim a conspiracy afoot, but something very important was allowed to go unexplored (if not uncorrected) for weeks in the American mass media, in an important political campaign.

Here's a comparison of the soundbites we all heard looped and played to death, and then the sermon and context from which they came (or from which they were pre-meditatedly removed, for injurious political propaganda effect?)

What d'ya think?

Were the soundbites a fair representation of the Reverend Wright's points?

Does hearing the context change your perspective of Wright?

* I apologize for the lengthy QUOTE here, but feared cutting it apart, since much of the debate -- or scandal -- involved HOW the sermon was cut apart and taken out of its full context.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...0,705161.story

[VIDEO] Sound bite:
"We've bombed Hiroshima, we've bombed Nagasaki, we've nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye. . . . We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."


[SERMON] Excerpt:
"Every public service of worship I have heard about so far in the wake of the American tragedy has had, in its prayers and in its preachments, sympathy and compassion for those who were killed and for their families. And God's guidance upon the selected presidents and our war machine as they do what they do and what they got to do.

"Paybacks. There's a move in Psalm 137 from thoughts of paying tithes to thoughts of paying back. A move if you will from worship to war. A move in other words from the worship of the God of creation to war against those whom God created. And I want you to notice very carefully the next move. One of the reasons this psalm is rarely read in its entirety because it is a move that spotlights the insanity of the cycle of violence and the cycle of hatred.

"Look at the verse, Verse 9: 'Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rocks.' The people of faith, by the rivers of Babylon, how should we sing the Lord's song if I forget thee? The people of faith have moved from the hatred of armed enemies, these soldiers who captured the King, those soldiers who slaughtered his sons and put his eyes out, the soldiers who sacked the city, burned their towns, burned the temple, burned their towers. They moved from the hatred of armed enemies to the hatred of unarmed innocents. The babies. The babies. Blessed are they who dash your babies' brains against a rock. And that, my beloved, is a dangerous place to be.

"Yet that is where the people of faith are in 551 B.C. and that is where far too many people of faith are in 2001 A.D. We have moved from the hatred of armed enemies to the hatred of unarmed innocents. We want revenge. We want paybacks and we don't care who gets hurt in the process.

"Now, I asked the Lord, what should our response be in light of such an unthinkable act? But before I share with you what the Lord showed me, I want to give you one of my little faith footnotes. Visitors, I often give faith footnotes so that our members don't lose sight of the big picture. Let me give you a little faith footnote. Turn to your neighbor and say 'faith footnotes.'

"I heard Ambassador [Edward] Peck on an interview yesterday, did anybody else see him or hear him? He was on Fox News. This is a white man, and he was upsetting the Fox News commentators to no end. Did you see him, John? A white man. He pointed out, an ambassador, that what Malcolm X said when he got silenced by Elijah Muhammad was in fact true, that America's chickens are coming home to roost.

"We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, the Iroquois, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism. We took Africans from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism. We bombed Grenada and killed innocent civilians, babies, non-military personnel; we bombed the black civilian community of Panama, with stealth bombers, and killed unarmed teenagers and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard-working fathers. We've bombed [Moammar] Gadhafi's home and killed his child.

"Blessed are they who bash your children's heads against the rocks. We bombed Iraq; we killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to pay back an attack on our embassy. Killed hundreds of hard-working people, mothers and fathers who left home to go that day, not knowing that they would never get back home.

"We've bombed Hiroshima, we've bombed Nagasaki, we've nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye. Kids playing in the playground, mothers picking up children after school, civilians not soldiers, people just trying to make it day by day.

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards.

"America's chickens are coming home to roost. Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred and terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that, y'all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who's trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people that we have wounded don't have the military capability we have but they do have individuals who are willing to die, to take thousands with them, and we need to come to grips with that. Let me stop my faith footnote right there. And ask you to think about this for the next few weeks if God grants us that. Turn back to your neighbor and say: 'Footnote is over.'

"Come on back to my question to the Lord. What should our response be right now in light of such an unthinkable act? . . . This is a time of self-examination. The Lord said to me: 'How is our relationship doing, Jeremiah? How often do you talk to me personally? How often do you let me talk to you privately? How much time do you spend trying to get right with me? Or do you spend all your time trying to get other folk right?' This is a time for me to examine my own relationship with God. Is it real or is it fake? Is it forever or is it for show? Is it something you do for the sake of the public or is it something you do for the sake of eternity? This is a time to examine my own relationship and a time for you to examine your own relationship with God. Self-examination."

