A Question for Those of You Who Don't Live in the U.S. (if there's any)

[Paichka]

I consider myself very well educated about the rest of the world -- of course, when you're going to deploy to a certain, the Army does a pretty good job of making sure you're up to speed on geography, local customs, etc. When you travel through Kuwait on your way into Iraq, for example, there are mandatory classes on language, customs, etc. So that you as an American can interact with the Iraqi populace -- you're supposed to consider yourself an ambassador of sorts, and remember always that the way you act reflects not only on yourself, but on your unit and your country as a whole.

There are a lot of ignorant Americans -- and a lot of ignorant Soldiers, too, whose actions are an embarrassment to not only the military, but to America itself. That being said, we do not by any means have the corner on the ignorant, rude, arrogant people market. I think that Americans tend to be more...eh...showy about who we are, and for that reason the "bad apples" tend to stick out in people's minds more than the jerk-offs from other countries.

When I went to South Africa, I was 19 years old and in college, working on a fossil dig in Mohale's Gate. That's near-ish (1 hour north, IIRC) to Johannesburg. Anyway, we went to a bar that our cook's husband owned (they were both...I think 'Afrikaaner' is considered impolite now, but South Africans of Dutch descent). At the bar, the girls (all dressed pretty conservatively -- loose t-shirts and jeans) were pestered UNMERCIFULLY by the local men. We're talking dudes the same age as my father, or older, who were harrassing us to go home and sleep with them. One dude (the mayor!) got plowed and told me he wanted to take me home and eh...do bad things to me. Exact quote. Another guy, affiliated with the University of Witswatersrand, told me he wanted to take me home and tie me up in his basement. I was, to say the least, a little freaked out. The whole reason, apparently, was because all they knew of American girls they'd learned on MTV -- the general consensus was that American girls were slutty.

The point is, I've met rude, ignorant people of every stripe and nationality. I think a lot (not all, but a good portion) of people's complaints about America are just because we make an easy target. We COULD do a better job of being less culturally bankrupt. I mean really. Paris Hilton? Britney Spears? Yeesh.

(Slightly funny and off topic: on my first deployment to Iraq, I had two girls in my platoon that I used to have wait in the humvee when we went out on missions, because they were blonde. The local men (relatively well educated and worldly) thought that blonde women were free prostitutes.)

[JimmyB27]

Originally Posted by Jersey Chick

Americans are called Americans because it's the United States of America. We aren't claiming the entire North American continent (for the most part) - what else would we call ourselves?

USians? That would fit with the arrogant, selfish view everyone seems to have of Americans.

My experience of USians is actually a very positive one. I met several while I was travelling, and I think this might partly be why my experience is coloured so favourably (two examples there of one thing that does bug me about you guys - it's not colored and favorably dammit! ).
I even had a really good conversation about religion with one guy in Sydney (I'm atheist, he was Christian). Some of his arguments were even approaching the logical. And it was all friendly and amiable like - no flame wars or anything.

[Jersey Chick]

USians - it wouldn't be long before it was U-Assians

[Cranky]

You mean it isn't already?

[L M Ashton]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

However, those Americans who are expats there tend to be well respected regardless of how people feel about the American government now. Individually I think Americans handle themselves very well overseas -- there used to be a saying about the "ugly Americans" -- arrogant, ignorant, loud and obnoxious -- but there isn't much of that anymore. Occasionally you do get some of those (navy guys on leave, drunks at the bar, etc.) but it's not like only Americans act obnoxiously. I've traveled overseas a lot and I've never been treated badly or criticized by identifying myself as American. Granted, I'm also extremely well-behaved.

This country still sees a fair number of the ugly Americans, unfortunately. Happily, I've also encountered some more than perfectly pleasant Americans. And many people here hate Americans at least partially because of the ugly American bit, but also partially because Americans (in terms of the government, anyway) tends to be regarded as the bully on the playground, sticking their nose in everyone's pie and telling everyone what to do. At least, those were the words that were expressed to me.

Hollywood really doesn't help. At all. White women are sluts and all white women will sleep with anyone, anywhere, anytime - pretty universal belief. All white people are rich. All white people drink, smoke, do drugs. The streets are paved with gold. The misinformation goeth forth.