[cethklein]

I have to disagree. I still support Obama but there is no doubt in my mind Wright is a lunatic, in fact the parts of the Moyers interview I caught made that even more clear. He's your typical paranoid Black Panther-style quack. The world is always out to get him. I'm not saying he's not intelligent but he's definitely not right in the head. Forget about the GD America bit, look at some of the other things this guy said. "The government invented AIDS to kill black people"??? Come on.

The man is trying to save his own skin right now. Also him using the "they took it out of context" excuse makes it worse. That argument has NEVER worked for me. Anyone who uses it is desperate. We all heard what he said. What other context can there be for "god damn America"?

[KTC]

Originally Posted by cethklein

I have to disagree. I still support Obama but there is no doubt in my mind Wright is a lunatic, in fact the parts of the Moyers interview I caught made that even more clear. He's your typical paranoid Black Panther-style quack. The world is always out to get him. I'm not saying he's not intelligent but he's definitely not right in the head. Forget about the GD America bit, look at some of the other things this guy said. "The government invented AIDS to kill black people"??? Come on.

The man is trying to save his own skin right now. Also him using the "they took it out of context" excuse makes it worse. That argument has NEVER worked for me. Anyone who uses it is desperate. We all heard what he said. What other context can there be for "god damn America"?

I agree.

[johnnysannie]

Originally Posted by cethklein

The man is trying to save his own skin right now. Also him using the "they took it out of context" excuse makes it worse. That argument has NEVER worked for me. Anyone who uses it is desperate. We all heard what he said. What other context can there be for "god damn America"?

I never thought he was a madman. And it is not an excuse - his words WERE taken out of context as anyone who bothered to either 1. watch the entire sermon or 2. read the text thereof would know.

[donroc]

Yea, verily, believe what you will. The "out of context" argument imo is a specious argument. Please give context for the govt. deliberately created AIDS to kill blacks. The man is an actor and can create from the angry to the benign role to suit the occasion.

[xhouseboy]

Originally Posted by johnnysannie

I never thought he was a madman. And it is not an excuse - his words WERE taken out of context as anyone who bothered to either 1. watch the entire sermon or 2. read the text thereof would know.

"out of context" snake-speak for: 'Holy shit, batten down the hatches and pray that there's enough collective gullibity out there to somehow bail us out of this mess.'

[MattW]

He found out we created AIDS?!?!?

Quick - assemble the Secret Lily White Cabal that runs the Shadow Government!

[Jcomp]

Regarding the AIDS thing:

"A national survey in 2002 and 2003 by researchers at Rand Corp. and Oregon State University indicated that about half of African-Americans believe the virus was created on purpose."

Now, I personally think that's probably a bit skewed, just given the black folks I know. I wouldn't say we would outright accuse the government of that, because if half of black people truly thought that then there'd be more of a move towards some sort of a move toward rebellion (God, I'd like to think we wouldn't just stand around waiting to get obliterated at least*), but I do think that probably half of black people wouldn't be terribly shocked if it was revealed to be a government conspiracy.

* - note that this is within the context of assuming that 50% of black people really believe that the government created AIDS and freed it upon the public in the interest of getting rid of black people. I don't advocate violence or rioting, but if that many of us really fervently believed such a thing then I'd kind of expect us to do something about the perceived extermination.

[WendyNYC]

Given what happened with the Tuskegee Experiment (and that didn't end until 1972), it's not such a leap in logic. Not that I think AIDS was created and spread on purpose -- I don't -- but there are many examples throughout history of humans being that cruel to one another.

[Norman D Gutter]

I watched all of his keynote address to the NAACP convention. No, he is not a madman; he seems to be highly intelligent. His speech was certainly well prepared.

But, he seemed to be making the case for segregation. He gave four or five examples from studies 40 to 60 years ago that showed how Blacks are inherently different from Whites (i.e. not culturally different), but I can only remember two: Blacks learn differently, not because the education given them is deficient, but because they are different in their nature. Their music is different; hence they cannot learn and apply music as Whites do. I believe he was tryinging to make the case, knowing a national TV audience was watching, that Whites should do a better job of understanding the differences between Whites and Blacks ("different is not deficient"), but, taken to logical conclusions, his message was that Blacks and Whites should be separated for education, separated for music, etc.--not for the good of the Whites, but for the good of the Blacks, for their best development.

[Bird of Prey]

AIDS was brought over to this country by a white guy: a flight attendant. It was thoroughly traced. It afflicted the gay community, and killed a lot of gay men long before it seeped into ghetto areas.

Now, I know most people know this, but there's a point where inflammatory rhetoric such as Wright's is purely self-serving. Without racial tension, men like Wright fade away.

I think he's unethical.

[donroc]

More a leap to paranoia than logic regarding AIDS without evidence. What is the context for Farrakhan and Khadaffi? Judged by the company one keeps trumps guilt by mere casual association.

[donroc]

Blame Canada -- I believe the attendant was Canadian. Bath houses in SF and L.A. too. Yeah, a real plot.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Originally Posted by Jcomp

Regarding the AIDS thing:

"A national survey in 2002 and 2003 by researchers at Rand Corp. and Oregon State University indicated that about half of African-Americans believe the virus was created on purpose."

Now, I personally think that's probably a bit skewed, just given the black folks I know. I wouldn't say we would outright accuse the government of that, because if half of black people truly thought that then there'd be more of a move towards some sort of a move toward rebellion (God, I'd like to think we wouldn't just stand around waiting to get obliterated at least*), but I do think that probably half of black people wouldn't be terribly shocked if it was revealed to be a government conspiracy.

* - note that this is within the context of assuming that 50% of black people really believe that the government created AIDS and freed it upon the public in the interest of getting rid of black people. I don't advocate violence or rioting, but if that many of us really fervently believed such a thing then I'd kind of expect us to do something about the perceived extermination.

actually, what annoys me the MOST about this sort of theory isn't the fact that governments are, usually, very ineffective at keeping conspiracies secret...

... it's the continuing fight against ignorance.

Rev. Wright putting this theory out there AGAIN makes it sound like AIDS is so easily contracted that you can pass by someone in the street and catch it - which is what a theoritical government invention to destroy all the African-Americans would do.

As we know - that is NOT how you get AIDS. Princess Diana and many other outspoken advocates worked for years and years to convince and educate the public that you do NOT get it by shaking hands with an AIDS patient; that you don't get it by walking by them in a crowded room; that there is SO much more to catching this disease (which, thankfully, is nowhere near as lethal as it had been in the past) than just being in the general vicinity.

These advocates spent/spend years teaching the public that you don't get AIDS as easily as that and then this man steps up and pours out this crap about it being a government conspiracy. Folks, if you set out to create a bioweapon to wipe out ANYONE, would you really pick AIDS? It's a slow, horrible death that can take years to finally kill you; it's transmittable only by a certain number of ways (sexual contact, blood contact, using needles, etc.) and now not necessarily fatal. And it's NOT CAUGHT BY JUST BEING NEAR SOMEONE.

I'm surprised some AIDS activist group hasn't hauled off the good Rev. and given him an education on what exactly this disease is. Instead he's continuing the same ignorant spiel that had AIDS sufferers evicted from apartments and homes and forced away from family and friends. When Princess Diana cuddled that poor child in her lap or held that AIDS patient's hand while she sat next to his hospital bed she was trying to help educate people EVERYWHERE that this disease doesn't discriminate and isn't as easy to catch as some would think.

That's my beef.

time for tea.

[Appalachian Writer]

About the "not batting an eye" thing over the Hiroshima and Nagasaki incidents: Robert Oppenheimer looked at what the atomic bombs had done and said, "Now, I am become death." That quote has circumnavigated the globe. Americans carry some level of shame over the incident, and it is widely expressed. The success of "The Hiroshima Diaries" alone should verify that thought.

Reverend Wright's conscience is his own, however, dark and cluttered it may be. IMO, he is an opportunist seeking fame, the worst kind of individual to be given the "bully pulpit." His sole purpose seems to be the advancement of Jeremiah Wright, no matter what sullied stones he uses to reach the heights he desires. Now, through the inexplicable efforts of the American media, he's finally getting the national attention he's always wanted. He has become the big fish in the big pond, so to speak. This morning, almost every national news organization is following a series of speeches he's giving, one at the National Press Club.

It seems that to gain national acclaim or notoriety all one has to do is engage in bashing America, making unsubstantiated claims of criminal activity within the government, and shouting "racism" from the rooftops. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. must certainly be spinning in his grave! The numbers of brave souls who lost their lives during the Civil Rights movement must be weeping great tears when they hear a man, standing in the national spotlight, suggest that all their efforts to homogenize the American society were flawed because they failed to recognize that, not only the color of skin separates the races but that the races, themselves, should be separated because of biology and culture. I weep with them.

In his "I Have a Dream Speech," King asked that all men be judged "not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." If we hold Wright to King's standard, then he falls short, not because he's black but because he's a segrationist who seems to be trying to undo all things done in the name of equality.

"There endeth the sermon for the day."