But there's a dichotomy here with white people regardless - we're both worshipped in a sense while universally also reviled. *shrugs*

At least, that's among the locals who are not well-travelled, which is most. Those who've actually lived abroad understand that that's not reality.

Regardless, attitudes towards Americans in general aren't great, so I make sure everyone knows that I'm Canadian.

[icerose]

I would love to travel but sadly it costs more than I can afford at the moment. I didn't even have the opportunity to travel out of my home state until I was 16. I have only been to five states outside of my home state for a total of 3 trips out of state. I would love to travel, can't, but love to. Someday perhaps.

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by L M Ashton

Regardless, attitudes towards Americans in general aren't great, so I make sure everyone knows that I'm Canadian.

I'm the opposite. I make sure people know I am American, and a damn good one, too. The only way you can change minds is to be a model example. I make sure I go out of my way to meet people, learn to speak their languages, help them out if possible, and just be humble when it comes to their cultures and beliefs. Meanwhile, I'm proud to be an American and I'm not going to hide. If I can't hide my race, I sure am not going to hide my nationality.

[HeronW]

Again, as an American abroad, the first words I wanted to learn in Hebrew (other than 'where my cats' since they were traveling over here too) was 'please' and 'thankyou'. I'm a loss with languages, mea culpa, but I try to be polite and appreciative. When we took a trip to Turkey, and later to Serbia/Croatia, again I wanted to know 'thank you' in the relevant languages. It ain't much, but that courteous reply and a smile can get you pretty far when you're away from home

[TsukiRyoko]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

Dama, please do understand that some Americans do find the word "gringo" offensive. You may be well-intentioned when you use it, but there is a bad connotation for many. So please do understand and respect why some people are offended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo


Chinese call westerners Gweilo (foreign devils). It has a long history and many don't consider the term derogatory anymore, even though it still literally means "evil man." Sometimes it can even be a term of endearment (I used it in my novel as such). However, it's always considered impolite to call someone a Gweilo in their presence, whether or not they mind, especially if we don't know them well. So in a way, I think calling us Americans "gringos" is rather impolite, even if it's not derogatory.

Personally, I don't see how it can be insulting. It sounds a lot catchier than "white person" at any rate. I guess I don't use racial slurs seriously enough to truly, honestly be offended by any of them.

[cray]

Originally Posted by TsukiRyoko

Personally, I don't see how it can be insulting. It sounds a lot catchier than "white person" at any rate. I guess I don't use racial slurs seriously enough to truly, honestly be offended by any of them.

young'in

[TsukiRyoko]

Originally Posted by cray

young'in

...Damn it *eyes well up with tears, runs off*

[melaniehoo]

I've lived in Mexico for over a year now and I'm a gringa. I call myself gringa, my husband calls me that, and our American AND Canadian friends are gringos. There's even an item at a restaurant we go to called a gringa. My husband jokes he'll have the gringa and I playfully remind him he already has one.

My point is I've never heard it used in a derogatory way. That's what they call us, same as we'd call someone Asian or black. I don't have an explanation for the why - although I think Ray & Dama covered that - but if they want to call someone stupid, they call them idiota or cabron.

I'm often called guera, which to my understanding is another word for white/pale/blond person and it's not considered offensive either. A fruit stand we frequent is called La Guera because she's pale with light eyes. For whatever reason skin color is still used to define people, but I don't see them discriminating because of it.

[Tirjasdyn]

Originally Posted by icerose

I will add in another "knowledge about other countries" story. We had an exchange student from Brazil at our school. One of my classmates asked if he rode an elephant to school every day. This kid was from the captial of Brazil, Brasilia, with a population of about 2 million people. He lived downtown, right in the middle of the city and said he'd only seen an elephant once in his life.

The rest of us laughed because this classmate of ours didn't even know there were cities in Brazil, how sad is that? However, this doesn't mean everyone is that ignorant, only those who choose not to educate themselves. I don't know as much about the cultures of the world as I would like to, but I love learning about them. I sadly also don't retain names like I'd like to, so if someone asks me a question about some capitol or country, chances are, at one time I knew, those kinds of things just don't like to stick in my brain.

Heck, I can't even remember the names of my characters most of the time, I keep a list of all places, people, and objects at the bottom of my WIP.

I'm still caught on the elephant remark...

[JimmyB27]

Originally Posted by L M Ashton

...Americans (in terms of the government, anyway) tends to be regarded as the bully on the playground, sticking their nose in everyone's pie ...

Mixing their metaphors...

[Tirjasdyn]

Originally Posted by Paichka

(Slightly funny and off topic: on my first deployment to Iraq, I had two girls in my platoon that I used to have wait in the humvee when we went out on missions, because they were blonde. The local men (relatively well educated and worldly) thought that blonde women were free prostitutes.)

When I lived in Southern Mexico my housemate and I were followed home every day by a contingent of men for this very reason. We were never forced to do anything but they all wanted a "cheap ride" so to speak.

Another time I was at a spa in Cozumel. The masseuse called me a fat cow in Spanish as she was working. When she was done I told her she paid for her own work in her insult. She was so shocked and she tried to apologize. I told the management I came to relax not be insulted. I've done the same to American masseuse who thought I was asleep.

It goes both ways.

:shrug:

[melaniehoo]

Originally Posted by Tirjasdyn

When I lived in Southern Mexico my housemate and I were followed home every day by a contingent of men for this very reason. We were never forced to do anything but they all wanted a "cheap ride" so to speak.

Another time I was at a spa in Cozumel. The masseuse called me a fat cow in Spanish as she was working. When she was done I told her she paid for her own work in her insult. She was so shocked and she tried to apologize. I told the management I came to relax not be insulted. I've done the same to American masseuse who thought I was asleep.

It goes both ways.

:shrug:

I'm actually going to dye my hair darker because I'm so sick of the harassment.

[Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by SPMiller

Well, to use your example, some black people call each other nigger--or, rather, nigga if we're going to spell the pronunciation phonetically. Does that mean it isn't often used as an epithet against blacks? No. Just because a word can be used harmlessly (for some definition of harmless) doesn't mean its use is tolerable.

Tolerable to you and tolerable to me are different things. Without exception, every Spanish speaker I know either considers the word harmless, or else says it is gibberish and a recent invention. I can trace the roots of the word nigger and understand why it is offensive.

I can't do the same thing with gringo--and honestly, if I started getting angry about it now, it'd be false outrage.

Originally Posted by Dollywagon

But your example is one that has, in recent years, mostly been seen as a derogatory term used by whites against blacks.

If in this instance the OP had said they had done a stereotyping test in class and Gringo=Givers, would you still be saying the term Gringo is derogatory?

For that matter if I'd said in England, Yanks=Americans and our test came out that Yanks=Greedy, then would it make the term derogatory?

I think you are just objecting that the stereotyping came out as stupid but are applying it to the epithet.

Also, I get the impression that EVERY white person coming through that area would be called a gringo. It is slightly less offensive than "cracker" or "kraut" --and honestly, I like both foods.

US culture, especially in this era, leans toward hyper-preciseness, and anything less is considered rude. Frankly, this is stupid. The physically challenged are still cripples, African-Americans are still black, and no amount of bloated feel-good English is every going to make me start calling blind people The Visually Challenged.

Mexicans and some latinos use gringo because to them americano appears to be a broader term, meaning anyone from North, Central, or South America. I argue that their use of the term is mostly independent of prejudice, and until I see reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to lump the people who are offended by "gringo" in with the crowd who'd rather say Handi-Abled than use a real word for fear that someone may shoot them a funny look.

Originally Posted by DamaNegra

No, being from the US automatically makes you a gringo.

Wait, wait-- someone who can provide an answer!

Do you use gringo because it is easier than saying Estadounidense? If someone repeatedly insisted on using Estadounidense, would they seem pretentious?

Originally Posted by Jersey Chick

Americans are called Americans because it's the United States of America. We aren't claiming the entire North American continent (for the most part) - what else would we call ourselves?

American is a hell of a lot easier and less pretentious, in English, than saying Citizen of the United States of America. Trying to use some other part of the country's name for our adjective comes off as even more pretentious--

I'm a uniter! (For maximum value, imagine saying this with Bush's voice.)

I'm a stater! (What do I state?)

Originally Posted by cray

young'in

Originally Posted by TsukiRyoko

...Damn it *eyes well up with tears, runs off*

Tsuki!!