[Jcomp]

Originally Posted by Sheryl Nantus

Rev. Wright putting this theory out there AGAIN makes it sound like AIDS is so easily contracted that you can pass by someone in the street and catch it - which is what a theoritical government invention to destroy all the African-Americans would do.

As we know - that is NOT how you get AIDS. Princess Diana and many other outspoken advocates worked for years and years to convince and educate the public that you do NOT get it by shaking hands with an AIDS patient; that you don't get it by walking by them in a crowded room; that there is SO much more to catching this disease (which, thankfully, is nowhere near as lethal as it had been in the past) than just being in the general vicinity.

These advocates spent/spend years teaching the public that you don't get AIDS as easily as that and then this man steps up and pours out this crap about it being a government conspiracy. Folks, if you set out to create a bioweapon to wipe out ANYONE, would you really pick AIDS? It's a slow, horrible death that can take years to finally kill you; it's transmittable only by a certain number of ways (sexual contact, blood contact, using needles, etc.) and now not necessarily fatal. And it's NOT CAUGHT BY JUST BEING NEAR SOMEONE.

I'm surprised some AIDS activist group hasn't hauled off the good Rev. and given him an education on what exactly this disease is. Instead he's continuing the same ignorant spiel that had AIDS sufferers evicted from apartments and homes and forced away from family and friends. When Princess Diana cuddled that poor child in her lap or held that AIDS patient's hand while she sat next to his hospital bed she was trying to help educate people EVERYWHERE that this disease doesn't discriminate and isn't as easy to catch as some would think.

That's my beef.

time for tea.

I'm going to disagree as far as how his putting out the conspiracy makes it seem that AIDS is so easily contagious. I don't think anyone in the black community suddenly believes that being near someone with AIDS will give it to you. Otherwise the whole of Africa would be extinct by now.

I'm pretty sure everyone still believes you get it primarily through sex. We've known that at least since Boyz N' the Hood when Ice Cube reminds his friend that you can still catch AIDS from certain alternatives. Arthur Ashe taught us sadly that it can come through blood transfusion and hospital screw-ups, and any number of junkies remind us that needles can transfer it as well.

[Jean Marie]

Originally Posted by Jcomp

Regarding the AIDS thing:

"A national survey in 2002 and 2003 by researchers at Rand Corp. and Oregon State University indicated that about half of African-Americans believe the virus was created on purpose."

Now, I personally think that's probably a bit skewed, just given the black folks I know. I wouldn't say we would outright accuse the government of that, because if half of black people truly thought that then there'd be more of a move towards some sort of a move toward rebellion (God, I'd like to think we wouldn't just stand around waiting to get obliterated at least*), but I do think that probably half of black people wouldn't be terribly shocked if it was revealed to be a government conspiracy.

* - note that this is within the context of assuming that 50% of black people really believe that the government created AIDS and freed it upon the public in the interest of getting rid of black people. I don't advocate violence or rioting, but if that many of us really fervently believed such a thing then I'd kind of expect us to do something about the perceived extermination.

I would hope, if it were even remotely true that at least some whites would be alongside the blacks in questioning this. I believe they would.

Originally Posted by Bird of Prey

AIDS was brought over to this country by a white guy: a flight attendant. It was thoroughly traced. It afflicted the gay community, and killed a lot of gay men long before it seeped into ghetto areas.

Now, I know most people know this, but there's a point where inflammatory rhetoric such as Wright's is purely self-serving. Without racial tension, men like Wright fade away.

I think he's unethical.

Quite polite, Bird. The guy's incredibly divisive, which is exactly what we need to get away from. He's attempting to take us down the wrong road. Someone must have told him, he's MLK's standard bearer. How awfully wrong they were. Whoever, upthread said he's more like his Black Panther brothers, is correct.

He's a nut job who's going to damage Obama's chances.

Obama needs to do another speech, quickly and distance himself, entirely, or he's finished.

[NikeeGoddess]

this thread alone is proof that there are good arguments on both sides.
but here is the problem - the RNC is running wright ads in north carolina and may still use them in the general election if it comes to that and/or if mccain doesn't get them to stop them.

wright just wanted to clear his name (as anyone who has been attacked by the media would want to do) so he went back into the limelight to prove he was a decent fellow. it's a three-edged sword for obama. 1. the controversy would have died down but now he's back! 2. now, that he's back 1/2 of the people who thought he was a madman no longer think he is. 3. wright is to obama and bill is to hillary: every time he speaks... makes you wanna roll your eyes and tell him to shut up already.

[robeiae]

Originally Posted by Jcomp

Regarding the AIDS thing:

"A national survey in 2002 and 2003 by researchers at Rand Corp. and Oregon State University indicated that about half of African-Americans believe the virus was created on purpose."

Now, I personally think that's probably a bit skewed, just given the black folks I know.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, big chunks of the overall population believe all sorts of ludicrous things. Big chunks can't find Mexico on a map. Big chunks can barely read. Big chunks think dinosaurs roamed the earth alongside of people. Big chunks think the world is gonna end , sometime in the next twenty years. Big chunks watch American Idol. Big chunks watch the NFL draft. Big chunks vote democrat.

As a group, people just aren't all that bright

[Seaclusion]

Big chunks don't vote at all.....Maybe that's a good thing.

Richard

[robeiae]

Originally Posted by Seaclusion

Big chunks don't vote at all.....Maybe that's a good thing.

Richard

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah...yeah, it probably is.

[Jcomp]

Originally Posted by robeiae

Big chunks watch the NFL draft.

What the hell is up with the Cowboys drafting another TE in the 1st round yet again, and a running back in the 2nd round after grabbing one in the 1st? We're perpetually too deep at these positions. We couldn't take a chance on a WR? Bad enough we gave Crayton an extension. God's sake...

As a group, people just aren't all that bright

True that.

[cethklein]

Originally Posted by MattW

He found out we created AIDS?!?!?

Quick - assemble the Secret Lily White Cabal that runs the Shadow Government!

Damn, I hope word doesn't get out about the Secret AIDS Cannon (SAC) being built at Area 51.

Originally Posted by Bird of Prey

AIDS was brought over to this country by a white guy: a flight attendant. It was thoroughly traced. It afflicted the gay community, and killed a lot of gay men long before it seeped into ghetto areas.

Now, I know most people know this, but there's a point where inflammatory rhetoric such as Wright's is purely self-serving. Without racial tension, men like Wright fade away.

I think he's unethical.

Exactly. Wright apparently forgot that aIDS was mainly a gay issue when it first came into the spotlight (although I find it hard to beleive he doesn't know that as many pastors and surely him given his bigotry, commented that AIDS was "punishment from God" back then.)

[Little Earthquake]

I have to disagree the that "taken out of context" statement is a load of baloney. People often quote the sentence or sentences from a speech, a textbook - the BIBLE - that are convenient for their cause, disregarding the rest of the context. Someone could copy and paste one or two statements from my posts here, or from my blog, or from my personal emails, and paint a very unflattering picture of me. Another person could select different passages and paint a very DIFFERENT picture.

After reading the full quote above, I have to say there are SOME things I agree with Rev. Wright about. Not everything; but rarely (if ever) do I agree with EVERYTHING someone believes. Now, that's only one speech of his that I've read, so I don't have a full opinion on him yet. But I'm inclined to say that he could very well NOT be the monster we've been lead to believe he is.

Now, I know most people know this, but there's a point where inflammatory rhetoric such as Wright's is purely self-serving. Without racial tension, men like Wright fade away.

Bird of Prey, you seem to be implying that racial tensions are purely the result of inflammatory rhetoric from Black preachers. I have to disagree. Racism is still pervasive throughout America, and to expect Black leaders not to talk about it is foolish. To shame Black people for being mad about racism is not only foolish but unkind! Shall we sweep unattractive prejudices under the rug and hope they die a slow, painful death? That's not how paradigms are changed.

[Bravo]

Originally Posted by Jcomp

I don't think anyone in the black community suddenly believes that being near someone with AIDS will give it to you. Otherwise the whole of Africa would be extinct by now.

just because it doesnt make sense, doesnt mean that people dont believe it.

i dont have time to look up studies on this, but there's lots of anecdotal evidence that shows widespread misinformation about AIDS in africa. lots of people believe it can be cursed on you by someone else, some believe you can step on something and get AIDS, it goes on and on. in fact, s. africa's health minister, the guy in charge of handling HIV in his nation has said such ridiculous things like those with "HIV should eat garlic and beetroot."

i think wright's statements were unfortunate but way overblown.

people might want to wish away the tuskegee experiments, but the simple fact is that they did exist and they did traumatize the black community.
add that to everything else this govt has done to blacks and you have created a cycle of mistrust and animosity.

so should wright have tried to bridge that gap and tried to "change" things? of course.

but the media is holding him to a different standard of other preachers, preachers who are rampant in evangelical churches, southern baptists, etc. many of those preachers teach hate, fear, etc. many of president bush's "spiritual mentors" from robertson to falwell have made far far worse statements than what wright said.