**Throws Cray out of a 1st story window**

[Mr Flibble]

I'm a uniter! (For maximum value, imagine saying this with Bush's voice.)

I'm a stater! (What do I state?)

You're a Yank.

What do you yank?

FWIW, my husband says Americans are all evil. Look what they did to those poor people in Deliverence! He has a panic attack everytime someone does a pig impression.

[melaniehoo]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

snip


Also, I get the impression that EVERY white person coming through that area would be called a gringo. It is slightly less offensive than "cracker" or "kraut" --and honestly, I like both foods.

US culture, especially in this era, leans toward hyper-preciseness, and anything less is considered rude. Frankly, this is stupid. The physically challenged are still cripples, African-Americans are still black, and no amount of bloated feel-good English is every going to make me start calling blind people The Visually Challenged.

Mexicans and some latinos use gringo because to them americano appears to be a broader term, meaning anyone from North, Central, or South America. I argue that their use of the term is mostly independent of prejudice, and until I see reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to lump the people who are offended by "gringo" in with the crowd who'd rather say Handi-Abled than use a real word for fear that someone may shoot them a funny look.


snip

The first time I heard my Mexican sister-in-law refer to her nephew as a "negrito" I almost fell over. I was very offended and told my husband he should tell her that's an awful thing to say. He explained that they don't think of it that way - the kid had gotten a lot of sun that day and looked darker than normal so she called him negrito.

I still think it's awful but I do understand where it comes from (sort of, and begrudgingly). The spanish word for black is negro, so there is some logic.

I just looked up gringo in my Spanish-English dictionary and it says: gringo, foreigner (from a non-Spanish speaking country); Yankee; fair-haired man/woman.

[Bartholomew]

Originally Posted by melaniehoo

I still think it's awful but I do understand where it comes from (sort of, and begrudgingly). The spanish word for black is negro, so there is some logic.

It's perfectly logical and very common. DamaNegra -- Black Lady. You think it's awful because...?

[TsukiRyoko]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

It's perfectly logical and very common. DamaNegra -- Black Lady. You think it's awful because...?

Frankly, I find "merci" to be extremely offensive. Don't thank me in a language I only slightly understand, you bastards...

[melaniehoo]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

It's perfectly logical and very common. DamaNegra -- Black Lady. You think it's awful because...?

Because my culture (US) has drilled it into our heads that everything must be PC, as you stated. Living here has relaxed me a lot.

[tallus83]

Actually, PC is a culture created in the 90's, Melanie. Created by the Clinton Gang, I believe.

Us oldsters don't care about it and ignore it.

Actually, a lot of us take great joy in making fun of the idiots who insist on being PC. It's so satisfying to see them break into tears. BWAHAHAHAHA!

To be serious, for a second.

The comment that the US needs to get over the "If it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking German" attitude is correct. It's in the past.

But, by the same token a few Brits still think they have an Empire that spans the world. (Sorry, but some still view themselves that way and I do really like them as a nation) You don't, so get over it.

France, you haven't been any good since around 1812. So you can drop the attitude.

[melaniehoo]

I didn't say it wasn't a new phenomenon. Bartholomew brought it up as an American thing and I gave an example of how other cultures don't worry so much.

I am short. NOT vertically challenged. I think there's one for left-handers, too, but I don't recall the term.

[KTC]

Originally Posted by xiph

I've been hanging around a forum where some of the members who don't live in the U.S. hate everything about "America" a little too much it's kind of scary. They're all a bunch of brats, though, so I'm gonna be reasonable here and assume their distorted attitude is partly due to their unstable hormones.

That being said, I'm interested in knowing how people outside the U.S. view Americans. I'd appreciate it if we can all act like mature adults and have a civil discussion. (That request may be unnecessary here, but I still like to put it out there just in case. Clearly, I've been hanging around self-righteous and opinionated teenagers a little too long.)

Edit: ...I find it interesting that most people assume I'm an American (as in a U.S. citizen). I'm not. I don't particularly feel defensive when someone is being anti-American, I just find it fascinating that people can spend that much energy being anti-something. Hope there's at least a good reason for that.

Some answers are helpful, others aren't. Thanks either way. Carry on with this enlightening discussion.

I judge people on a person to person basis. I don't care about borders. What are they? Have you ever touched a border? They don't exist.